• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Dever

Member
Dec 25, 2019
5,352
Would it be fair to say Bayonetta has an outsized cultural relevance compared to its actual sales? So it's kind of opposite of the Avatar situation, where it was the biggest movie ever but then everyone forgot about it. I think Okami is a bit like this, as well.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,095
Would it be fair to say Bayonetta has an outsized cultural relevance compared to its actual sales? So it's kind of opposite of the Avatar situation, where it was the biggest movie ever but then everyone forgot about it. I think Okami is a bit like this, as well.

It would absolutely be fair to say that, yes. Especially among gaming forums. Most people outside of the gaming forum bubble don't know or care about Bayonetta at all. It's not a big franchise.
 

NaikoGames

Member
Aug 1, 2022
2,718
Would it be fair to say Bayonetta has an outsized cultural relevance compared to its actual sales? So it's kind of opposite of the Avatar situation, where it was the biggest movie ever but then everyone forgot about it. I think Okami is a bit like this, as well.
pretty much, another example of cultural impact but little sales is probably Silent Hill lol
 
Would it be fair to say Bayonetta has an outsized cultural relevance compared to its actual sales? So it's kind of opposite of the Avatar situation, where it was the biggest movie ever but then everyone forgot about it. I think Okami is a bit like this, as well.
I remember back when the the anger over Bayo2 being a Wii U exclusive happened and I was just completely taken a aback by how huge and vicious of a moment that was given that the original game seemed to have very modest sales.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,345

Tsumami

Member
Feb 3, 2022
5,091
The fact that people wont just own up and are still trying to say that Kamiya was wrong is astonishing to me. I mean, no its not really surprising but its seriously pissing me off. Because you think he's mean on twitter he deserved getting harassed and made fun of when he was literally RIGHT? Grow up holy shit
 
Apr 5, 2022
458
I probably wouldn't mention taxes and expenses alongside the other points. As a contractor, those expenses outside of basically living expenses can be written off as business expenditures and people are typically expected to pay taxes.
Even not as a contractor, I pay taxes and occasional business expenses. I get that $1000/hr isn't going directly into a VA's wallet...but then my salary isn't going directly into mine either. Not sure I buy this as the strongest line of argument.

EDIT: And yes, I know self-employed/contract workers pay their own payroll tax and insurance, etc.

DOUBLE EDIT: Apparently SAG-AFTRA offers health insurance plans, which makes sense. I assume the premiums come out of union dues, then.
 

Apath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,121

What do voice actors do between gigs? Generally speaking, is the gap due to a lack of work or because each role requires a substantial amount of preparation? If it's the former, it sounds like something which should be viewed as a part time job and I am not sure I agree with it requiring better compensation. If it's the latter, I agree the role should be more heavily compensated.

Also, taxes are a weird inclusion in that figure. Literally every job's compensation is discussed as pre-tax. Expenses and manager cuts are absolutely legitimate and often overlooked.
 

MoogleWizard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,704
A lot has been written about learning not to jump to conclusions. I have learned my lesson. I fell for Taylor's emotional plea and believed her, despite the red flags that were there.

What I haven't really seen addressed so far was the embarrassing Twitter witch hunt that happened in the original thread. The topic was a dispute between a worker and a corporate entity on a professional level, but people dragged unrelated things into it to start a pissing contest. People dug through Kamiya's, Taylor's and Hale's Twitter profiles, desperately trying to find some dirt on them, any problematic comment or like that they could use to start a mob and accuse other users who didn't support "the good side" of being problematic or whatever. None of that had relevance to the actual topic, which was whether Taylor's allegations against Platinum Games were true.

Whatever Kamiya, Taylor or Hale wrote or liked about foreigners, trans rights or autism has no relevance to what they did or didn't do in a professional capacity. There was a new twist on almost every page, the good guy became the bad guy and vice versa. And with this came disingenuous insinuations and accusations about other users. If you were skeptical of Taylor's claims, you were a sexist or a corporate bootlicker. A few screenshots later, the tables turned. If you believed Taylor, you endorsed harassment or were a transphobe. How Hale's autism comments played into this I have no idea, I stopped reading when that was brought up. Anyone who partook in that circus had no interest in the actual topic. They just wanted a pissing contest and showed that they have the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old who can't even grasp the most basic levels of nuance. That was the most pathetic aspect of the "discussion" in the other thread.
 
What do voice actors do between gigs? Generally speaking, is the gap due to a lack of work or because each role requires a substantial amount of preparation? If it's the former, it sounds like something which should be viewed as a part time job and I am not sure I agree with it requiring better compensation. If it's the latter, I agree the role should be more heavily compensated.

Also, taxes are a weird inclusion in that figure. Literally every job's compensation is discussed as pre-tax. Expenses and manager cuts are absolutely legitimate and often overlooked.
Career VAs are always working, which is what leads to "problems" like how we had that period where AAA productions wanted Nolan North to do the Drake Voice™ on everything since Uncharted was successful, while he might be doing stuff in between those gigs for smaller but no less important roles, like the Personality Spheres in Portal 2 or being the voice of Deadpool for a few years.

Hellena Taylor is something of an exception here as she's not a career VA in the first place, as VO work is something she's done every so often to augment her theater career as a stage actor.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,102
What do voice actors do between gigs? Generally speaking, is the gap due to a lack of work or because each role requires a substantial amount of preparation? If it's the former, it sounds like something which should be viewed as a part time job and I am not sure I agree with it requiring better compensation. If it's the latter, I agree the role should be more heavily compensated.

Also, taxes are a weird inclusion in that figure. Literally every job's compensation is discussed as pre-tax. Expenses and manager cuts are absolutely legitimate and often overlooked.
Most VAs just book a lot of gigs.
 

SamAlbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,367
What do voice actors do between gigs? Generally speaking, is the gap due to a lack of work or because each role requires a substantial amount of preparation? If it's the former, it sounds like something which should be viewed as a part time job and I am not sure I agree with it requiring better compensation. If it's the latter, I agree the role should be more heavily compensated.

Also, taxes are a weird inclusion in that figure. Literally every job's compensation is discussed as pre-tax. Expenses and manager cuts are absolutely legitimate and often overlooked.

Auditions are unpaid. There's a lot of time spent auditioning to get to the point of actually doing paid work.
 

Paula B.

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 13, 2021
314
Rio de Janeiro
They're well within their rights to do so, but Taylor basically screamed to be permanently blacklisted from the industry with this stunt, so there's not much else they can really do to her that she hasn't already done to herself.

depends on if they think it's worth it to sue at all, considering Helena basically removed herself from the VA industry

I don't think its in Platinum or Nintendos interests from a financial or publicity point of view to try to go after her from here on out. She's not a regular VA, she won't be trying to get jobs in the industry again, she says she just wants to put the whole "bloody franchise" behind her and move on now.

Considering how this all blew up in her face with Schreier's article yesterday it's probably best just to drop it.

After all, she broke an NDA to..... lie about what was covered by her NDA. She didn't actually reveal anything truthful. It's not like she broke an NDA and started spilling Platinum or Nintendo contract information, payments, or details about upcoming projects they wanted to keep under wraps.

It's a matter of perception and not money. Because I agree that Nintendo or Platinum wouldn't get a lot of money from Hellena, but they could clean their image. Hellena's Twitter video got 235 thousand likes, it was watched by 9.7 Million people and shared by mainstream outlets like TMZ. In comparison, Jason's report received 17 thousand likes and it's behind a paywall, so the full story isn't getting traction and because of that Hellena's version will remain the truth to most people. Therefore, wouldn't be beneficial for both Platinum and Nintendo's image, to set the record straight? I assume that because of the NDAs, they would only be allowed to do that through court.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,807
Frankly speaking, I don't think it's quite that simple at all (though I respect the use of green and red to illustrate your point). While hurling insults like "corporate bootlicker" is unnecessarily hostile at best, I also think it's entirely fair to question the motives behind whether someone vocally supports or vocally doubts an accusation. While there were plenty of folks who were legitimately concerned about the harassment Kamiya and Hale received, how many others were searching every nook and cranny of Taylor's social media to discredit her, including random people she follows on Twitter, just so that they could defend their favorite game developer or feel okay buying and playing Bayonetta 3? Of course, there's a case to be made that some people who supported her already disliked PlatinumGames and never had any intention of playing Bayo 3 anyways and were happy to find another villain in the games industry (God knows there are plenty of them). From my perspective, a lot of folks who claim that they've been attacked were simply disagreed with. The line, I think, is less clear-cut than you're suggesting.

I also question whether being "skeptical" of an accusation is all that far from calling the accuser a liar, at least in practice. In theory, yes, a healthy dose of skepticism towards any situation is a good thing. But when you're spending more time being skeptical of an accusation than you are supporting it, then you've taken a side, whether that was your intention or not. If all I did was compile a list of every inconsistency in an accusation, loaded it up onto my favorite social media site, and watch it get clicks, I don't have to suggest that the person is a liar. But in practice, I've added a whole lot of fuel to the fire, and lent credence to the conclusion that they are, in fact, a liar. In this case, my skepticism would be rewarded! And even if their accusations turned out to be true, I could simply argue that I wasn't taking a side at all.

It's a win-win illusion of neutrality that, in practice, largely benefits the accused. The social media mob mentality, meanwhile, benefits the accuser (at least in this case—there are at times, like the Depp trial, where the reverse is true). There is no position of neutrality. That's not necessarily an ideal conclusion, but I think it's important to consider. Or not, that's up to you.
This is nonsense. People acted like shits, stop making excuses for it. I literally did not feel comfortable asking what I thought were basic obvious questions in the other thread…and I didn't even think she was lying, I just wanted clarification. Your post is saying that if I'd asked for that clarification people should've dogpiled me and said I was posting in bad faith and I should just believe every word she said without question.
I'm at work and it's gonna take some time for me to detail how bass ackwards I find the basis of this post to be and why, so I'll see you in ~9 hours.
Lol. Yeah, I can't think of a good way to put it while on my phone and at the office but I imagine your post would have been better.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,095
Auditions are unpaid. There's a lot of time spent auditioning to get to the point of actually doing paid work.

Not to mention voice lessons and coaching (which most voice actors do EVEN IF they're getting work), which cost money themselves to upkeep over time. I had a voice coach the entire time I was acting and performing in Chicago. It's not cheap.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,627
It's a matter of perception and not money. Because I agree that Nintendo or Platinum wouldn't get a lot of money from Hellena, but they could clean their image. Hellena's Twitter video got 235 thousand likes, it was watched by 9.7 Million people and shared by mainstream outlets like TMZ. In comparison, Jason's report received 17 thousand likes and it's behind a paywall, so the full story isn't getting traction and because of that Hellena's version will remain the truth to most people. Therefore, wouldn't be beneficial for both Platinum and Nintendo's image, to set the record straight? I assume that because of the NDAs, they would only be allowed to do that through court.
It wouldn't launder their image. It would look like a big company going after an individual person, which is what it is. The right and wrong of it would not be conveyed to the mass audience.

At this point the only thing to do from a PR perspective is release the game and never talk about any of this again. Taylor has decided, for reasons people can read into if they want, to just move on from this after dropping her videos. Unless this game massively performs over expectations I doubt we'll get another strictly Bayonetta title again anyway. That's possible, I suppose, but I don't think anyone at Nintendo or PlatinumGames is drawing up Bayonetta 4 on the back of a napkin right now.

It is what it is, you can't put the genie back in the bottle no matter how much Nintendo or PlatinumGames would want to.
 
Jun 16, 2019
280
The fact that people wont just own up and are still trying to say that Kamiya was wrong is astonishing to me. I mean, no its not really surprising but its seriously pissing me off. Because you think he's mean on twitter he deserved getting harassed and made fun of when he was literally RIGHT? Grow up holy shit


"Stop calling us insects," the swarm buzzed, threateningly.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,807
A lot has been written about learning not to jump to conclusions. I have learned my lesson. I fell for Taylor's emotional plea and believed her, despite the red flags that were there.

What I haven't really seen addressed so far was the embarrassing Twitter witch hunt that happened in the original thread. The topic was a dispute between a worker and a corporate entity on a professional level, but people dragged unrelated things into it to start a pissing contest. People dug through Kamiya's, Taylor's and Hale's Twitter profiles, desperately trying to find some dirt on them, any problematic comment or like that they could use to start a mob and accuse other users who didn't support "the good side" of being problematic or whatever. None of that had relevance to the actual topic, which was whether Taylor's allegations against Platinum Games were true.

Whatever Kamiya, Taylor or Hale wrote or liked about foreigners, trans rights or autism has no relevance to what they did or didn't do in a professional capacity. There was a new twist on almost every page, the good guy became the bad guy and vice versa. And with this came disingenuous insinuations and accusations about other users. If you were skeptical of Taylor's claims, you were a sexist or a corporate bootlicker. A few screenshots later, the tables turned. If you believed Taylor, you endorsed harassment or were a transphobe. How Hale's autism comments played into this I have no idea, I stopped reading when that was brought up. Anyone who partook in that circus had no interest in the actual topic. They just wanted a pissing contest and showed that they have the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old who can't even grasp the most basic levels of nuance. That was the most pathetic aspect of the "discussion" in the other thread.
I can agree with this. She sounds like a shitty person but shitty people get shafted by companies all the time. And supposedly not shitty people lie sometimes. There's no magical formula.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609

1 - Everyone has to pay taxes, agents take a cut yes, but their job is to find you work, which Hellena's (if she has one) did a piss poor job of it judging by her portfolio, everyone has expenses too and whoever hires you shouldn'T really care about downtime between gigs, this is on you as a freelance individual. In any way, $1k an hour is a very good pay.

2 - Full Bayonetta sales are probably in the ballpark of 5 million copies for the whole franchise, which is less than DMC V alone.
 

Vonocourt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,637
Whatever Kamiya, Taylor or Hale wrote or liked about foreigners, trans rights or autism has no relevance to what they did or didn't do in a professional capacity. There was a new twist on almost every page, the good guy became the bad guy and vice versa. And with this came disingenuous insinuations and accusations about other users. If you were skeptical of Taylor's claims, you were a sexist or a corporate bootlicker. A few screenshots later, the tables turned. If you believed Taylor, you endorsed harassment or were a transphobe. How Hale's autism comments played into this I have no idea, I stopped reading when that was brought up. Anyone who partook in that circus had no interest in the actual topic. They just wanted a pissing contest and showed that they have the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old who can't even grasp the most basic levels of nuance. That was the most pathetic aspect of the "discussion" in the other thread.
Post an example of this, I jumped in the thread near the end and that seems like a gross interpretation of what happened.

People were completely dismissing her bigotry by calling it "political beliefs" or saying that she was just a religious woman. That's what I and many others were taking umbrage with. One of the banned users called us corporate bootlickers because we didn't fuck with a person who thinks a kiwi farm user and vocal anti-trans figure was someone to follow. I don't particularly take kindly to you saying that people caring about a human rights issue have the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old.
 

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,725
Elysium
Can't believe people harassed Kamiya and now it is looking like he was right that Hellena Taylor wasn't telling the whole truth. The guy is just a harmless cringe arsehole and he doesn't deserved to be harassed over this, imo. If she was going to make 4k per session and declined it because she wanted six figures then that puts a rest to the whole "she was not offered the main role" part because I feel convinced that this story is entirely true now and she was replaced because it was her own fault and now it's more than likely blowing up in her face and she is making an excuse that she now wants to put the whole bloody franchise behind her. While 15000 is still very low it makes no sense to claim she was only getting 4000 for the whole game when that's factually untrue. It seems her videos gained traction because she was really hoping that people would boycott but now it looks like she's never ever getting a job as a VA again because she was actually lying according to this report. I'm not one to doubt a report by a professional gaming journalist so I think that's the end of that unless Nintendo or Platinum says otherwise.
 

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,740
Can't believe people harassed Kamiya and now it is looking like he was right that Hellena Taylor wasn't telling the whole truth. The guy is just a harmless cringe arsehole and he doesn't deserved to be harassed over this, imo.

What makes my blood boil is that people were accusing him of being xenophobic and the whole reason Kamiya was blocking people is that these people were throwing racist insults at Kamiya.
 

Ailanthium

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,278
I'm at work and it's gonna take some time for me to detail how bass ackwards I find the basis of this post to be and why, so I'll see you in ~9 hours.

I'm sorry you feel that way—I hope you know that I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you or anything, and I'm legitimately trying to consider this situation from as many angles as possible. I probably won't reply to your post because I'm trying to step away from this topic and move on, but I'll try to at least read your reply.

This is nonsense. People acted like shits, stop making excuses for it. I literally did not feel comfortable asking what I thought were basic obvious questions in the other thread…and I didn't even think she was lying, I just wanted clarification. Your post is saying that if I'd asked for that clarification people should've dogpiled me and said I was posting in bad faith and I should just believe every word she said without question.

I haven't said anything of the sort. Most of the discussions I've had about the topic have been on Twitter (where most people seem to immediately doubt Schreier or consider it a he-said she-said situation, which I disagree with), so I'm not making excuses for anybody posting here. That being said, I don't necessarily think getting dogpiled on the internet is that big a deal either? It's your prerogative on whether or not you feel comfortable posting a take people will likely disagree with. I'm not exactly getting rounds of applause with my recent posts but I stand by them. I understand that people might think I'm also posting in bad faith but that's something I'll leave to the moderators, not random ERA users. It's also their job to decide when someone's crossed the line.

I will admit that I made a post that came off as more inflammatory than I intended in another thread, but I tried to avoid pointing fingers to anyone specifically.
 

Apath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,121
Auditions are unpaid. There's a lot of time spent auditioning to get to the point of actually doing paid work.
As in to break in to the industry or per gig? And do we know on average how much time is spent auditioning versus doing the actual work?

I think for me to have a clear picture of the compensation and demands of the role, I need to understand how much time is required per paid hour to do the job. But even if we're talking 9:1 where 1 hour of work is really equivalent to 10 (one hour working, nine hours prep/auditioning/training/etc), we are talking $100/hr which is still a very respectable pay rate. Either way, I am extremely ignorant to acting/VA careers, so it's pretty interesting following this story and learning so much about it.
1 - Everyone has to pay taxes, agents take a cut yes, but their job is to find you work, which Hellena's (if she has one) did a piss poor job of it judging by her portfolio, everyone has expenses too and whoever hires you shouldn'T really care about downtime between gigs, this is on you as a freelance individual. In any way, $1k an hour is a very good pay.
This mirrors where my mind is currently at, however Jason and many others who are much more knowledgable than me of the gaming industry/voice acting seem to believe voice actors are underpaid even at the higher rate Hellen was offered. So while my mind is in one place, I'm interested in hearing the reasons why they are underpaid to have a better understanding.
 
Apr 5, 2022
458
That being said, I don't necessarily think getting dogpiled on the internet is that big a deal either? It's your prerogative on whether or not you feel comfortable posting a take people will likely disagree with.
Depends on the level of dogpiling and the nature of the disagreement, I think. No one is psychologically equipped to handle a bunch of strangers telling them "you're a bad person" over and over. I take your point in milder situations, but I wouldn't say what was happening in the previous thread (or to Kamiya, for that matter) would be easy for anyone to brush off.
 

MoogleWizard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,704
Post an example of this, I jumped in the thread near the end and that seems like a gross interpretation of what happened.

People were completely dismissing her bigotry by calling it "political beliefs" or saying that she was just a religious woman. That's what I and many others were taking umbrage with. One of the banned users called us corporate bootlickers because we didn't fuck with a person who thinks a kiwi farm user and vocal anti-trans figure was someone to follow. I don't particularly take kindly to you saying that people caring about a human rights issue have the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old.
There was a clear shift in the thread shortly before it got closed. A screenshot was shared and it was insinuated that people who still expressed that Taylor may have been saying the truth about the negotiations were endorsing harassment of Kamiya or muddying the waters for a TERF (also happened in this one earlier). These insinuations are disingenuous. There is a distinction between a person in a professional capacity, and what they say or believe in a non-professional capacity. It takes emotional maturity to separate the two, that's what I meant. Whatever happened between Kamiya and Taylor on a professional level is not related to what they say or believe in in a non-professional capacity.

Taylor is a shit person, but she still could have said the truth about the business negotiations, in the same way that Kamiya was wrongly accused in the beginning. Kamiya was harassed because people wanted to believe that their feelings about him as a person translated to how he acted in a professional capacity. With Taylor it was the same, when the news about her being a bigot broke, people (understandably) wanted her to be wrong, and this anger was also directed to other users. Both times, it was insinuated that people who didn't outright dismiss what they said about the business deal must somehow share or excuse their attitudes and beliefs. Life would be easier it we could put people into simple categories of good and bad, but that's not how it works. A shit person can still be wronged by a corporation, and someone who acknowledges this possibility doesn't have to share that person's beliefs about topics unrelated to business.
 

SamAlbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,367
As in to break in to the industry or per gig? And do we know on average how much time is spent auditioning versus doing the actual work?

Per gig, unless you're a major name. Big name voice actors will be requested by potential employers, but smaller actors will have to go seek out their own auditions (or get sent to them by an agent) for every gig.

I mean ...doesnt this apply to pretty much 99% of the time when applying for a job? reimbursement is not the norm

It's freelance work, where costs of things like benefits and time spent seeking new clients are factored in to the price tag. Full time employees get hired and then they have a job for the foreseeable future. Freelancers are always job hunting, because the jobs are so short term that they have to factor in the time between gigs as part of their rate.
 

Axe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,774
United Kingdom
I thought something smelled about this story simply by the fact Platinum recast the character with Jennifer Hale. It just didn't track for me, as hiring Hale alone says two things:
  • Platinum weren't trying to get the cheapest VA possible. They could have hired anybody, but they hired Hale. If anyone in the biz can command a high fee for this line of work it's going to be her.
  • There was an apparent need for an actor with a reputation of being professional, reliable, easy to work with, etc. Again, they could have hired anyone, but they hired someone with a strong reputation for these specific qualities. Hale has also alluded to possibly knowing a specific reason that prompted her casting.
Bizarrely, the whole thing reads like Hellena Taylor saw a big number somewhere, thought it all went straight into Kamiya's pocket, and figured she could get a big piece of that pie. Perhaps the reality of what happened wasn't quite as dumb as that (and, most likely, we'll never know the full truth anyway), but I think Taylor's ignorance/misunderstanding about video game development is at the heart of this story. Taylor is not wrong to state her expectations in a negotiation (even if the demands are ridiculous), but she is totally in the wrong if she has indeed misrepresented the situation out of apparent spite.

Platinum trying to get Taylor into the game somehow, even after the recast, suggests that they have a great deal of personal respect for her work and past contribution to the series, so it's sad to see things end so poorly between them. Not nearly as sad as the predictable online reaction towards some of the involved parties though.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,639
There was a clear shift in the thread shortly before it got closed. A screenshot was shared and it was insinuated that people who still expressed that Taylor may have been saying the truth about the negotiations were endorsing harassment of Kamiya or muddying the waters for a TERF (also happened in this one earlier). These insinuations are disingenuous. There is a distinction between a person in a professional capacity, and what they say or believe in a non-professional capacity. It takes emotional maturity to separate the two, that's what I meant. Whatever happened between Kamiya and Taylor on a professional level is not related to what they say or believe in in a non-professional capacity.

Taylor is a shit person, but she still could have said the truth about the business negotiations, in the same way that Kamiya was wrongly accused in the beginning. Kamiya was harassed because people wanted to believe that their feelings about him as a person translated to how he acted in a professional capacity. With Taylor it was the same, when the news about her being a bigot broke, people (understandably) wanted her to be wrong, and this anger was also directed to other users. Both times, it was insinuated that people who didn't outright dismiss what they said about the business deal must somehow share or excuse their attitudes and beliefs. Life would be easier it we could put people into simple categories of good and bad, but that's not how it works. A shit person can still be wronged by a corporation, and someone who acknowledges this possibility doesn't have to share that person's beliefs about topics unrelated to business.
Most of this stuff was rightfully called out in the old thread though.

With that said, I do think it's fair to know who you're defending. I'll say right now that I'm not knowingly going to bat for a Trump person, or any of the far right ideologies that usually follow. I almost always want to know the person involved in any situation, especially when things aren't adding up. The idea that she was straight up lying never really occurred to me, but it should have, and I shouldn't have just ignored her Twitter stuff.

I'm not the type to comb through one's history like that, and I just wanted to wait for a response from Platinum or anyone who did a bit of journalism, but I didn't mind the new information. It does seem like it comes from a place of wanting to discredit her, and that should be called out still.
 
Apr 5, 2022
458
I think the implication is "if she's a TERF, she's lied about things before." Which is certainly true -- that ideology requires lying in some form or another. Whether or not you think that bigger lie makes this situation inherently suspect is a trickier proposition.
 

AgeEighty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
I thought something smelled about this story simply by the fact Platinum recast the character with Jennifer Hale. It just didn't track for me, as hiring Hale alone says two things:
  • Platinum weren't trying to get the cheapest VA possible. They could have hired anybody, but they hired Hale. If anyone in the biz can command a high fee for this line of work it's going to be her.
  • There was an apparent need for an actor with a reputation of being professional, reliable, easy to work with, etc. Again, they could have hired anyone, but they hired someone with a strong reputation for these specific qualities. Hale has also alluded to possibly knowing a specific reason that prompted her casting.
Bizarrely, the whole thing reads like Hellena Taylor saw a big number somewhere, thought it all went straight into Kamiya's pocket, and figured she could get a big piece of that pie. Perhaps the reality of what happened wasn't quite as dumb as that (and, most likely, we'll never know the full truth anyway), but I think Taylor's ignorance/misunderstanding about video game development is at the heart of this story. Taylor is not wrong to state her expectations in a negotiation (even if the demands are ridiculous), but she is totally in the wrong if she has indeed misrepresented the situation out of apparent spite.

Platinum trying to get Taylor into the game somehow, even after the recast, suggests that they have a great deal of personal respect for her work and past contribution to the series, so it's sad to see things end so poorly between them. Not nearly as sad as the predictable online reaction towards some of the involved parties though.

Hell, it's even possible that some friend of hers got in her ear and told her she should demand a big payday. She had to have a friend translate her email to Kamiya, so that tells me she basically doesn't have anybody like a manager or agent giving her sound career advice. Unless she does, and like many other right wingers just ignores good advice.

And yes, while I generally agree that a person's personal beliefs shouldn't influence how people receive their potential mistreatment at the hands of an employer, I certainly do think being a TERF specifically is right to give people pause about her truthfulness and reasoning.
 

Dever

Member
Dec 25, 2019
5,352
Bizarrely, the whole thing reads like Hellena Taylor saw a big number somewhere, thought it all went straight into Kamiya's pocket, and figured she could get a big piece of that pie. Perhaps the reality of what happened wasn't quite as dumb as that (and, most likely, we'll never know the full truth anyway), but I think Taylor's ignorance/misunderstanding about video game development is at the heart of this story. Taylor is not wrong to state her expectations in a negotiation (even if the demands are ridiculous), but she is totally in the wrong if she has indeed misrepresented the situation out of apparent spite.

Yeah this seems most likely to me. Especially if she genuinely believe Bayonetta was a 450m dollar franchise. Although you would expect Platinum to have explained to her in the negotiations that it wasn't even close, but who knows.

And this is why Taylor's reasoning is so dumb... Bayonetta 3 will likely be the first game in the series that will actually sell an impressive number of copies. That could possibly greenlight a Bayonetta 4, where she maybe could've justifiably asked for an even higher salary. Now she gets 0.
 

Xenomiggs

Member
Nov 8, 2017
429
Miami, FL
A lot has been written about learning not to jump to conclusions. I have learned my lesson. I fell for Taylor's emotional plea and believed her, despite the red flags that were there.

What I haven't really seen addressed so far was the embarrassing Twitter witch hunt that happened in the original thread. The topic was a dispute between a worker and a corporate entity on a professional level, but people dragged unrelated things into it to start a pissing contest. People dug through Kamiya's, Taylor's and Hale's Twitter profiles, desperately trying to find some dirt on them, any problematic comment or like that they could use to start a mob and accuse other users who didn't support "the good side" of being problematic or whatever. None of that had relevance to the actual topic, which was whether Taylor's allegations against Platinum Games were true.

Whatever Kamiya, Taylor or Hale wrote or liked about foreigners, trans rights or autism has no relevance to what they did or didn't do in a professional capacity. There was a new twist on almost every page, the good guy became the bad guy and vice versa. And with this came disingenuous insinuations and accusations about other users. If you were skeptical of Taylor's claims, you were a sexist or a corporate bootlicker. A few screenshots later, the tables turned. If you believed Taylor, you endorsed harassment or were a transphobe. How Hale's autism comments played into this I have no idea, I stopped reading when that was brought up. Anyone who partook in that circus had no interest in the actual topic. They just wanted a pissing contest and showed that they have the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old who can't even grasp the most basic levels of nuance. That was the most pathetic aspect of the "discussion" in the other thread.

This post sums up how I feel about this whole subject.
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
Well, turns out waiting for more information was the right move, despite my initial reaction in favor or Taylor.

Now, we probably won't have the whole truth, as both parties are calling eachother liars.

Taylor, however, is in a genuine position of getting sued not only for her NDA breaking, but also for actively trying to undermine a previous employer through calling for a boycott. Not that they will necessarily pick that option, but she is liable to pay damages.

She also torpedo'd her professional career, not only in the voice acting industry, but in theater as well, as potential employers necessarily will hear about that story.

I don't know if she was screwed over by Nintendo/Platinum/Kamiya, if it is a misunderstanding, or if she got greedy. Once again, we will certainly never know. The only things that are certain are that her actions will inevitably bring her a lot of trouble, certainly far more than she envisioned.

Bluntly put: it was a poor move, one that will cost her much more than she expected. She is far from having "nothing to lose". Quite the contrary, she opened the doors to lose everything she has built, and a lot of doors will be closed to her from now on.

Overall, it's just a very sad affair.
 

Vonocourt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,637
There was a clear shift in the thread shortly before it got closed. A screenshot was shared and it was insinuated that people who still expressed that Taylor may have been saying the truth about the negotiations were endorsing harassment of Kamiya or muddying the waters for a TERF (also happened in this one earlier). These insinuations are disingenuous. There is a distinction between a person in a professional capacity, and what they say or believe in a non-professional capacity. It takes emotional maturity to separate the two, that's what I meant. Whatever happened between Kamiya and Taylor on a professional level is not related to what they say or believe in in a non-professional capacity.

Taylor is a shit person, but she still could have said the truth about the business negotiations, in the same way that Kamiya was wrongly accused in the beginning. Kamiya was harassed because people wanted to believe that their feelings about him as a person translated to how he acted in a professional capacity. With Taylor it was the same, when the news about her being a bigot broke, people (understandably) wanted her to be wrong, and this anger was also directed to other users. Both times, it was insinuated that people who didn't outright dismiss what they said about the business deal must somehow share or excuse their attitudes and beliefs. Life would be easier it we could put people into simple categories of good and bad, but that's not how it works. A shit person can still be wronged by a corporation, and someone who acknowledges this possibility doesn't have to share that person's beliefs about topics unrelated to business.
Given the accusations she made were justified only by faith of her character, yes her opinions of stuff outside her career reflects how people see the situation. TERFs have a complete bucketlist of disengious or straight up lies to attack trans folks with very little pushback by media and the general population. So people well familiar with this will take what they say critically. People brushing off the TERF accusations are very much muddying the water, as it's not keeping it on topic as they paint it, but dismissing bigotry towards a marginalized class entirely from a person we're supposed to take at their word.

Being incredulous is not outright condemnation. Professor Beef was one of the ones I remember seeing saying a lot that her claims are now suspect because her transphobic nonsense, and I didn't see them outright claim Taylor was 100%, undeniably lying. If people were, point them out rather than make generalizations.

I'm well aware a shit person can be wronged, that has never been in question. And that you are repeatedly framing it as such is condescending talk. The issue is the downplaying or dismissal of bigotry. Reducing it to different "beliefs" is doing that. Trans rights is not a matter of differing beliefs like you keep categorizing it as, it's a matter of human rights.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,129
There's really no excuse for bringing Kamiya's Twitter persona into this. The labour dispute has no connection to how he acts on Twitter. It's his personal Twitter account, he doesn't owe it to you or anyone else any more that you owe a response to anyone else who send you a message online.

I do think his message was handled poorly, though. His rules and Twitter persona are at least in part a gag - a lot of people thought it was funny that Kamiya blocks so many people and they'd talk to him on Twitter just to block him, he's unblocked at least one person to give her advice on how to improve her Bayonetta fanart and then blocked her again, Platinum has offered being blocked by Kamiya on Twitter as a reward on Kickstarter. So his normal Twitter behaviour has a sense of levity that, when he attaches that to what seems to be a serious dispute it makes the message appear flippant.

That just means he could have handled it better, it doesn't entitle anyone to harass him.
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,782
People talking shit on kamiya the other day should buy 2 copies of the game as an apology

Tbh i dont trust this Jason dude either

Hellena doing this carreer suicide move doesnt make any sense at all.

Don't trust the dude that wrote the book on unionization of the video games industry, broke mistreatment of employees by companies like rockstar, naughty dog and Ubisoft to name a few.

You also don't seem to realize that hellena is not a video game va she is a stage actor. She has not had a roll since bayo 2. She has no games va career to suicide.


I dunno it still just seems incredibly weird to me that she voiced the character on and off since what 2009 over 4 different projects that I know of (Bayo 1&2 , Smash, Anime) and then suddenly on this project its just where it all fell apart?

The covid years did a number on right wing blue lives terfs. They got bold. She probably thinks she is the jkr of games.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,854
Frankly speaking, I don't think it's quite that simple at all (though I respect the use of green and red to illustrate your point). While hurling insults like "corporate bootlicker" is unnecessarily hostile at best, I also think it's entirely fair to question the motives behind whether someone vocally supports or vocally doubts an accusation. While there were plenty of folks who were legitimately concerned about the harassment Kamiya and Hale received, how many others were searching every nook and cranny of Taylor's social media to discredit her, including random people she follows on Twitter, just so that they could defend their favorite game developer or feel okay buying and playing Bayonetta 3? Of course, there's a case to be made that some people who supported her already disliked PlatinumGames and never had any intention of playing Bayo 3 anyways and were happy to find another villain in the games industry (God knows there are plenty of them). From my perspective, a lot of folks who claim that they've been attacked were simply disagreed with. The line, I think, is less clear-cut than you're suggesting.

I also question whether being "skeptical" of an accusation is all that far from calling the accuser a liar, at least in practice. In theory, yes, a healthy dose of skepticism towards any situation is a good thing. But when you're spending more time being skeptical of an accusation than you are supporting it, then you've taken a side, whether that was your intention or not. If all I did was compile a list of every inconsistency in an accusation, loaded it up onto my favorite social media site, and watch it get clicks, I don't have to suggest that the person is a liar. But in practice, I've added a whole lot of fuel to the fire, and lent credence to the conclusion that they are, in fact, a liar. In this case, my skepticism would be rewarded! And even if their accusations turned out to be true, I could simply argue that I wasn't taking a side at all.

It's a win-win illusion of neutrality that, in practice, largely benefits the accused. The social media mob mentality, meanwhile, benefits the accuser (at least in this case—there are at times, like the Depp trial, where the reverse is true). There is no position of neutrality. That's not necessarily an ideal conclusion, but I think it's important to consider. Or not, that's up to you.
Comparing this to sexual harassment is horrible. Literally horrible.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,805
It is not a hunch. Their reaction to this news was to dial back marketing and interviews.
Has to feel unbelievably shitty for the team that the game was kicking up this much positive buzz after years of anticipation, only for it to be roadblocked in the last stretch by what practically amounts to a faux pas. I can only hope for their sake that the momentum can slowly shift back in their favor. The Bloomberg/VGC/et al. reports might not reach the mainstream recognition that Taylor's original tweets did, but among the enthusiast circles it at least seems to have made an impact.
 

Alolan Rai

Member
Jan 11, 2022
807
I understand that she said she doesn't have anything to lose, but is she sure she doesn't? Even if she wants to go back to theater, something like this would probably turn them away. I feel she threw her career in anything away which is a poor choice.
 

Ailanthium

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,278
Comparing this to sexual harassment is horrible. Literally horrible.

I literally took every step possible to avoid direct comparisons to sexual harassment in this post, so that's on you. The only thing I mentioned that's even related is the Depp trial, and that was specifically about the explicit dangers of social media mob mentality (I couldn't think of another well-known example off the top of my head where the accused party largely benefited from it).
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,854
I literally took every step possible to avoid direct comparisons to sexual harassment in this post, so that's on you. The only thing I mentioned that's even related is the Depp trial, and that was specifically about the explicit dangers of social media mob mentality (I couldn't think of another well-known example off the top of my head where the accused party largely benefited from it).
The Depp thing was literally about harassment and abuse!
 

Deleted user 125633

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 13, 2022
485
If you are at any point comparing getting called out for being aggressively wrong about this mess, being called out for calling others bootlickers or sexist for expressing skeptism, to sexual harassment you're beyond wrong. What the hell is wrong with you?
 

Tendo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,438
People talking shit on kamiya the other day should buy 2 copies of the game as an apology

Tbh i dont trust this Jason dude either

Hellena doing this carreer suicide move doesnt make any sense at all.
Jason is a legit journalist. And a fantastic one at that. You should check some of his past work - great pieces to dive into if you are interested!
 
Apr 5, 2022
458
If you are at any point comparing getting called out for being aggressively wrong about this mess, being called out for calling others bootlickers or sexist for expressing skeptism, to sexual harassment you're beyond wrong. What the hell is wrong with you?
Is that the actual comparison being made? I think it's the larger rhetoric around this situation. (Which I think *is* interesting, in an anthropological sense, but probably requires more distance and care than makes sense in this venue.) Happy to be corrected here, though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.