Oh absolutely, Rebirth is what XV should have been in terms of open world.
[Bloomberg] Sales of FFXVI, VII Rebirth, and Foamstars failed to meet expectations
- Thread starter Clippy
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Lol Rebirth is what Nomura wanted Versus XIII to be, even has a musical and everything.
At the very least, it requires you to have played FF7 Remake beforehand. But also, I can only assume that FF7 Remake's plot of "All of this happened already and some of the characters are trying to rewrite the timelines" is going to be even more ridiculous & confusing if you are unfamiliar with the original FF7's plot.
Pokemon continues to sell like crazy every installment and the primary demographic is kids. Sega's RPGs are on an upward sales trajectory. Honkai Star Rail is one of the only new GaaS of late to do extremely well. And well, a lot of gatcha games in general are also RPGs! I see no indication that young people aren't playing RPGs.
"Has been relied too much on an individual's creativity. Will promote sharing game making how-how among teams and will seek best balance of individual creativity and organizational discipline"
I'll admit a strong bias here but I really hope this can be read as Nomura being taken away from the reigns on titles his style clearly doesn't fit.
I loved Remake but fell off it VERY hard because of how badly the ending felt like a Kingdom Hearts tier story mess. I haven't bought Rebirth after hearing it doubled down on that. Damn shame because I adored the gameplay and everything I hear says Rebirths even better there but I just can't get past writing that overbearingly painful.
Regardless, here's hoping the "Organizational discipline" leads to them trying to write grounded stories occasionally.
I'll admit a strong bias here but I really hope this can be read as Nomura being taken away from the reigns on titles his style clearly doesn't fit.
I loved Remake but fell off it VERY hard because of how badly the ending felt like a Kingdom Hearts tier story mess. I haven't bought Rebirth after hearing it doubled down on that. Damn shame because I adored the gameplay and everything I hear says Rebirths even better there but I just can't get past writing that overbearingly painful.
Regardless, here's hoping the "Organizational discipline" leads to them trying to write grounded stories occasionally.
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XV even had a theatrical film to market it.
Maybe the solution is FF needs more mediocre CG tie-in movies! :P
Rebirth's sales missing the target is basically not news at this point, and given the circumstances around the game, hardly surprising. Exclusivity is a big issue, but its clearly just one of the several ones. At the end of the day its a crazy ass project and I doubt any other publisher would've approved of it - and I bet Kitase would get laughed out of square's offices if he proposed it today - it is what it is.
I'm more concerned for 16 failing to hit further milestones, because that's where the future of the brand lies, and it doesn't look pretty. I love 16, but it's becoming more and more obvious that it failed to capture the audience that showed up for 15. And with the huge gaps between mainline FF's, and the lack of consistent identity... well, it's starting to become a real problem. FF15 was only on playstation and xbox at launch, 3 years into the gen, same as 16 when it launched. And 15 hit 5m milestone in 3 days. PS/Xbox split was around 80/20. So yes, again, multiplatform would help but it certainly wouldn't account for everything, as 16 seemingly isn't anywhere near close to hitting 5m yet despite several discounts and 2 DLC releases and being nearly a year on market.
I'm more concerned for 16 failing to hit further milestones, because that's where the future of the brand lies, and it doesn't look pretty. I love 16, but it's becoming more and more obvious that it failed to capture the audience that showed up for 15. And with the huge gaps between mainline FF's, and the lack of consistent identity... well, it's starting to become a real problem. FF15 was only on playstation and xbox at launch, 3 years into the gen, same as 16 when it launched. And 15 hit 5m milestone in 3 days. PS/Xbox split was around 80/20. So yes, again, multiplatform would help but it certainly wouldn't account for everything, as 16 seemingly isn't anywhere near close to hitting 5m yet despite several discounts and 2 DLC releases and being nearly a year on market.
I mean the marketing campaign for 15 was truly massive. Tie in CG movie, anime, was on conan, I remember the game ads for it and I haven't watched tv in years.
But then frankly don't think many games since I felt the same marketing presence outside giants like Red Dead or GTA and similar.
But then frankly don't think many games since I felt the same marketing presence outside giants like Red Dead or GTA and similar.
i think it's pretty obvious that being more or less RPG has very little to no bearings in a game's sales. it's the overall game structure that impacts it
XV is way less RPG than Rebirth yet way more than XVI's, but one's sales massively dwarf over the others. XV was also the "non RPG" FF for a while before XVI was even shown. pretty much every side of the fanbase criticised it from straying too far from the franchise's roots, and it sold so absurdly well that a lot of the fanbase really lost hope that FF had permanently changed (well, it did tbf) because there was no reason not to
there's zero reason to exclude Rebirth in the picture. it's very clear that there is a downward trend starting from Remake, that continued to XVI and to Rebirth (and who knows how long), and it all stems from neither of the 3 capitalising on the audience that XV built tbh
The fumble was making it a trilogy. Square Enix was in love with the idea of splitting games into parts back in the early 2010s and it never really worked. See: Hitman: World of Assassination and Deus Ex Mankind Divided (with Hitman it kinda worked but only once IOI split with SE and also mainly due to some factors that FF7R doesn't have).
Remake sold well due to nostalgia, being an easy entry-point for new fans, good reviews and also the pandemic lockdownd.
Rebirth isn't a good entry point for new fans and relying on nostalgia usually leads to diminishing returns. A lot of people who wanted to re-experience FF7 were likely already satisfied with Remake and didn't feel the need to buy a new game.
Nomura didn't come up with the ending of Remake. The co-director, now director of Rebirth and prothe 3rd game did. And Kitase was also supportive. Nomura was the one who wanted to hold the breaks and stick to a straight ending.
The fact that they won't even reveal the numbers is crazy.
I kind of feel like they undersold how bad it was in an attempt to protect the stock price.
I agree. I never thought it NEEDED to be 3 games, and I don't think doing so helped them in any way.
Rebirth does a better job of not letting the meta storyline override the MSQ except at the very final chapter. If you liked Remake especially the gameplay and characters I still think you should give Rebirth a look down the line.
I would be interested in somebody making a graph looking at FF's numbers compared to Persona's. Obviously Persona is selling less but I wonder if there might be a passing of the guard moment in the next decade and what the trajectories for both franchises looks like.
If it had shipped 3 million I think they would have announced that. I'm guessing shipped 2.5 million and probably barely actually sold 2 million.
It's wild that Nomura still caching heat, yet he seems to be the voice of reason nobody listens too.
Is there a solid source for this you can link me to for this info?
This is very hard to believe considering the previous patterns but if i'm wrong then I appreciate the correction.
Cheers, that actually does help. If the gameplays good and the story isn't Remakes finale the whole way then i might still enjoy the ride.
I'll keep that in mind for a sale at least. :)
Feel like the graphs are about to cross. Persona 6 will almost assuredly be bigger than the last few FFs at this rate. Really changing of the guard.
No, but Genshin and Star Rail have continuous updates that keep it relevant. It's what kept things like Monster Hunter(outside of being a genuinely great game) relevant for so long after it's release, it had continuous support. I don't know that FF needs to go live service in lieu of things like CoD or Fortnite, but having some form of continued support by way of a multiplayer component that keeps players engaged long term, it adds great value proposition which, I would imagine, the younger gaming audience is used to and seemingly wants. If SE can manage a GaaS lite that offers robust post game content, with a compelling single player story full of your basic FF trimmings, I'm sure it'd resonate with a wider audience and has better potential to carry a playerbase into the next major FF title. It's what I HOPE the team over at CBU3 considers given their experience in the MMO space and their new found experience in an action game with XVI. Deliver on something like Granblue Relink, but in "AAA" where the single player is hefty with a robust cast that have unique and expansive skill trees to play with, then have that post launch content work as hunts and the like. Hell, they can even introduce things like FFXIV raids that are more than just "hunt monster" or "guard area".
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Seems like this brand needs a shakeup, something beyond an Action RPG or a shift to M-rated content. My impression at this point is that people still seem to fundamentally see them as traditional Japanese style RPGs and regardless of production value, content, or quality it's not really enough to stand out from other traditional Japanese styled RPGs in a major way, because the things valued in these games aren't necessarily things the broader gaming populace values or can't already find elsewhere in a game that does it just as well if not better. It's possible to do well enough with that in mind, but I'd be surprised if Square is content with the series trying to survive within those limits rather than transcending beyond them, as the series did for a good number of years.
I think I said it in another thread, but while I don't think most other JRPG franchises are in quite as a dire a position due to lower costs than a AAA FF game, I do think there's a lingering "what's next" question as to how to pull in further growth from here after what was a fairly strong run in 2016-2021. Other JRPG sequels/follow ups are going to see, or in some cases have already seen, a similar plateau or decline in their sales if they show up and it turns out they didn't really come up with an answer to that question beyond "make what worked last time but 'better' and more polished".
I think I said it in another thread, but while I don't think most other JRPG franchises are in quite as a dire a position due to lower costs than a AAA FF game, I do think there's a lingering "what's next" question as to how to pull in further growth from here after what was a fairly strong run in 2016-2021. Other JRPG sequels/follow ups are going to see, or in some cases have already seen, a similar plateau or decline in their sales if they show up and it turns out they didn't really come up with an answer to that question beyond "make what worked last time but 'better' and more polished".
"at least it didn't bomb" isn't exactly reassuring
if it's only sold 2 million that's a "oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck" moment at SE
This is nonsense, but I agree that the perception that this is true probably hurt sales.
You also gotta factor that they are actually releasing on everything. PlayStation, Xbox, PC, Switch.
I'd say FFXVI doing 3 mil on one console is a minor miracle, they gotta put out that PC version now if they want to capitalize on The Rising Tide.
I'm more interested to see how long Persona as a series will keep up considering they are milking their games all to hell. Like every Persona game has 5 different games spawning off it in different genres that are all magically canon, conveniently integrated in the main story at times.
Based on what insiders have hinted at, like Zhuge etc, it is indeed probably an "oh fuck" moment.
I'm not excluding it. I'm just saying, literally every metric we had of Rebirth so far had implied that its not doing too hot. So, the underperformance news is not... surprising.
They're also locked into making part 3 so it's not like they can pivot to make it massively different. They'll just have to bite the bullet and make part 3 as good as they can and hope that multiplatform marketing + releases will save it from bombing.
For comparison Fire Emblem Engage reached 1.6 million in a similar timeframe I believe, so assuming rebirth only managing 2 million speaks to the reality of the strength of the FF7 ip specifically. Like talk about a game having niche vibe it's def FE engage so being in a similar ballpark is quite wild.
This is one reason I'm very curious to see how Persona 6 performs. I think it will sell very well, probably better than FFXVI, but I'm also curious to see if it really breaks out big or sits comfortably in that 4-7 million range that seems to really be the cap for bigger JRPGs.
That's a big ass OOF.
I ballparked it at 2.5 mill originally but a full million loss from XVI to Rebirth would be absurd.
Putting these games on Xbox day one would not have helped. I don't think even PC would have done that much to help with sales.
Hardly no one wants to acknowledge this but sadly Final Fantasy just isn't relevant anymore and hasn't been in a very long time. The industry has radically changed since the last main series game was released nearly a decade ago. Mobile gaming and GAAS were both still in their infancy in 2015.
I fear that in order for Final Fantasy to have any sort of relevance again in the industry again it will likely mean further deviating away from what the series was known for (a single-player, story-focused RPG). I hope I'm wrong.
Hardly no one wants to acknowledge this but sadly Final Fantasy just isn't relevant anymore and hasn't been in a very long time. The industry has radically changed since the last main series game was released nearly a decade ago. Mobile gaming and GAAS were both still in their infancy in 2015.
I fear that in order for Final Fantasy to have any sort of relevance again in the industry again it will likely mean further deviating away from what the series was known for (a single-player, story-focused RPG). I hope I'm wrong.
How many days until people stop blamomg Nomura for anything he had nothing to do with
Days: 0
Sales are sales though. I understand there's potentially more customers but at the same time if your company is hamstringing themselves for a paycheck from Sony essentially...
Rebirth almost certainly cost substantially more than FE Engage to develop and market. I also imagine the expectations for Rebirth and Engage are vastly different due to aspects like the history of the IP and so on.
I dont mind microtransactions, i often buy them. But that foamstars monetization was so insulting it killed any interest I had to play the game
It is worth noting that SE actually *does* have a FF game that has been consistently growing, and that's FFXIV. Yet for whatever reason, SE is utterly failing to capitalize on trying to get the FFXIV playerbase to try out any new titles. It is fair to say that a big reason for that is the exclusivity deals, because the majority of XIV's playerbase is on PC. I think there was also some initial crossover hype between XIV and XVI based on the fact that XVI was a CBU3 game, but it seemed like much of it died as more details about the game came out, and the exclusivity killed the rest.
(In regards to XIV playerbase -> XVI hype, I remember people were expecting an actual job system. Clive being locked to swords likely turned off a significant portion of XIV fans who wanted a different playstyle, and people are realistically not going to care to do more research to find out that the Eikon system basically is a job system, the same way that people aren't going to care about not needing to play the other FF7 games to jump into Rebirth. Losing people at the 'perception' stage may be all that matters between success and failure.)
Meanwhile there was ZERO hype for Rebirth among the XIV community, for reasons that should be obvious.
Trying to get the XIV playerbase into actually being excited for any new singleplayer projects is likely going to be a major goal of the restructuring, as far as the FF brand is concerned. And they need to do it before XIV inevitably hits saturation and starts declining.
I also wouldn't be that surprised if XVII was designed in a way that would be more appealing to the kind of people drawn to XIV and the recent RPG mega hits among the rest of the industry. Character customization and gameplay designed to be more 'emergent', for one. I feel like one of the big takeaways for SE, when examining the market over the past decade, may be that narrative-heavy RPGs with a fixed cast appear to have a low sales ceiling now.
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Before any of the financials came out this week I've been hearing for the past 2 months that it's been dire. Sub-2 million at launch, about 2 million sometime after that. Obviously no way to substantite it publicly but there are people who have access to NPD numbers and people in Square Enix who would know. Sales have been very underwhelming for Rebirth and it caught S-E by surprise a lot.
Yep. That said we don't know the number 2 million was just thrown out speculatively and I made response based on that. I didn't make that clear in that statement initially(I edited it to be clearer on that 2 million being an assumption).
That's way to optimistic I think. At least for the initial release. P5 only hit 7 million after millions of the same fans essentially rebought the game for royal since that's a number for both
I dont see a world were atlus only sells P6deluxe as full priced retail only in 2027 or whatever. It will absolutely be DLC for available owners which will make the comparison between 5 and 6 murky
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Yeah, I was wondering if this was a "failed expectations" in the same way tomb raider was
The biggest reason I didn't feel compelled to finish it is that, despite how good a lot of the qualities of the game are, of which I could praise many, it was still tied up in both being FF7 (which has never been an entry I've particularly cared for) and being incredibly long and taxing, gameplaywise.
Like, for all the good things the game does for adding characterization and some pretty good writing, it's still tied to doing 99% the same stuff as the game from 25 years ago, not even really, from what I've seen before I dropped it, having the audacity to actually be all that different. The characters are a known quantity to me and many people already and 7 doesn't really do much to change that outside of longer writing.
One could argue that P3Reload and RE4 both did similar remakes and were mad successful, but P3 coasted off a rapidly grown fanbase that likely never played P3 but is enamored with P5 and RE has spent the past like decade regaining its reputation post 6, whereas Final Fantasy has basically been coasting off of FF14 in that same amount of time
Its funny I still havent pre-ordered it nor caught up on the endwalker patches. Consider me part of the audience not enticed by a side summer vacation.
Putting aside the part where the story is a middle chapter of a greater whole Final Fantasy Rebirth is the best Final Fantasy I've ever played and basically the Final Fantasy game game I've been dreaming of for 20+ years.
I really enjoyed XVI too. It's a shame these games are underperforming.
I really enjoyed XVI too. It's a shame these games are underperforming.