[Bloomberg] Sales of FFXVI, VII Rebirth, and Foamstars failed to meet expectations
- Thread starter Clippy
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PC release of XVI might do numbers, but the computer specs you'd need to run XIV and XVI well are miles apart. Consider that there's a lot of Remake players who didn't buy Rebirth because they couldn't justify upgrading to a PS5 at the same time. If someone has a PC that can run XIV decently well but not XVI, they might not bother to upgrade their PC for it. (Though at the same time, one could also argue that upgrading their PC specs to play a more graphically demanding game is a lot more future-proof than buying a PS5, purely based on how many more games end up on PC nowadays.)
I don't expect Rebirth to do anything on PC though, mostly based on how disappointing Remake PC sales numbers were.
Well, anyone knowing sales number histories could tell that FF16 did not lit up any fire. The newest Tales game almost reached a mainline Final Fantasy, where in the past, the difference was like 10:1 in favor of FF. Persona mainline games now outsell mainline FFs by like 2:1 when in the past it was more than the other way around.
I wrote it in the past. Every (important) franchise ever (even jRPGs) had tremendous growth in sales numbers these past two gens, except Final Fantasy. So, Square Enix is clearly doing something wrong and even though some of you really liked the direction of FF16, the numbers tell something different.
I wrote it in the past. Every (important) franchise ever (even jRPGs) had tremendous growth in sales numbers these past two gens, except Final Fantasy. So, Square Enix is clearly doing something wrong and even though some of you really liked the direction of FF16, the numbers tell something different.
Now they are going for a style that can't tackle heavy subjects while getting overly graphic hahahaha
I think this is the root of the problem. In recent years we've seen two broad kinds of games do well: story-driven and systems-driven. Square clearly want to make story-driven games, but their stories aren't very good.
FFXIV fans are just that, FFXIV fans. Most of them are not Final Fantasy fans, in fact, a lot of them don't even play singleplayer games. People (including those at SE) think a late PC port of FFXVI is gonna save it are in for a rude wakening. PC gamers are much more gameplay oriented than Playstation players. God of War only did okey number on PC, and it's ten times the better game than FF16. Rebirth is also absolutely cooked. You need to play Remake first, and not many people played that on PC.
i think it's a lot more likely for someone to be all in on the pc ecosystem than the console ecosystem when it comes to keeping themselves up to date with hardware though. outside of the west you'd have a good point about people not wanting to upgrade their pc, but i think there's a large enough number that will jump on the game once it comes to pc in the west that it'll meet targets
at the end of the day it's all speculation anyway, i bought both
This was very obvious even after release of XVI.
The FF hype is gone. And FF7 is not the mythical game some people believed it was. Not anymore at least. The remake should had been a PS3 game tbh.
The FF hype is gone. And FF7 is not the mythical game some people believed it was. Not anymore at least. The remake should had been a PS3 game tbh.
When was the last PS5 exclusive that wasn't first party and also wasn't published by Sony that sold really well?
Cause even if Sony pushes an exclusive like a First Party title, even if it isn't and it's still published by someone else, they can't seem to get these games to sell as well as their first party.
Like Spider-Man 2 was able to reach 10 million on its own, right? Didn't Ragnarok sell 10 million with most of its sales being on the PS5 version?
I wonder what it is that stops a lot of PS5 players from picking up titles like FF16, Rebirth and so on. Even though they are often pushed just as hard as those titles and sometimes feels like folks are even more vocal about.
Cause even if Sony pushes an exclusive like a First Party title, even if it isn't and it's still published by someone else, they can't seem to get these games to sell as well as their first party.
Like Spider-Man 2 was able to reach 10 million on its own, right? Didn't Ragnarok sell 10 million with most of its sales being on the PS5 version?
I wonder what it is that stops a lot of PS5 players from picking up titles like FF16, Rebirth and so on. Even though they are often pushed just as hard as those titles and sometimes feels like folks are even more vocal about.
These numbers straight outta the butt? Persona 5 is at 7 million only if you add the sales of P5 and P5 Royale together. VII Remake and XV both sold on par or better than that.
Persona 3 Remake is also still under both XVI and Rebirth though the numbers are way closer than they should be.
I do think Persona is set up to eclipse FF very shortly but let's not jump the gun yet. The landscape also looked ripe for FF after XV and VII Remake's success.
Foamstars was never gonna take off, FFXVI tries to appeal to the action crowd while sacrificing long time RPG fan appeal, and no one wanted the FFVII Remake to be a trilogy let alone a weird multiverse alternate sequel timeline mess.
They simply put a lot of money into not very good games. Not bad but not great, and very large and expensive. Might be time to try to AA the FF series and appeal to core fan old fucks again.
They simply put a lot of money into not very good games. Not bad but not great, and very large and expensive. Might be time to try to AA the FF series and appeal to core fan old fucks again.
Will need to look around for the link. I believe it was either from Ultimania or one of those translated Japanese interviews, talking about how Hamaguchi wanted Sephiroth to be the final boss and Nomura going "that doesn't seem right".
Yeah the problem with liveservice is the need for continuous development and the higher possibility of failure. They've tried multiplayer in their spinoff games though (like FF Explorers and Stranger of Paradise)
In some alternate timeline, Square has a HSR like Dissida game, where the characters are different versions of FF characters, that appeals to nostagia but don't require new gamers to have played the original games to want to spend money to spend money on.
Their HD division made losses this year so it's now quite clear the losses came from the two big games not hitting their marks. They'll probably be ok if each of them sold another 500 to 750 thousand copies at launch prices but it's clear the games don't have legs.
While Capcom is like who you want to be in sales I feel like Square should take a look at fromsoft for how to build up properties.
Like souls literally went from niche hardcore game selling 2 mil to 25 mil behemoth Elden Ring in the span of ~10 years.
I dunno what you can take away from Capcom outside I guess fixing up RE after 6 which sold gigantically well still. But the big Capcom move other than that was bring a portable game to the big consoles with MHW and the other was I guess fire Ono.
Like souls literally went from niche hardcore game selling 2 mil to 25 mil behemoth Elden Ring in the span of ~10 years.
I dunno what you can take away from Capcom outside I guess fixing up RE after 6 which sold gigantically well still. But the big Capcom move other than that was bring a portable game to the big consoles with MHW and the other was I guess fire Ono.
People buy game they want to play, and the "only on Playstation" label doesn't automatically make people want to play the game more. Ragnarok is a sequel to an extremely well-regarded game, and itself is a strong GotY contender. Spider-Man 2 is Spider-Man. FF16 and Rebirth are neither.
Rebirth is a sequel to an extremely well-regarded game, and itself is a strong GotY contender. Unfortunately critical acclaim doesn't always correlate with high end sales.
It's not an easy prediction to make, but at this point it seems like their best shot.
Wouldn't be the first time a game got a second wind with a PC release (as long as you don't make it Epic exclusive), but it's not a guarantee by any means.
Honestly, Square-Enix's exclusivity policy hasn't made sense in years, so at least it seems like this is the kick in the ass they needed to facilitate that change in mindset.
One can only hope it's enough to turn those numbers around, at least a bit.
Rebirth is absolutely a GOTY contender even if its sales aren't reflected in popularity.
Capcom literally had record profits and seven consecutive years of it. Look at RE, both remakes and new titles, look at MHW and MHR, look at how they bounced SF6 back. On that last one I can't help but wonder if SF5 was the last straw for the company with PlayStation exclusives since it did them no favors.
At any rate, it's not exactly a mysterious why Capcom is successful.
While somewhat expected given recent reports, I still am pretty surprised the FF games did so badly. Good critical reception, decent hype. Yes the exclusivity was gonna take out a decent chunk of sales, but damn.
Personally never played any FF game, but I do have FF7R in my Steam backlog (bought it late last year) cause I know I'll def enjoy it when all 3 games come out.
Personally never played any FF game, but I do have FF7R in my Steam backlog (bought it late last year) cause I know I'll def enjoy it when all 3 games come out.
what was the start of this problem? spending half a decade on ff versus xiii only to turn it into ffxv? spending three years hyping ffxiii and then turning it into a trilogy after a lackluster critical and fan response? beating around the bush for final fantasy vii remake for over a decade? sacrificing sakaguchi because of the movie?
Maybe some people didn't buy it, because they haven't finished the first one and/or thought they need to have played/finished the first one, before buying the second one? I know there is a recap, but I never found the time to finish the first one, that's why I didn't buy Rebirth.
Funnily enough I haven't bought/finished a FF game in a long time and I was a huge fan of the series as a teenager/young adult, but FF16 was the first one I actually bought and finished in a pretty short time. A friend of mine bought FF16 as his first real FF game and experience, we both liked the demo.
Funnily enough I haven't bought/finished a FF game in a long time and I was a huge fan of the series as a teenager/young adult, but FF16 was the first one I actually bought and finished in a pretty short time. A friend of mine bought FF16 as his first real FF game and experience, we both liked the demo.
Sony courting Square to bring FF7 over to PS1 instead of the n64. Sarcasm. Mostly.
FFXIII and the transition to HD put SE very behind the curve of Western developers.
They've been playing catch up ever since, and since a huge draw of FF games has been their budget, cinematic storytelling, and spectacle they've basically lost their core appeal to the big first party offerings that Sony has been putting out.
FFXV managed to claw its way back with its huge marketing campaign and appealing cast, and VII Remake sold on the power of the brand, but XVI and Rebirth just show how far the series has fallen out of mainstream relevancy.
It's why I think CBU3 would be the best suited for this. It's wild cause XVI, despite being a very good Action title, took some of the worst aspects of MMO design. I know it's hard to nail those elements well, and it could be a risk to have a game designed for longevity to bust, but I'd imagine some form of well supported MP element is the kind of thing that could really resonate with a wider audience at this point, and if they were to look to that direction, look no further than Monster Hunter or Granblue Relink.
Yup, that is the exact reason I did not buy it. I need to finish the first one first but I have just not been in the mood for it lately.
And my gaming time is mainly tied up to two live service games. FFXIV which still remains my favourite game and Genshin Impact. I just enjoy investing time into games and characters I know will grow with me and I got used to regular content updates. Single player games, while enjoyable and awesome, sometimes feel like wasted time to me when I could instead play a live service game.
I agree with this. I remember when WoW was super big and Diablo or Hearthstone or whatever released there were huge cross promotions etc. Ingame rewards in WoW for buying other games etc. and like you said. SE should capitalize on that.
Then again a huge chunk of the XIV audience is on PC which means releasing ok PC day one would make even more sense.
The ps3. Spending half a decade on all their tentpoles a generation ahead of everyone else.
That is nonsense. They tried to make the Remake project pg-13 friendly and Rebirth has sold considerably worse than XVI. XVI isn't even particularly graphic, it cuts away from most gore and doesn't have explicit nudity.
While I can't speak for everyone, I can provide insight from a person who is interested in Final Fantasy but does not play them often anymore. For 16 I had no interest in the western style and action combat, along with other things I've heard. I thought 15 was weak, I thought 13 was god awful, and thus skipped all the sequels it had. Effectively, the series has kind of felt unable to achieve the heights of the past, and often times feels ashamed of its roots. I'd love a big budget turn based combat game with great Japanese flair and high production values, yet Square seems incredibly disinterested in that, and I can't say if they are right or wrong. I feel they threw the baby out with the bathwater due to simply being being unable to produce such a game and blaming people being disinterested.
Final Fantasy VII? I was so excited to play through that game until I saw the story direction being a 'gotcha, sequel kinda maybe'. As someone who wanted to see the classic game redone in modern style, I could accept the combat which seemed fun, but the story direction was off-putting. I like a lot of what I heard about Rebirth, but I feel I have to play remake first and I'm not sure I want to commit that time.
One thing I will say though, people who played Remake seemed to hate how padded it was, were mixed on the story direction, and while not often talked about, I know many people who find the combat engine overwhelming and end up dropping the game for that. Square simple hasn't been able to make a pure critical darling that everyone seems fine with since arguably 10 and you could debate 12, but I'd not say so personally.
TLDR: Square seems unable to make a game that makes every side of their base happy, even when it comes to remaking their most beloved classic, and that's a problem from within.
Well-regarded by critics, but far more divided among players. Many fans didn't like the direction of Remake, and it failed to capture a new audience like GoW did. I am of course talking with the benefit of hindsight,but I think FF7 remake project as it is was doomed to fail. People are not interested in remaking one RPG into three giant AAA games. People don't like multiverse timeline shenanigan. People who have nostalgia for the characters and the world already got their fill. Square Enix is in a position that they can already see the the horrible fate of Part 3 (especially if Sony's contract is still in place), but they have to go through with it otherwise the reputation of the company is completely in ruin. It's a death march, and I can't even imagine what it's like to be a developer of Part 3 right now.
I'm playing Remake right now and I find the combat incredibly obtuse. I've played my fair share of ARPG in Souls, KH, Tales etc, and I've played numerous turn-based RPGs. Remake is neither. It doesn't feel like a combat system built for the mass audience.
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XIV 1.0 almost killing the franchise and requiring massive diversion of resources, maybe before that XII and the matsuno shenanigans.
By contrast XV was made in 3 years and change, broke even day 1, and went on to double its launch window sales. XIII's sequels were made on much smaller budgets and aggressively reused assets, they were a stopgap solution to address criticisms, make money and keep the franchise relevant while everything else was in limbo around XIV.
XVI was a grim dark politics game except no it actually isn't but it's also a character action game, a genre known for widespread popularity and appeal /s.
And Rebirth is the sequel to a remake of part of a 25 year old game that is on a different console and expects players to have played the original game, the first part of the remake and maybe dabbled in the compilation stuff.
In some ways, bar the XIV 1.0 catastrophe, "recent" square enix decisions are more baffling than some of their older ones, though these decisions aren't recent, they're like 7-10 years old at this point tbf.
Tbh. I don't think that was the problem.
I know it's taboo to say it but one of GTA's key demographics are teenagers.
Teens watch TV shows and movies with sex and violence.
And books lol.
Is the homeschooled American Christian that hates swearing really a target demographic?
Franchise legacy doesn't mean much, people didn't buy Balders Gate 3 because of the previous two installment in the 90s.
The total addressable market back then was significantly smaller.
FFXVI was also a bad "mature" game.
The L'Bour quest resolution was offensive in how it tried to wrap it up with "the racists realised they're racist and changed their ways" because racists accidently hit some kids with rocks instead of the slave race.
In the real world racists laugh at the dead children.
Jill as a pathetic character who is only useful off screen and on screen is just tired.
And that embarrassing "sex" scene, what were they thinking? And of course once they've had sex, she's pushed into the background and doesn't even take part in the ending sequence.
Benedikta and Clives mother also really highlighted how the writers have a problem with women.
I played 14 during lockdown and it's very apparent when those guys moved onto to work on 16.
Whatever it had to say about slavery was non sensical except to use it as set dressing.
They even repeated the FFXV thing of finding out that most of the world is dead / dying so the issues of the world don't matter.
0 sense of adventure to the world map.
Combat is essentially just pressing buttons in a MMO rotation waiting for cooldown timers to refresh, with a dodge button because they don't have server latency.
MMO combat is not appealing to the average person. Enemies don't even have weaknesses to elements.
The MMO dungeon design is not good.
Trash mobs, then a mini boss, then more trash mobs and the boss.
The same repetitive MMO design where just the visuals differ but that's because people have to repeat the same thing 10s of times to grind experience points.
Its lack of general appeal is not because it's mature, it's because it's a game made by a bunch of out of touch guys in their 50s.
Final Fantasy was relevent when they were making it in their 20s.
They did not adapt and make something with universal appeal.
Instead, as they said so themselves, they made everyone watch a box set of Game of Thrones and made this.
Can I truly trust this man's article. He has slandered the good name of Square Enix and Sony with [harsh realities from insider sources in defiance of blanket PR statement] and now he is [being mean with an article based on given facts, reports, and educated, reliably sourced conjecture] time and time again and I for one would never trust such a man in my life ever forever.
They wouldn't have disappointing sales numbers if they didn't wait
How can you type so much and so confidently while only spouting off subjective statements?
Multiverse stuff has been popular for a while. Avengers Endgame and the Spider-verse movies as one example. Evangelion Rebuild too. Everything Everywhere All At Once won 7 Oscars. People risked personal safety to go see Spider-Man No Way Home in theaters during Covid. People love nostalgia.
While I have issues with this guy too, he's saying the exact same things that a lot of other industry analysts have said over the past couple weeks as the situation has become more clear, and SE has also straight up said some of what is being covered, so it's not really worth shooting the messenger this time.
A potential theoretical FF live service game wouldn't even need to be multiplayer to find success. Honkai Star Rail has almost no multiplayer (it just has a friends list and the ability to rent another player's character temporarily for farmable content), and Genshin's multiplayer is similarly completely optional (and most of the fanbase there only ever uses it to do random pic/video-worthy shit with friends and strangers, or to briefly circumvent time gated stuff when a new character releases).
I'd argue that nowadays, forced multiplayer is actually a big turn-off for the crowd that got into Genshin and HSR. Before both games entered the gacha market, most gachas had some form of competitive leaderboard aspect in order to bait people into pulling more and more to keep up with the 'multiplayer meta', but Genshin and HSR still ended up much more successful without that aspect and going all in towards a more compelling single player direction instead.
It's why I envision a FF game that goes all in on exploration, especially with airship travel being a key part of it too. A gameplay loop focusing on exploring and continuously building up your party + designing and upgrading your airship to explore into more dangerous territory is the type of game that would be easier to justify frequent new content updates.
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Another huge part of the problem is how development with recent mainline FF entries have so strongly felt that they've been driven by corporate decisions. XVI, for example, very clearly tried to tap into the popularity of something like The Witcher 3, a game that released... 8 years before XVI ended up releasing. Even GOT, another huge inspiration, plummeted in popularity before XVI came out. Obviously not saying something like TW3 isn't still vastly popular, but with how long development now takes, you cannot let 'trends' alone dictate the games you're making.
The RE/Capcom comparisons are interesting because a huge part of the success of RE7 was in it essentially rebooting the series i.e., taking it back to its roots. I feel you can't do the same with FF, nor would Square ever dream of trying to do something like that.
The RE/Capcom comparisons are interesting because a huge part of the success of RE7 was in it essentially rebooting the series i.e., taking it back to its roots. I feel you can't do the same with FF, nor would Square ever dream of trying to do something like that.
While this is maybe a bit harsh, I do think XVI is probably the most insular game I've played a long time. In many ways it feels like it was made by people that haven't played games in the last decade other than FFXIV, and whose idea of writing a story is just to crib stuff wholesale from other media. Then as you say the handling of the dark and mature stuff its...its fuckin terrible. Overall not an irredeemably bad game or anything but when you hold it up next to Sony first party stuff which seems to be the part of the pool they wanted to swim in, its chalk and cheese.
God you had me for a sec there.
The fact that the man wrote a report last year about how producers were running games like their personal fiefdoms, and people were quick to smear him as an "enemy of PS" or some such nonsense, and now their slides for their big new vision includes a push for more accountability of producers etc.
Idk maybe a Bloomberg journalist who reports on squeenix as a tiny fraction of their job doesn't hold a petty grudge.
The fact of the matter is only a third of the people who played Remake got Rebirth. The rest, for whatever reason, just left. I can only speak from the online discourse I see and my personal experience, and padding and multiverse are two big factors. I still think they are good games mind you, especially Rebirth from what I've seen.
Sorry but this isn't really substantiated by reality. The division among players is probably just amplified based on what threads you read or who you talk to. If we look at the actual numbers available across comparative resources, both Rebirth and Ragnarok are very similar in terms of being both critically acclaimed and highly favourable among players. Both are also without a doubt GOTY contenders. Hard to argue otherwise.
God of War: Ragnarok
The freezing winds of Fimbulwinter have come to Midgard, making survival for Kratos, Atreus, and Mimir in the Norse wilds even more challenging than before. Kratos, still bearing the knowledge of his past mistakes, wants to spare Atreus the bloody lessons he learned from his conflict with gods...
www.metacritic.com
Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH is the new story in the FINAL FANTASY VII remake project, a reimagining of the iconic original game into three standalone titles by its original creators. In this game, players will enjoy various new elements as the story unfolds, culminating in the party’s journey to...
www.metacritic.com
On the bright side, we can finally drop FF9's title of underrated cult classic of the series and give it to a REAL gem like Rebirth 🙏
Stupid bait aside though it's a shame Rebirth had to be the one this happens to when it's genuinely a great game deserving of being a mega hit.
At the same time, they were kind of overdue for a wake up call especially regarding shitty exclusivity deals that just end up hurting growth in the long run. It's not the sole reason for the decline but pulling off stunts like Remake being PS exclusive, and THEN when porting it to PC almost 2 years later making it Epic exclusive for a good 6 months is just kind of.....yeah
Bit anxious how this may affect Part 3 but at the same time I'm genuinely interested to see what they'll do for XVII or whatever the next main main game will be.
Stupid bait aside though it's a shame Rebirth had to be the one this happens to when it's genuinely a great game deserving of being a mega hit.
At the same time, they were kind of overdue for a wake up call especially regarding shitty exclusivity deals that just end up hurting growth in the long run. It's not the sole reason for the decline but pulling off stunts like Remake being PS exclusive, and THEN when porting it to PC almost 2 years later making it Epic exclusive for a good 6 months is just kind of.....yeah
Bit anxious how this may affect Part 3 but at the same time I'm genuinely interested to see what they'll do for XVII or whatever the next main main game will be.
First when Tetsuya Takahashi wanted to make another Xenogears and Squaresoft said no, letting him leave the company instead. Then after that exiling Hironobu Sakaguchi from the company and deciding to merge with Enix, expanding and stretching the company into a corporate behemoth it will be unable to sustain. And then finally at a key turning point when Yasumi Matsuno struggled with producing, writing, designing, and directing Final Fantasy XII, management let him fail and resign rather than supporting him unconditionally and seeing the true potential of the game to turn their entire franchise around into the new RPG era that mainstream audiences craved.
Three times Square turned their backs on men with real vision. They trusted bankers when they could have trusted artists. After 2006, the great decline began. Their blood of failure is forever upon their heads.
If they were to use FFXVI as a template, it might be wise for them to abandon more of the character action elements of the system. I think that's the part that holds it back, while character action fans feel that the combat is not complex enough. So you end up not pleasing both sides of the fence.
The break glass part was something said by fans who think that Square can just conjure an FF7 remake quickly, not Square Enix. There's no such thing as a emergency button that can save a game company when games takes years to make.
I think they can get back to the roots if they want to. 4 warriors of light and 4 crystals. Go from there. Make it big budget Bravely Default.
I would personally adore that, but just can't see them ever doing that. The 'doubling down' on AAA releases from here on out proves they're not interested in doing anything like that, unfortunately. It's the totally wrong direction for them to take imo.
A lot of people in this thread would have you think the PS5 thing is a big impediment, but I'm pretty sure if it had a PS4 port it would not have performed that much better, probably stronger in Japan, but I think people just don't want to believe a lot of people weren't happy with Remake.
Kind of like MGS fans thought everyone adored 2 because people bought 2, but somehow couldn't connect the dots that 2 sold because of people loving 1, and 3 sold a lot less because people were put off from 2 in contrast despite 3 being a strong game.