Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,101
The fact of the matter is only a third of the people who played Remake got Rebirth. The rest, for whatever reason, just left. I can only speak from the online discourse I see and my personal experience, and padding and multiverse are two big factors. I still think they are good games mind you, especially Rebirth from what I've seen.

On your way to the conclusion that "people don't like multiverse stuff despite lots of evidence to the contrary" did you at least entertain the notion that maybe not everyone that played Remake on their PS4 has upgraded to a PS5 yet? Like the Remake series can be faulted for being stretched to three games but saying it's because it has multiverse stuff and that's unappealing to people is a reach.
 

CheapJi

Member
Apr 24, 2018
2,487
Sorry but this isn't really substantiated by reality. The division among players is probably just amplified based on what threads you read or who you talk to. If we look at the actual numbers available across comparative resources, both Rebirth and Ragnarok are very similar in terms of being both critically acclaimed and highly favourable among players. Both are also without a doubt GOTY contenders. Hard to argue otherwise.

God of War: Ragnarok

The freezing winds of Fimbulwinter have come to Midgard, making survival for Kratos, Atreus, and Mimir in the Norse wilds even more challenging than before. Kratos, still bearing the knowledge of his past mistakes, wants to spare Atreus the bloody lessons he learned from his conflict with gods...
God of War Ragnarok has 94 MC with 150 reviews, 8.1 Userscore with 11,375 user ratings. (2 years old now)

Final Fantasy VII Rebirth

FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH is the new story in the FINAL FANTASY VII remake project, a reimagining of the iconic original game into three standalone titles by its original creators. In this game, players will enjoy various new elements as the story unfolds, culminating in the party’s journey to...
Final Fantasy VII Rebirth has 92 MC with 149 reviews, 8.8 Userscore with 3,786 user ratings. (3 months old now)
When did Metacritic user reviews meant anything tbh. Specially the amount of user ratings, By the same logic remake is sitting at 8.5k something reviews after 4 years. Is that amount bad? Is it good? The divide between fans that want modern and fans that want classic style games absolutely exists and doesn't help that people in charge insist on making weird mistakes (exclusivity for example).
 

Makoto Yuki

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,680
Hopefully we will see Rebirth ship to PC quicker than Remake. Also no Epic timed-exclusive nonsense. Just release it on Steam and Epic at the same time.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,879
Singapore
I also think that after decades of making games that were geared at all ages or teens making an M-rated game with gore, sex scenes, and swearing was a big misfire. Would have been fine for a spin-off, but I think it was a mistake to do it in a main numbered entry. I think a lot of the appeal of the series was that it could tackle heavy subjects while not getting overly graphic.
I actually feel that it's the foul language that ill suits FFXVI the most. Being M-rated and having more violence and some sex scenes isn't that much of a leap from some of the more serious FF games, and are occasional things when a scene calls for it. But the language in the English version of the game is downright embarrassing to me. I think Koji Fox really let himself go and someone should have provided a second opinion on this. There's way too much swearing and it comes off as cartoonish. As it isn't isolated to any particular scene, and characters just swear like sailor anywhere, even in mundane sidequests, it also becomes uncomfortable to play around children, family members, and some friends.

Very strange for an all-ages brand game that is usually fun for all ages. Especially given what the team has said about wanting to reach younger audiences and getting them into the game, it feels like they could have gone much further with being accessible if they just held back on some of that. The dialogue doesn't even sound natural or good, it just feels edgelord tryhard. Unfortunate.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
634
A lot of people in this thread would have you think the PS5 thing is a big impediment, but I'm pretty sure if it had a PS4 port it would not have performed that much better, probably stronger in Japan, but I think people just don't want to believe a lot of people weren't happy with Remake.

Kind of like MGS fans thought everyone adored 2 because people bought 2, but somehow couldn't connect the dots that 2 sold because of people loving 1, and 3 sold a lot less because people were put off from 2 in contrast despite 3 being a strong game.

How would it not be a big impediment?

If you cut the installbase in half therein alone is less sales potential. Added to that not everyone who has a Ps4 and remake obviously has a PS5 while Rebirth requires one. I have no doubt that a cross generation game would have cleared 3 million launch sales easily.
 

Saito Hikari

Member
Jul 3, 2021
2,934
On your way to the conclusion that "people don't like multiverse stuff despite lots of evidence to the contrary" did you at least entertain the notion that maybe not everyone that played Remake on their PS4 has upgraded to a PS5 yet? Like the Remake series can be faulted for being stretched to three games but saying it's because it has multiverse stuff and that's unappealing to people is a reach.
Yeah, the few times I've waded into Japanese article/YT comments discussing this, I saw WAY more comments about people not upgrading from PS4 to PS5 as being their primary reason for not buying Rebirth, rather than the multiverse stuff. People displeased with the multiverse might still be interested in Rebirth, but the chance of them still jumping in out of curiosity drops off a cliff if they have to buy an entire new console just to experience it.
 

Celestial Descend

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Aug 15, 2022
3,557
On your way to the conclusion that "people don't like multiverse stuff despite lots of evidence to the contrary" did you at least entertain the notion that maybe not everyone that played Remake on their PS4 has upgraded to a PS5 yet? Like the Remake series can be faulted for being stretched to three games but saying it's because it has multiverse stuff and that's unappealing to people is a reach.
PS5 has been around for long enough, sold more than 50 million. Anyone who has played Remake (not counting the two dozens of PC players), and really wants to play its sequel, should've already got a PS5. The install base argument only makes sense for games whose sales ceiling is limited by the install base, and there are very few of them. FF7 Remake is not Mario Kart.

And to clarify the multiverse bit. I'm not saying people don't like multiverse in general, they just don't like it forced upon a franchise that for over two decades, didn't have any of it. It feels trend-chasing, and it cheapens everything before it. The super hero cross-over and multiverse stuff has been going on for decades. It has always been part of it. Imagine multiverse being introduced into Game of Throne.
 
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Genesius

Member
Nov 2, 2018
15,982
It's interesting how the whole concept of a new world for every iteration of FF has gone from being the franchise's identity to being this albatross that now makes the franchise feel like it doesn't have one. Every mainline game is a complete gamble and it's lasted so long that when they try to pivot back to more well-worn territory with the 7 saga, FF has already largely been written off.

Guess we just have to hope that all those people who have been yelling about PC versions will actually buy them when they come out.
 

Arithmetician

Member
Oct 9, 2019
2,065
Tbh. I don't think that was the problem.
I know it's taboo to say it but one of GTA's key demographics are teenagers.
Teens watch TV shows and movies with sex and violence.
And books lol.
Is the homeschooled American Christian that hates swearing really a target demographic?

Franchise legacy doesn't mean much, people didn't buy Balders Gate 3 because of the previous two installment in the 90s.
The total addressable market back then was significantly smaller.

FFXVI was also a bad "mature" game.

The L'Bour quest resolution was offensive in how it tried to wrap it up with "the racists realised they're racist and changed their ways" because racists accidently hit some kids with rocks instead of the slave race.
In the real world racists laugh at the dead children.

Jill as a pathetic character who is only useful off screen and on screen is just tired.

And that embarrassing "sex" scene, what were they thinking? And of course once they've had sex, she's pushed into the background and doesn't even take part in the ending sequence.

Benedikta and Clives mother also really highlighted how the writers have a problem with women.

I played 14 during lockdown and it's very apparent when those guys moved onto to work on 16.

Whatever it had to say about slavery was non sensical except to use it as set dressing.

YES thank you. I really enjoyed XVI but it was "cringe: the game" and FF VII Remake and Rebirth are much of the same stuff. And I love all three of those games, but at the same time I can see very clearly why they are not landing the same way as the Last of Us, God of War, Uncharted, etc.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,452
I like FFXVI and it's among my favorite of the offline post-PS1 FFs but it was a pretty straightforward action game. imo that's why it didn't generate the buzz you'd expect from a mainline FF some years ago

on a similar note while I think FF7 Remake ranged from decent to great I don't think it made the greatest pitch for two sequels, and it scratched that itch of "remember FF7? that was cool..." and everybody just moved on from that

that said I think FF in and of itself is fine, but the next mainline really needs to take strides with regards to the series' future
 

NukeRunner

Member
Feb 8, 2024
436
How would it not be a big impediment?

If you cut the installbase in half therein alone is less sales potential. Added to that not everyone who has a Ps4 and remake obviously has a PS5 and Rebirth requires one. I have no doubt that a cross generation game would have cleared 3 million easily.

I could be mistaken, but I believe the PS2 and PS1 both had much smaller user bases than the current 60 million units the PS5 has, and both of them had far more significant FF releases sales wise at that point in time. Final Fantasy fans are obviously going to be older, more hardcore fans. The series initial explosion happened back in the 90s, so even if 7 was your first game in the series, you're likely in your 40s by now, and not the type of gamer buying a system 4+ years later. If people cared about the game, they'd buy it, it's why games like Helldivers or Spiderman 2 can still sell tons of units on one system, the core, most hardcore base is likely already present there, with a broader push coming when GTA6 hits.

I'm not an expert on this series history sales wise though, but I'm pretty sure that's right, but please feel free to correct me if not. Obviously some people grow out of series while new people get brought in, and you can argue FF is failing to do that, but I'm pretty sure if Square made another monumental Final Fantasy release without any 'buts' attached, it would still sell incredibly well even if the userbase is 'only' 60 million units right now.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,280
First when Tetsuya Takahashi wanted to make another Xenogears and Squaresoft said no, letting him leave the company instead. Then after that exiling Hironobu Sakaguchi from the company and deciding to merge with Enix, expanding and stretching the company into a corporate behemoth it will be unable to sustain. And then finally at a key turning point when Yasumi Matsuno struggled with producing, writing, designing, and directing Final Fantasy XII, management let him fail and resign rather than supporting him unconditionally and seeing the true potential of the game to turn their entire franchise around into the new RPG era that mainstream audiences craved.

Three times Square turned their backs on men with real vision. They trusted bankers when they could have trusted artists. After 2006, the great decline began. Their blood of failure is forever upon their heads.

i had considered mentioning matsuno's departure after ffxii. personally, that was the last time i played or truly cared about a new final fantasy game.
 

Saito Hikari

Member
Jul 3, 2021
2,934
First when Tetsuya Takahashi wanted to make another Xenogears and Squaresoft said no, letting him leave the company instead. Then after that exiling Hironobu Sakaguchi from the company and deciding to merge with Enix, expanding and stretching the company into a corporate behemoth it will be unable to sustain. And then finally at a key turning point when Yasumi Matsuno struggled with producing, writing, designing, and directing Final Fantasy XII, management let him fail and resign rather than supporting him unconditionally and seeing the true potential of the game to turn their entire franchise around into the new RPG era that mainstream audiences craved.

Three times Square turned their backs on men with real vision. They trusted bankers when they could have trusted artists. After 2006, the great decline began. Their blood of failure is forever upon their heads.
I generally played most FF games about a decade after each game originally released, by way of being a GBA/DS and later PC player.

XII was the only single player mainline FF game I played that I thought was truly ahead of its time. All the other single player mainline games I played were varying degrees of 'great for their time, but only because nothing else at the time of their original release could compete, and they wouldn't hold up today'. Though I found IX particularly charming with how it uses its cast of characters.

Also, in regards to Matsuno, it really is mind-boggling how SE kind of just let things get bad enough to get him to leave. Matsuno made TWO games with perfect Famitsu scores, back when those scores actually had a lot of weight to them.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,101
First when Tetsuya Takahashi wanted to make another Xenogears and Squaresoft said no, letting him leave the company instead. Then after that exiling Hironobu Sakaguchi from the company and deciding to merge with Enix, expanding and stretching the company into a corporate behemoth it will be unable to sustain. And then finally at a key turning point when Yasumi Matsuno struggled with producing, writing, designing, and directing Final Fantasy XII, management let him fail and resign rather than supporting him unconditionally and seeing the true potential of the game to turn their entire franchise around into the new RPG era that mainstream audiences craved.

Three times Square turned their backs on men with real vision. They trusted bankers when they could have trusted artists. After 2006, the great decline began. Their blood of failure is forever upon their heads.

I'd add not letting Tabata finish XV's DLC to that list but yeah, Square has had terrible leadership and was successful despite it. They're just now paying the price.


Yeah, the few times I've waded into Japanese article/YT comments discussing this, I saw WAY more comments about people not upgrading from PS4 to PS5 as being their primary reason for not buying Rebirth, rather than the multiverse stuff. People displeased with the multiverse might still be interested in Rebirth, but the chance of them still jumping in out of curiosity drops off a cliff if they have to buy an entire new console just to experience it.

Japan is one of the countries where the price of the PS5 went up too, didn't it?

PS5 has been around for long enough, sold more than 50 million. Anyone who has played Remake (not counting the two dozens of PC players), and really wants to play its sequel, should've already got a PS5. The install base argument only makes sense for games whose sales ceiling is limited by the install base, and there are very few of them. FF7 Remake is not Mario Kart.

And to clarify the multiverse bit. I'm not saying people don't like multiverse in general, they just don't like it forced upon a franchise that for over two decades, didn't have any of it. It feels trend-chasing, and it cheapens everything before it. The super hero cross-over and multiverse stuff has been going on for decades. It has always been part of it. Imagine multiverse being introduced into Game of Throne.

I just can't agree with your point when even Sony, whose game budgets are at 200 million and above, committed games to being PS5 exclusive for years. Miles Morales, Horizon Forbidden West, and God of War Ragnarok still had PS4 versions and those had much bigger first games on the system than Remake.
 

TheRaidenPT

Editor-in-Chief, Hyped Pixels
Verified
Jun 11, 2018
6,021
Lisbon, Portugal
Honestly they are having a hard time convincing new fans to join.

Plus every time they release a game, they end up being really big games and that's only aimed at old school people.

If you look at the trophies you can see more than 50% of people haven't gone by past Chapter 9 in FF7 Rebirth
 

CheapJi

Member
Apr 24, 2018
2,487
Tbh. I don't think that was the problem.
I know it's taboo to say it but one of GTA's key demographics are teenagers.
Teens watch TV shows and movies with sex and violence.
And books lol.
Is the homeschooled American Christian that hates swearing really a target demographic?

Franchise legacy doesn't mean much, people didn't buy Balders Gate 3 because of the previous two installment in the 90s.
The total addressable market back then was significantly smaller.

FFXVI was also a bad "mature" game.

The L'Bour quest resolution was offensive in how it tried to wrap it up with "the racists realised they're racist and changed their ways" because racists accidently hit some kids with rocks instead of the slave race.
In the real world racists laugh at the dead children.

Jill as a pathetic character who is only useful off screen and on screen is just tired.

And that embarrassing "sex" scene, what were they thinking? And of course once they've had sex, she's pushed into the background and doesn't even take part in the ending sequence.

Benedikta and Clives mother also really highlighted how the writers have a problem with women.

I played 14 during lockdown and it's very apparent when those guys moved onto to work on 16.

Whatever it had to say about slavery was non sensical except to use it as set dressing.

They even repeated the FFXV thing of finding out that most of the world is dead / dying so the issues of the world don't matter.

0 sense of adventure to the world map.
Combat is essentially just pressing buttons in a MMO rotation waiting for cooldown timers to refresh, with a dodge button because they don't have server latency.

MMO combat is not appealing to the average person. Enemies don't even have weaknesses to elements.

The MMO dungeon design is not good.
Trash mobs, then a mini boss, then more trash mobs and the boss.
The same repetitive MMO design where just the visuals differ but that's because people have to repeat the same thing 10s of times to grind experience points.

Its lack of general appeal is not because it's mature, it's because it's a game made by a bunch of out of touch guys in their 50s.
Final Fantasy was relevent when they were making it in their 20s.

They did not adapt and make something with universal appeal.
Instead, as they said so themselves, they made everyone watch a box set of Game of Thrones and made this.
I really liked 16 but I remember there was a scene where Clive was remembering his dad or it was a flashback and he was like "yeah my dad has slaves but he's very kind to them so it's ok" or smt along those lines and I was just sitting there thinking how fucking stupid the game is lmao.
Wish I remembered when the scene comes up so I could send a video of it.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,101
I really liked 16 but I remember there was a scene where Clive was remembering his dad or it was a flashback and he was like "yeah my dad has slaves but he's very kind to them so it's ok" or smt along those lines and I was just sitting there thinking how fucking stupid the game is lmao.
Wish I remembered when the scene comes up so I could send a video of it.

Not sure if it's the same one but there's a side quest involving Joshua where you do something for the people that helped him where you find out their dad had a plan on how to free all the bearers but unfortunately was murdered before he could enact it despite ruling for as long as he did.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,879
Singapore
FFXII is the perfect starting template for the sort of "mature" FF that would resonate perfectly with modern audiences in a 10-20 million sales level.

Scale it up. Give us huge cities. Expansive wilderness. Secret hunts to be found all over the game.

Real political intrigue. Adult characters who don't act like 13 year olds. Moral ambiguity without unneeded edginess.

A sense of adventure. A tactical battle system that rewards players for trying weird shit out and seeing fun results.

And cinematic direction that actually complements the cost of the production values.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,622
Honestly they are having a hard time convincing new fans to join.

Plus every time they release a game, they end up being really big games and that's only aimed at old school people.

If you look at the trophies you can see more than 50% of people haven't gone by past Chapter 9 in FF7 Rebirth

not that old school or it'd be ATB lol
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,280
FFXII is the perfect starting template for the sort of "mature" FF that would resonate perfectly with modern audiences in a 10-20 million sales level.

Scale it up. Give us huge cities. Expansive wilderness. Secret hunts to be found all over the game.

Real political intrigue. Adult characters who don't act like 13 year olds. Moral ambiguity without unneeded edginess.

A sense of adventure. A tactical battle system that rewards players for trying weird shit out and seeing fun results.

And cinematic direction that actually complements the cost of the production values.

xenoblade (1) kinda being this is what led me to love that game so much. not a surprise given who it comes from though.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,708
I would personally adore that, but just can't see them ever doing that. The 'doubling down' on AAA releases from here on out proves they're not interested in doing anything like that, unfortunately. It's the totally wrong direction for them to take imo.

It's doesn't have to be an AA game. Could be an AAA attempt. Doesn't even have to be turn based.

Fabula Nova Crystalis was supposed to be their big reimagining of what FF mythos is but that fell on its head and broke. On hindsight, it was probably something that should have been kept internal and not shared with the public. At the same time it was also the last time that Square attempted to have some kind of shared direction as to where the franchise to go to and what elements should be shared between the games.

They should try to do the whole 4 warriors, 4 crystals thing again. Without the whole " actually the crystals and gods are bad" angle that they've been on for the past few games.
 

D O T

Member
Jan 1, 2021
4,303
none. the game is already budgeted and has started (pre)production.
and the exclusive playstation deal probably covered 80% of the games development cost.
tenor.gif
 

CheapJi

Member
Apr 24, 2018
2,487
Not sure if it's the same one but there's a side quest involving Joshua where you do something for the people that helped him where you find out their dad had a plan on how to free all the bearers but unfortunately was murdered before he could enact it despite ruling for as long as he did.
I really didn't do many side quests so It most likely isn't from this and I don't really remember them mentioning his dad wanted to free the slaves at that point. It just came out of nowhere.
 

Scherzo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,092
Full tweet for those not using Twitter anymore:

Square Enix said:
-FF16 sales fell short of expectations. Initial momentum was in line with expectations, but the games failed to reach FY goal as its momentum slowed. No updates from sales number last announced at 3 million
-FF7 Rebirth sales fell short of expectations. Initial momentum didn't reach an internal target. No sales number to share
-Foamstars fell short of expectations. Initial momentum didn't reach an internal target. No sales number to share
-Remains confident FF16 can achieve its goal over the original 18-month sales plan. Also, sales of Rebirth and Foamstars aren't necessarily bad.
-Reorganized develoment team into five console teams, one smartphone game team
-Has been relied too much on an individual's creativity. Will promote sharing game making how-how among teams and will seek best balance of individual creativity and organizational discipline
-DQ12 remains under development.

Investors react:
-sell shares heavily, stocks fell to the day's trading limit
-concerns are pipelines have become too empty, no big titles that can lift up the company's top line over the next couple of years


I'm curious if anyone asked if there is still a space for production of titles that fall between Smartphone development and AAA Tentpoles.
 

Atom

Member
Jul 25, 2021
11,839
If you cut the installbase in half therein alone is less sales potential. Added to that not everyone who has a Ps4 and remake obviously has a PS5 while Rebirth requires one. I have no doubt that a cross generation game would have cleared 3 million launch sales easily.

Install base (beyond clear constraints) is only really relevant when the software you're talking about is some sort of evergreen massively popular title that each marginal consumer will purchase at some point along side their console. Stuff like GTAVI would be constrained by an install base if it launched in 2020, or Mario Kart 8 Deluxe saw growth with the growth of the install base of the switch. Said differently, how likely do you think it is that the 100 millionth person buying a PS5 would want to buy XVI, versus the 100 millionth switch owner wanting to buy Mario Kart. All the people who wanted to buy FFXVI probably are in the first 100mn PS5 owners, but the same can't be said for an eternal party game like MK.

If FF sells to the same sort of core-ish demographic group of fans, and just repeats that trick over and over, it doesn't matter that there are less PS5s on the market than there are PS4s. XV selling more than Remake on a much smaller install base (counting PS4), and then Remake selling similar numbers initially to XVI despite being on a larger install base suggests that, overall, there's just not much sensitivity of the franchise to install base by and large, that it has limited appeal and popularity, and that that popularity might be regressing over time.

Not sure if it's the same one but there's a side quest involving Joshua where you do something for the people that helped him where you find out their dad had a plan on how to free all the bearers but unfortunately was murdered before he could enact it despite ruling for as long as he did.

Its up there with the sidequest where Clive discovers that people are doing bad things to the slaves, and so he takes power into his own hands to rectify the situation. Except he actually doesn't, he sort of just says some mean words and fucks off iirc, and its some other dude who goes and exacts extrajudicial justice and then you get the big QUEST COMPLETE notification.

And then there's fuckin Lubor. Jfc Lubor.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
634
I could be mistaken, but I believe the PS2 and PS1 both had much smaller user bases than the current 60 million units the PS5 has, and both of them had far more significant FF releases sales wise at that point in time. Final Fantasy fans are obviously going to be older, more hardcore fans. The series initial explosion happened back in the 90s, so even if 7 was your first game in the series, you're likely in your 40s by now, and not the type of gamer buying a system 4+ years later. If people cared about the game, they'd buy it, it's why games like Helldivers or Spiderman 2 can still sell tons of units on one system, the core, most hardcore base is likely already present there, with a broader push coming when GTA6 hits.

I'm not an expert on this series history sales wise though, but I'm pretty sure that's right, but please feel free to correct me if not. Obviously some people grow out of series while new people get brought in, and you can argue FF is failing to do that, but I'm pretty sure if Square made another monumental Final Fantasy release without any 'buts' attached, it would still sell incredibly well even if the userbase is 'only' 60 million units right now.


I mean that the franchise is losing relevance and mindshare with each passing year is no secret. Back then the market was different though and JRPGs were one of the biggest genres and also the biggest bang for your buck. Pretty much no JRPG (yes I am excluding Pokemon) manages to sell super crazy 10+ mil numbers. XV managed to do it but it has been the exception so far.

Though my point was that if you played Remake on PS4 and if you liked it that doesn't automatically mean you will get a PS5 for the next installment. I'm sure there are people out there (I only buy PS because I want to play FF) but I think having Rebirth on PS5 only while Remake is on PS4 and PC is a natural barrier to a certain degree in any case.

Could there be a perfect storm FF that gives SE their BOTW moment and sells crazy amounts? Maybe but how would that even look like? Would it still be a story driven RPG? Not sure..
Before XVI released I actually thought XVI would be selling huge numbers. I at least was super hyped, got the CE and seemed like it had great momentum especially after the demo. I was overall a bit disappointed with the game later on but I felt the pre release hype was strong. I am kinda losing my point here but at this point I am simply not sure if there is a way for FF to ever sell as well as SE wants to with their current story driven nature and style.
 

Elyian

Member
Feb 7, 2018
2,627
While I have issues with this guy too, he's saying the exact same things that a lot of other industry analysts have said over the past couple weeks as the situation has become more clear, and SE has also straight up said some of what is being covered, so it's not really worth shooting the messenger this time.


A potential theoretical FF live service game wouldn't even need to be multiplayer to find success. Honkai Star Rail has almost no multiplayer (it just has a friends list and the ability to rent another player's character temporarily for farmable content), and Genshin's multiplayer is similarly completely optional (and most of the fanbase there only ever uses it to do random pic/video-worthy shit with friends and strangers, or to briefly circumvent time gated stuff when a new character releases).

I'd argue that nowadays, forced multiplayer is actually a big turn-off for the crowd that got into Genshin and HSR. Before both games entered the gacha market, most gachas had some form of competitive leaderboard aspect in order to bait people into pulling more and more to keep up with the 'multiplayer meta', but Genshin and HSR still ended up much more successful without that aspect and going all in towards a more compelling single player direction instead.

It's why I envision a FF game that goes all in on exploration, especially with airship travel being a key part of it too. A gameplay loop focusing on exploring and continuously building up your party + designing and upgrading your airship to explore into more dangerous territory is the type of game that would be easier to justify frequent new content updates.
The multiplayer aspect just seems like something that could catch on if done well, but some form of long-term support to stretch the legs of the game out for a few more years while also keeping the playerbase engaged seems like an obvious route for the franchise to head in if they worry about long dev times. I even agree that forced MP content could be a turn off. It's one of the things I personally love about Granblue Relink; I don't feel at all obligated to play with other players, and I solo run all the content that game has to offer. That game found a great gameplay loop that kept me going longer than I thought it would, and I think that kind of retention is what could help this franchise moving forward. If it goes the route of HSR and Genshin where its literally just extra content with new missions/content/areas, fine by me, but I think it needs SOMETHING while not compromising on the single player experience.

If they were to use FFXVI as a template, it might be wise for them to abandon more of the character action elements of the system. I think that's the part that holds it back, while character action fans feel that the combat is not complex enough. So you end up not pleasing both sides of the fence.



The break glass part was something said by fans who think that Square can just conjure an FF7 remake quickly, not Square Enix. There's no such thing as a emergency button that can save a game company when games takes years to make.



I think they can get back to the roots if they want to. 4 warriors of light and 4 crystals. Go from there. Make it big budget Bravely Default.
I agree to an extent on moving away from making it AS actiony/mechanically deep. If they were to work off of XVI, I fully expect that they'd need to build off by splitting all those kinds of ability and utilities that Clive gets with each Eikon into separate characters/jobs. They can still keep it action based since that game feels great to play, and just work on building 6-8 diverse jobs that maybe borrow from both XIV jobs and the utility from some of the Eikons in XVI, and just try to make each job feel a bit deeper to accommodate the loss of something like 3 Eikon skill switching. If each job felt as deep and unique as say, weapon types from Monster Hunter, with special skills added in for magics and weapon abilities like Granblue Relink, the loss of "Eikon switching" or something similar wouldn't be missed as much, especially if they can manage character switching amongst a party of 3 or 4(that would seem like a tall order).

I think they'd also IDEALLY go and improve the general world flow so that exploration is... Actually a thing next time round, and really go all in on things like side dungeons spread throughout regions with unique biomes, ala Dragons Dogma 2/Elden Ring/Tears of the Kingdom. Doesn't even need to be a sand box open world like those, I think they could easily get away with making it closer to something like FFXIV with an interconnected world, but expanded on for the modern AAA game so it just "feels" bigger, cause that game handled it perfectly, and they should try to build off that.

From there, the can add hunts monthly with new monsters, work on FF collabs(like XIV does) with unique fights, make "expansions" with new dungeons to play through either solo or in a queue, and even add fun side content like home building or something.
 

idiotmode

Member
Jul 30, 2022
216
I think being M rated isn't really an issue, an airing of the grievances with XVI isn't exactly proof of why it didn't sell well post launch. Rebirth which is way more balanced tonally with Yakuza level cringe at worst and actual universal critical acclaim has the same issue with its sales tail and even initial output. Good WoM did it no good. XV with mixed to outright negative reception in most spaces had a longer tail and higher initial impact. I think trying to pin it on any one thing is dumb.

The factors that led to this are numerous but what's done is done. IMO Square can't save 7R3 since it's got trilogyitis and it's coming off a game with low sales so it's going to be rough for it. CS1 has the ability to make a great game though so moving forward as quickly as possible and ending strong is the best thing they can do for now. Focusing on how to improve moving forward is the whole point of the restructuring after all. CS3 has mentioned working on a new title for some time but that isn't seeing the light of day for another 2 years minimum imo but it'll be under this new policy for sure. Asano will likely launch something this year probably an announcement this June I'm guessing. For the other two remaining divisions of console dev, I'm thinking new IP from them. Or older IPs getting the upgrade treatment they mentioned.
 

NukeRunner

Member
Feb 8, 2024
436
I mean that the franchise is losing relevance and mindshare with each passing year is no secret. Back then the market was different though and JRPGs were one of the biggest genres and also the biggest bang for your buck. Pretty much no JRPG (yes I am excluding Pokemon) manages to sell super crazy 10+ mil numbers. XV managed to do it but it has been the exception so far.

Though my point was that if you played Remake on PS4 and if you liked it that doesn't automatically mean you will get a PS5 for the next installment. I'm sure there are people out there (I only buy PS because I want to play FF) but I think having Rebirth on PS5 only while Remake is on PS4 and PC is a natural barrier to a certain degree in any case.

Could there be a perfect storm FF that gives SE their BOTW moment and sells crazy amounts? Maybe but how would that even look like? Would it still be a story driven RPG? Not sure..
Before XVI released I actually thought XVI would be selling huge numbers. I at least was super hyped, got the CE and seemed like it had great momentum especially after the demo. I was overall a bit disappointed with the game later on but I felt the pre release hype was strong. I am kinda losing my point here but at this point I am simply not sure if there is a way for FF to ever sell as well as SE wants to with their current story driven nature and style.

I think it's important to recall just what the Final Fantasy series used to represent. For a period it was THE JRPG series that most others looked to as the blue print for how to try and sell your JRPG. FF used to be the trail blazer, not the one trying to react to what's popular, and that's I think the main issue. It lacks that confident swagger the series used to command because they stopped making it a trail blazer series and instead are trying to adapt it to current market perception, at a great cost it seems.

It might not be fair to expect them to raise the ceiling every time, but that is why they kept their sheen so long against everyone else.
 

BladeX

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,146
To me FFXVI not selling as anticipated is worse than FFVII Rebirth tbh.

I consider FFXVI a very fresh entry in the series and a game made with tons of love. Yes it has flaws (so does Rebirth), but the product oozed quality through and through.

And yes I loved the more mature theme, i found the story very well done, the spectacle was perhaps the best I have ever seen in the series and generally a damn fine game. Amazing technically as well with one of the smoothest 3 fps i have seen around.

All in all I am really bummed that it didnt sell well cause I found it an original FF title after god knows how long and one of the best FF games ever.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,452
Could there be a perfect storm FF that gives SE their BOTW moment and sells crazy amounts? Maybe but how would that even look like? Would it still be a story driven RPG? Not sure..

not sure it'd be "BOTW moment" but if they could develop an open world FF in a reasonable amount of time without a bunch of baggage (basically a bizzaro FFXV) it'd probably sell exceedingly well
 
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Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
634
Install base (beyond clear constraints) is only really relevant when the software you're talking about is some sort of evergreen massively popular title that each marginal consumer will purchase at some point along side their console. Stuff like GTAVI would be constrained by an install base if it launched in 2020, or Mario Kart 8 Deluxe saw growth with the growth of the install base of the switch. Said differently, how likely do you think it is that the 100 millionth person buying a PS5 would want to buy XVI, versus the 100 millionth switch owner wanting to buy Mario Kart. All the people who wanted to buy FFXVI probably are in the first 100mn PS5 owners, but the same can't be said for an eternal party game like MK.

If FF sells to the same sort of core-ish demographic group of fans, and just repeats that trick over and over, it doesn't matter that there are less PS5s on the market than there are PS4s. XV selling more than Remake on a much smaller install base (counting PS4), and then Remake selling similar numbers initially to XVI despite being on a larger install base suggests that, overall, there's just not much sensitivity of the franchise to install base by and large, that it has limited appeal and popularity, and that that popularity might be regressing over time.



Its up there with the sidequest where Clive discovers that people are doing bad things to the slaves, and so he takes power into his own hands to rectify the situation. Except he actually doesn't, he sort of just says some mean words and fucks off iirc, and its some other dude who goes and exacts extrajudicial justice and then you get the big QUEST COMPLETE notification.

And then there's fuckin Lubor. Jfc Lubor.

I think your installbase assesment is correct overall. However I think it is not that simple if we go from a game on PS4 + PC to the sequel only being available in PS5. It is not neccessarily that the installbase is smaller on PS5 but just that I think there are lots of PS4 users with Remake that didn't get a PS5. Of course if Remake game set the world on fire (I think it is a great game) people might went out to buy a PS5 for that alone but I think that is a big ask. In general I also feel like the JRPG base nowadays is much more spread over multiple platforms than they were 5 or 10 years ago.
 

Leancarp900

Member
Feb 13, 2023
586
Could there be a perfect storm FF that gives SE their BOTW moment and sells crazy amounts? Maybe but how would that even look like?

Maybe a Final Fantasy that leans more towards dialogue choices and customization in an open world setting?

Although that probably sounds like a game that would be trying to appeal a lot to the West, not so much Japan.
 

Dunfish

Member
Oct 29, 2017
939
I really enjoyed FFXVI and absolutely loved Rebirth so it is sad to see the performance has not been there. I really hope that there new development structure that they outlined previously can help to right the ship as I have really enjoyed SEs output over the last few years.

I think both games can have a nice tail with decent port quality but timing is of the essence.
 

Blade24070

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,045
Maybe a Final Fantasy that leans more towards dialogue choices and customization in an open world setting?

Although that probably sounds like a game that would be trying to appeal a lot to the West, not so much Japan.

They haven't been trying to appeal to Japan in at least a decade. And why would they? Software sales are dire
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,725
Spain
So, to make it a little offtopic (although not really), what was Square Enix's plan with Foamstar? "We're sure there are a lot of people who want to play Splatoon outside of Switch but they're all on PS5"?
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,708
not sure it'd be "BOTW moment" if they could develop an open world FF in a reasonable amount of time without a bunch of baggage (basically a bizzaro FFXV) it'd probably sell exceedingly well

Maybe an open world game where the first act or half is to go round the world to restore the 4 crystals. Players get to decide the order. Side quests and small towns in between.
 

Leancarp900

Member
Feb 13, 2023
586
So, to make it a little offtopic (although not really), what was Square Enix's plan with Foamstar? "We're sure there are a lot of people who want to play Splatoon outside of Switch but they're all on PS5"?

It's amusing they made a Splatoon clone for PS5, a console with inexplicably low software sales in Japan.

Splatoon is stupid popular in Japan ffs.
 

Lamine

Member
Nov 28, 2023
457
Maybe an open world game where the first act or half is to go round the world to restore the 4 crystals. Players get to decide the order. Side quests and small towns in between.
That's AAAA territory. I'm afraid its no longer possible to make a ff that big anymore. They had this chance with ffxv but fucked it all up
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,000
The long winding era that began with IGN's report of XVI's sales dampening quickly is finally reaching its closure. I appreciate that this one out of all their other games is the one that they can still sugarcoat with their nebulous "18 month plan" hopes, but it's hard to put in meaningful stake into that when we've never known the precise goals of those plans and when I have my doubts that a PC port will revitalize XVI as much as they hope it will. Final Fantasy has a long way to rebuild it feels like.

Also, I know Mochizuki is probably editorializing but commenting that Foamstars sales aren't "necessarily bad" feels both hard to believe and hilariously pensive.