Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
20,121
I can see a really big drop off after FF7 Rebirth, I have a feeling the next game really won't sell at all, even if its something like the greatest ever, its like fatigue sets in after a while.

Well, if Square makes Part 3 a day 1 PS5 exclusive again, then yeah, it's probably gonna drop further. But, given that their new strategy is to be on as many platforms as possible, and assuming there is no deal in place for Part 3 yet, it still isn't a lost cause entirely.
 

ChocoBuddy

Banned
Apr 9, 2024
254
BG3 sold because it went viral due to dating mechanics and bear sex and because it released near the peak of D&D's casual popularity and cultural relevance. JRPGs are simply not that appealing.

I genuinely do not think there is a way to make FF suddenly catapult itself into the same sales territory as BG3 or Witcher 3 without completely transforming the series into something it isn't, and if you have to completely transform a series to make it sell, what's the point of making the series at all?

It doesn't need to be bear sex per se, but the real common through point with bigger JRPG's/adventure games is that they become a cultural beacon you can't ignore.

BOTW, TOTK, Elden Ring, BG3. They don't all have bear sex, but are all cultural landmarks in the current industry due to a myriad of factors. Word of mouth(including social media), advertising pushes(including influencers and streamers) and emergent gameplay.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,560
Turns out when you limit your potential audience that it has negative consequences to the long term health of your IP.
Pretty much. As an Xbox owner who would have purchased those game, my heart is not exactly bleeding for them atm

(I understand the business decision behind it)
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,866
It doesn't need to be bear sex per se, but the real common through point with bigger JRPG's/adventure games is that they become a cultural beacon you can't ignore.

BOTW, TOTK, Elden Ring, BG3. They don't all have bear sex, but are all cultural landmarks in the current industry due to a myriad of factors. Word of mouth(including social media), advertising pushes(including influencers and streamers) and emergent gameplay.

Right. I think emergent gameplay is a HUGE boon for streamer word of mouth. By comparison I just don't think that JRPGs can really capture that because so much of their format is based around the linear progression of combat to walking to cutscene to combat to walking to cutscene.

And I'm gonna be real for a second - I don't think modern FF games have strong enough writing to make watching streams worthwhile. It's just not the kind of content that's fun to passively engage with. It's boring to watch other people play.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,117
CT
they dont have to catapult into that territory. no one is expecting the next FF to sell 20m+ copies. if FF simply continued being around XV territory I doubt we would be in this situation
Years of people saying "FF15 legging it out to 10 million copies sold was actually bad" really looks silly now when SE would kill for those kinda of sales/legs.
 

Jerm

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
5,850
It's hard to care and I'm not going to buy this stuff because you realized you couldn't survive being exclusive. I would have 100% bought this stuff if it were on Xbox but it's hard not to feel a bit resentful.
 

CabooseMSG

Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,238
I was wondering who Square was going to blame for the shitty business after they split off their bigger western studios. Turns out they're just going to blame the successful indie side now instead.

Maybe take a break from incinerating money developing Final Fantasy for a while?
 

zaxil456

Member
Aug 4, 2020
1,634
It's especially weird what's going on with FF because if anything it feels like most long running franchises are seeing series highs in recent years. Resident Evil, God of War, Spider-Man, From Software's games, Remedy's games, Persona, Yakuza, etc.

I know it's probably not easy gaining a new audience but FF/SE makes it look a lot harder in comparison to other companies.
 

Blade24070

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,049
It's especially weird what's going on with FF because if anything it feels like most long running franchises are seeing series highs in recent years. Resident Evil, God of War, Spider-Man, From Software's games, Remedy's games, Persona, Yakuza, etc.

Especially JRPGs. Tales, Persona, and Yakuza are selling record numbers for their respective franchises, while both of the latest FF entries are floundering compared to their immediate predecessors (XV and Remake).
 

Geg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,624
As much as I liked XVI, I'd definitely be fine with a return to turn-based stuff in the future. I have no idea if just doing that would help with sales though. The D&D/dice roll style of gameplay that people loved in BG3 isn't really my cup of tea but I'd probably be willing to try it with an FF skin.

Just please don't bring back the gambit system, I did not like XII's combat at all lol
 

Kenai

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,467
Welp, I was kind of hoping it wasn't as bad as expected but it's pretty hard to spin that. Thankfully a lot of shakeups are already happening at SE so we don't have to worry too much (for now)

Right. I think emergent gameplay is a HUGE boon for streamer word of mouth. By comparison I just don't think that JRPGs can really capture that because so much of their format is based around the linear progression of combat to walking to cutscene to combat to walking to cutscene.

And I'm gonna be real for a second - I don't think modern FF games have strong enough writing to make watching streams worthwhile. It's just not the kind of content that's fun to passively engage with. It's boring to watch other people play.

XIV's writing is some of the series best and that has been ongoing for years. ShB and EW especially have some of the most lauded stories in the FF franchise, but it started with HW. XIV is also a shining example of multiplatform availability being good for the series.

If there are more intricate problems that the series needs to solve going forward, it can be looked at after the obvious issues are taken care of. Namely platform exclusivity of some of their biggest titles, and sales expectations matching the time and/or budgets set.

Watching someone play through XIV for the first time is a treat and I recommend someone do it when they get the chance if they already frequent YT/Twitch. It still happens a lot
 
Last edited:

dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
8,032
Kinda wonder how they will do this after FF7 part 3. The casting is imo perfection, would be a shame if a FF7 in the future will be yet another reboot because it hasn't reached as many people to get familiar with this cast
 

Jerm

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
5,850
It's especially weird what's going on with FF because if anything it feels like most long running franchises are seeing series highs in recent years. Resident Evil, God of War, Spider-Man, From Software's games, Remedy's games, Persona, Yakuza, etc.

I know it's probably not easy gaining a new audience but FF/SE makes it look a lot harder in comparison to other companies.

It seems like it's because they've limited themselves to the one console that may have the potential for millions upon millions of sales but is on a system with a lot more casual players who are content with sports or shooters. I think these titles would have smoked on PC or any place that's more hobbyist than casual. The PS5 is just a catch all for so many people.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,535
Budgets and costs ballooned above the games potential reach and potential.... As surprising as that sounds for a mainline FF game and an absolutely massive second remake entry.

Not sure I could cover all the variables on why this is the case... Sounds like platform exclusivity deals can't cover the massive capital investment of the creation of these games.

Sad that investors are so short term minded though. These games will likely have legs if and when they get ported.

Then again the audience for FF games... If they are anything like me, are either losing interest in the franchise or sure as hell dont have the time to devote to these absolutely mega massive games in such a competitive environment.

Thats just me echoing my personal situation though lol
 

Jerm

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
5,850
For me personally, I'm not willing to spend so long to catch up on 16 games worth of story…
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,725
Tel Aviv
BG3 sold because it went viral due to dating mechanics and bear sex and because it released near the peak of D&D's casual popularity and cultural relevance. JRPGs are simply not that appealing.

I genuinely do not think there is a way to make FF suddenly catapult itself into the same sales territory as BG3 or Witcher 3 without completely transforming the series into something it isn't, and if you have to completely transform a series to make it sell, what's the point of making the series at all?
I loved the bear sex in Elden Ring, God of War Ragnarok, Horizon: FW, The wizard game, Star Wars Jedi Survivor, Zelda ToTK, Spider-Man 2 that made these mostly SP experience sell well.

I don't know if FF can have the cultural significance it once held, but it it doesn't, it won't be because it's a single player story focused game.

For me personally, I'm not willing to spend so long to catch up on 16 games worth of story…
FF games are standalone. But I do think the confusing numbering + spinoffs etc. are part of the reason new fans are reluctant to join in.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,306
if I would have guessed how these games did based on this forum and the podcasts I listen to, I would have assumed these games sold more than expected.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,836
It's especially weird what's going on with FF because if anything it feels like most long running franchises are seeing series highs in recent years. Resident Evil, God of War, Spider-Man, From Software's games, Remedy's games, Persona, Yakuza, etc.

I know it's probably not easy gaining a new audience but FF/SE makes it look a lot harder in comparison to other companies.

Not every publisher is hitting record sales. Also in the case of FF they were miles ahead of the competition in unit sales. So growth is much harder for them to achieve. It might reflect where the genre is at outside of Pokémon. Persona, Xenoblade and Yakuza have seen significant growth but they are nowhere close to the other franchises you listed.

Edit: It's also worth pointing out that SE took a lot more risk with smaller games and new IPs which unfortunately for them has not panned out.
 

GrantDaNasty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,107
It's getting harder to justify big-budget games that are platform exclusive. I imagine Nintendo will be fine, but when even 1st parties like Sony are seeing the shortfall, what chance does SE hope to have?

I will check out XVI and 7 Rebirth on PC, cause I just can't justify getting a PS5, and they're barely below MSRP where I live.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,117
CT
I loved the bear sex in Elden Ring, God of War Ragnarok, Horizon: FW, The wizard game, Star Wars Jedi Survivor, Zelda ToTK, Spider-Man 2 that made these mostly SP experience sell well.

I don't know if FF can have the cultural significance it once held, but it it doesn't, it won't be because it's a single player story focused game.


FF games are standalone. But I do think the confusing numbering + spinoffs etc. are part of the reason new fans are reluctant to join in.
Baldur's Gate 3 and Witcher 3 and Elder Scrolls 5 and Final Fantasy 15 say this is a nonsense argument and always has been.
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,629
It's getting harder to justify big-budget games that are platform exclusive. I imagine Nintendo will be fine, but when even 1st parties like Sony are seeing the shortfall, what chance does SE hope to have?
zero considering they already said they are a shifting to a multiplatform strategy
 

clay_ghost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,384
For me personally, I'm not willing to spend so long to catch up on 16 games worth of story…

Close , you many need to experience 13 FF7 games/movies across multiple platforms.Some of them are no longer available. 15 If you include FFX and FFX2. :p
  1. Final Fantasy VII
  2. Before Crisis
  3. Snowboarding
  4. Advent Children
  5. Dirge of Cerberus
  6. Dirge of Cerberus Lost Episode
  7. Last Order
  8. Crisis Core
  9. FF mobius FF7 Events (This is actually canon from my understanding 😆)
  10. G-Bike
  11. Remake
  12. The First Soldier
  13. Ever Crisis

Edit. It will Actually be more than 16 if we include those canon novels.....
 
Last edited:

dreamlongdead

Member
Nov 5, 2017
2,665
As a Final Fantasy fan, there is no need to be concerned.

Square Enix had some really crazy sales expectations for these games, and it's not doom just because they weren't met.

This can be addressed by going multiplatform day one with PC and the other consoles, which has been done in the past. The upcoming PC releases for XVI and Rebirth will give a big boost to revenue.
 

fzburner

Member
Jul 3, 2023
976
FF games are standalone. But I do think the confusing numbering + spinoffs etc. are part of the reason new fans are reluctant to join in.
I'd say it's more the actual Final Fantasy that had an audience with people who weren't already nostalgic for the franchise, FF15, was completely abandoned. If you liked 15 where were you supposed to go next, the following games didn't build off of it or even have a connection to it. I get the historical significance of FF games all being different 20-30 years ago, but now that every other game has surpassed it graphically what selling point does FF actually have with audiences who only got to experience 13 and 15
 

Kingsora

Member
May 19, 2018
1,077
When they say 'sales targets aren't reached' does that mean the games are losing money or are they just not having huge profits as hoped?

----
I do wonder how Square is going to turn this around, because it's not like they are making bad games. Foamstars sucked, but all of the other games where just great. So why are they not selling? Is it bad marketing, is the JPRG genre just death, are the games too soft and not violent enough to reach a big audience, are just too many gamers nowadays focussed on online stuff, ...

What I do can believe, is that the world of FF16 looks less interesting in marketing as the FFXV world or even go back further to FF XIII and FFX. Not everyone is a big fan of the 'middle ages' themed games.
 

Lengualo

Member
May 14, 2022
462
UK/Mexico
Honkai Star Rail/Genshin are massively popular so this entire fantasy of young people don't play JRPGs and adjacent is false not even touching upon RPGs in general. RPGs are a mainstream genre at this point.

Its not a fantasy though, the general trend is that they don't. If you look at zoomers, they grew up engrossed in games that take on a more sandboxy nature.

While I've tried to get my kids interested in story driven RPGs, even when they think they look cool and enjoy them for a few hours, they soon get frustrated with them because its almost baked into them that games are sandbox experiences and they cant do what they want to do.

This disinterest in these types of RPGs also translates to most of their friends too.

It makes sense though, they grew up with Minecraft, Roblox, Fortnite and the likes. When you throw a long, restrictive, story driven RPG at them it doesnt match what they got into the hobby for.
 
Dec 19, 2022
270
Well, if Square makes Part 3 a day 1 PS5 exclusive again, then yeah, it's probably gonna drop further. But, given that their new strategy is to be on as many platforms as possible, and assuming there is no deal in place for Part 3 yet, it still isn't a lost cause entirely.
I assume that contracts with Sony have already been signed regarding that, and now they can't just step down from them.
That might be the reason why their CEO explicitly mentioned that it may take years until their new multiplat plan shows results.
 
OP
OP
Clippy

Clippy

Member
Feb 11, 2022
2,252
When they say 'sales targets aren't reached' does that mean the games are losing money or are they just not having huge profits as hoped?
We can't say for sure which games are losing money, but we do know HD as a whole is in the red so without a doubt that at least some of them are outright losing money and the rest of the slate isn't doing well enough to make up for the shortfalls. Possible they'd turn a profit in the long term, but it's safe to say at the moment that some of them are not profitable games.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
20,121
I assume that contracts with Sony have already been signed regarding that, and now they can't just step down from them.
That might be the reason why their CEO explicitly mentioned that it may take years until their new multiplat plan shows results.

I'm not so sure. FF7 Remake had exclusivity extended with the integrade release, so that clearly wasn't planned. Also, I doubt they'd have negotiated a 3 month exclusivity window for Rebirth years in advance.

I think that comment is referring more to the fact that it takes a while to build a consistent, loyal auidence on other platforms. Square's treatment of xbox and PC hasnt exactly been stellar.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
17,153
Right. I think emergent gameplay is a HUGE boon for streamer word of mouth. By comparison I just don't think that JRPGs can really capture that because so much of their format is based around the linear progression of combat to walking to cutscene to combat to walking to cutscene.

And I'm gonna be real for a second - I don't think modern FF games have strong enough writing to make watching streams worthwhile. It's just not the kind of content that's fun to passively engage with. It's boring to watch other people play.
SaGa has been doing non-linear player expression since the 90s and shows that you can make a JRPG that as far as events go is player driven.
Of course Kawazu is now relegated to having the smallest budgets ever these days but a modern FF game with strong writing and emergent gameplay should definitely be possible.
Especially since tech is no longer so constraining.
 

Son of Sparda

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,813
BG3 sold because it went viral due to dating mechanics and bear sex and because it released near the peak of D&D's casual popularity and cultural relevance.
While there is no denying that those things helped BG3 a lot, let's not forget that Divinity Original Sin 2 also sold a lot of copies (around 8 million copies last we heard) and that wasn't proper D&D nor did it have a viral bear sex moment.

I don't think single player RPGs, in this case JRPGs, are cursed to have a low sales ceiling or anything like that. I know a lot of people will disagree but I honestly see BotW/TotK as pretty JRPG adjacent titles (especially TotK which even gives you a party in combat) and those games blew up. I honestly think if we got a successor to XV in terms of overall core design/structure without all the development woes and cut content and SE had released that in a timely manner (3-4 years after XV) and went multiplatform, the series would've been in a way better place right now.

FF seeing a decline and failing to grow is not indicative of JRPGs not having room to grow or reach mainstream popularity. The failures of FF in terms of growth has a lot more to do with how SE has been handling the franchise than it being a JRPG imo.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,718
SaGa has been doing non-linear player expression since the 90s and shows that you can make a JRPG that as far as events go is player driven.
Of course Kawazu is now relegated to having the smallest budgets ever these days but a modern FF game with strong writing and emergent gameplay should definitely be possible.
Especially since tech is no longer so constraining.
I am completely unfamiliar with the Saga franchise. Which games would you recommend for a newcomer like me?
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
17,153
While there is no denying that those things helped BG3 a lot, let's not forget that Divinity Original Sin 2 also sold a lot of copies (around 8 million copies last we heard) and that wasn't proper D&D nor did it have a viral bear sex moment.

I don't think JRPGs are cursed to have a low sales ceiling or anything like that. I know a lot of people will disagree but I honestly see BotW/TotK as pretty JRPG adjacent titles (especially TotK which even gives you a party in combat) and those games blew up. I honestly think if we got a successor to XV in terms of overall core design/structure without all the development woes and cut content and SE had released that in a timely manner (3-4 years after XV) and went multiplatform, the series would've been in a way better place right now.

FF seeing a decline and failing to grow is not an indicative of JRPGs not having room to grow or reach mainstream popularity. The failures of FF in terms of growth has a lot more to do with how SE has been handling the franchise than it being a JRPG imo.
Considering how much of a "mess" XV was and how much it sold, it's actually kinda baffling that they didn't just refine that to make a finished product now that they had a base to work from.
Of course hindsight and all that, but it's clear that the open nature of XV is more conducive of exploding in the marketplace than something like XVI.....especially since XV is not outright hostile to the Japanese home market like XVI is.

I am completely unfamiliar with the Saga franchise. Which games would you recommend for a newcomer like me?
the friendliest would be either SaGa : Scarlet Grace or the shiny new SaGa Emerald Beyond.
For my money, Romancing SaGa Minstrel Song (now remastered everywhere) is pretty much the quintessential SaGa experience (because the last 2 I mentioned earlier are really experimental while RS : MS is more of a medley of everything SaGa)

Also be warned that the designers behind SaGa like obtuse systems and used to not care that the player was onboard or not.
Culmination being the reviled Unlimited SaGa that put the post game hardest dungeon as nearly the 1st sidequest you can take.
People bounced HARD on that one.
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,629
I"d love to know the targets for FF7 Rebirth. Hands down top 3 games I've ever played and deserves much much more support.
considering 3m was a target for XVI, which is nothing out of the extraordinary, probably something...really normal, as much as people say SE is incapable of doing lmfao

Considering how much of a "mess" XV was and how much it sold, it's actually kinda baffling that they didn't just refine that to make a finished product now that they had a base to work from.
Of course hindsight and all that, but it's clear that the open nature of XV is more conducive of exploding in the marketplace than something like XVI.....especially since XV is not outright hostile to the Japanese home market like XVI is.
XV did represent a sharp decline in japanese sales compared to previous titles though. of course, context varies since it was a PS4 title and whatnot, but what XV did well was just selling...better overall, specially internationally.

as you said, it was just...more appealing than anything FF has put out in the last decade or two to general audiences
 

Raigor

Member
May 14, 2020
15,256
BG3 sold because it went viral due to dating mechanics and bear sex and because it released near the peak of D&D's casual popularity and cultural relevance. JRPGs are simply not that appealing.

I genuinely do not think there is a way to make FF suddenly catapult itself into the same sales territory as BG3 or Witcher 3 without completely transforming the series into something it isn't, and if you have to completely transform a series to make it sell, what's the point of making the series at all?

BG3 and TW3 were huge success because Larian and CDPR made memorable games with compelling characters and excellent writing and both these games have resonated with people from the East to the West of the world, reducing everything to sex and dating is incredibly reductive.

Mass Effect also had sex and dating and the trilogy didn't reach BG3 or TW3 heights.
 

TheCed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,437
Is there a solid source for this you can link me to for this info?

This is very hard to believe considering the previous patterns but if i'm wrong then I appreciate the correction.


Cheers, that actually does help. If the gameplays good and the story isn't Remakes finale the whole way then i might still enjoy the ride.

I'll keep that in mind for a sale at least. :)

Here's one, there has been a few interviews where it was stated that Nomura wanted to keep things as faithful as possible. Kitase is often the one stating that he was kept in check by Nomura.
 

ChocoBuddy

Banned
Apr 9, 2024
254
I know a lot of people will disagree but I honestly see BotW/TotK as pretty JRPG adjacent titles (especially TotK which even gives you a party in combat) and those games blew up. I honestly think if we got a successor to XV in terms of overall core design/structure without all the development woes and cut content and SE had released that in a timely manner (3-4 years after XV) and went multiplatform, the series would've been in a way better place right now.

People get weird about this. I think they are ARPGs/JRPGs too, hence why Genshin and Elden Ring taking those concepts and leaning more into the RPG aspects felt so natural.

But I agree. This is also why I was actually expecting Rebirth to head into a similar direction.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,866
BG3 and TW3 were huge success because Larian and CDPR made memorable games with compelling characters and excellent writing and both these games have resonated with people from the East to the West of the world, reducing everything to sex and dating is incredibly reductive.

Mass Effect also had sex and dating and the trilogy didn't reach BG3 or TW3 heights.

The Witcher 3 is a once-in-a-generation masterpiece that will not be replicated any time soon, even by its own developers. So was Baldur's Gate 3.

But what drove them was the fact that both games went insanely viral, and that's something Square is not good at. They are not good at developing experiences that break out of their fandoms and into the mainstream. It's that virality that allowed them to grow their sales massively - you can't just sell a game to fans and then expect 10 million units sold. You NEED that cross-generational, cross-demographic viral appeal.

This is something FFXV had, and both XVI and the VII Remakes don't - a pitch for people who don't play Final Fantasy.