[Bloomberg] Sales of FFXVI, VII Rebirth, and Foamstars failed to meet expectations

[SilverArrow20XX]

Rebirth honestly felt like the modern adaptation of the classic feel of the series.
Not FFI, but IV-IX.
Really captured the character moments, and the locations, and the open world areas gave the impression of moving across the world map, with the same "abbreviated" impression the old maps had.
It's too bad the Remake trilogy has so much baggage.

The series really needs a healthy amount spinoffs too.
It was doing great in the 90s and 00s with Tactics, Chocobo games, Crystal Chronicles, and so on.
They pretty much stopped after 2011 though.
Not counting mobile gacha stuff, there's only been a handful of new spinoffs since then.
The Chocobo Series in particular, as the mascot series, should definitely be getting regular entries.

 

[Spehornoob]

Sometimes I think BOTW's "going back to its roots" element is a bit overstated. Like, I get it, and they've spoken about the Zelda 1 inspiration. But I feel It's more like "we looked at the roots and found an element to focus on that we hadn't in a while and built the entire game around that idea".

Like, if you had heard that the Zelda series was going "back to its roots" before BOTW, would you have assumed it would be a completely non-linear freeform open world dotted with mini dungeons but only has four major dungeons, gives you all your abilities at the start, and puts major emphasis on physics and world interactivity, and contains light survival elements? I doubt that. But when it all comes together, you can see where the ideas sprang from being inspired by Zelda 1. It's a thoroughly modern game though, not a retro throwback.

So, an equivalent FF game wouldn't necessarily be an old school JRPG with a world map and turn-based combat.

Rebirth honestly felt like the modern adaptation of the classic feel of the series.
Not FFI, but IV-IX..

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As a big fan of that era, I didn't feel that at all while playing Rebirth. I enjoy it a lot, but those games are filled with mystery in their worlds, Rebirth's has none.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying we see it differently. And that's the problem Square has to reckon with. What everyone see as "Final Fantasy" is different now.

 

[oty]

it will be interesting to see which "staples", if SE even thinks of them like that anyways, will continue forward for FF. in my mind, SE surely has already realised that the franchise desperately needs a new, hopefully younger audience and they are actively taking steps towards that, now more than ever with Kiryu in charge

XVI believed that a big story and everything it could carry was the big focus of FF, atleast the one they liked to make at that time, but it's interesting to see if that will continue to be the case, in the same way that previous FFs handled it of course

 

[hussien-11]

Fantasy: "Sales aren't bad"

This is a nothing burger statement, it doesn't mean anything. 3.5 million aren't "bad" for most titles but most titles don't have the dev cost of Final Fantasy games.

Reality: Sales of SE stock fell heavily that day to the trading limit since that's how it operates in Japan. Analysts call into question future of SE over concern of an empty slate in the next few years since they blew their load in the last FY. CEO causes an entire organizational restructuring and very loudly and clearly ends the symbiotic Playstation exclusivity relationship they have to announce they will release future big titles on Nintendo Switch and PC. A former Square Enix executive that directly reported to the previous two Square Enix CEOs makes a tweet thread explaining why things are bad from both a cost and brand perspective. Retweets Jeff Grub saying FF sales are on a declining trend and to stop saying the game sales are fine its the expectations that are too high.


View: https://x.com/JeffGrubb/status/1793796802874913108

Like I'm not sure what it would take for you and some other people here to accept the reality that FF is in bad shape when you're not going to accept all the surrounding facts and even statements from the new CEO. Literally the definition of the meme where the dog is surrounded by a house on fire and saying "This is fine."

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This is the truth, always felt strange how defensive people were about sales performance of these games, its OK to like something, its not OK to pretend its doing better than it actually is.

I feel very pessimistic about FF these days, in a way I've never felt before. In the past always felt it is popular enough and they will recover with the next game. Right now things aren't like that, the series is in decline, in Japan it has collapsed, and to me it feels like it is in real trouble. The series has been mismanaged for a very long time.

 

[DamageEX2]

I can't believe I even have to explain this, but the earliest FF games did not actually have minigames. Minigames only really began with VII. Minigames are absolutely not part of the core identity of the series when something like 5 or 6/16 mainline games had them (VII, VIII, IX, X, and XIV. Not sure if XI had any, I don't recall ever seeing any in I-VI, I'm drawing a total blank for XII even though I put like 100 hours into that game, and I don't remember hearing anything about XIII and XV having any either). The majority of them are bunched up in the middle part of the series. Unless you're one of those people who believe the series only really began at VII, but I doubt you're among that group.

Honestly, it was probably a mistake for Rebirth to heavily market the minigames. JRPG fans may eat that up because it's indirect nostalgia bait, but I imagine that sort of thing actively repulses the mainstream as much as word of mouth about bad sidequests do. We are several months out from release, and I see discourse about the minigames and divisive story has drowned out everything else about Rebirth. People generally really love one very well thought out minigame (like Triple Triad and Gwent from the Witcher series), but not like a whole slew of different minigames throughout the entire game (people don't look fondly on any of IX and X's minigames outside of making PTSD memes about doing them purely for the sake of 100% completion, and it sounds like Rebirth's minigames are ultimately going to age the same way.)

The actual world of mouth of Rebirth among mainstream gaming communities has not been kind at all. The word of mouth I see among casual gaming communities and even among the FF fanbase itself whenever someone brings up the minigames does not actually match its high review scores, and that's why I don't think this mythical GOTY bump that some people in this thread are banking on is going to happen either. (Assuming it even wins GOTY to begin with, I already see much of the gaming community getting ready to bend over backwards to justify giving it to the Elden Ring DLC, or Dragon Age 4 if it releases this year and turns out to be actually good.)

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As for bringing the series back to its roots... I don't think it's actually as complicated as people are making it out to be. Put an emphasis on a party again and focus on exploration as a big part of the experience, instead of hyper focusing on the narrative and graphical fidelity so much that it results in development decisions that ultimately come at a major cost to the feeling that you are actually going out to travel the world. Going beyond that as far as trying to find the series' roots is just convoluted window dressing.

People want to actually play the game and see new things as they go along, not get distracted by ultimately unrelated shit.

By all accounts XIII (corridor discourse), XV (people keep telling me that the world is big but ultimately empty), and XVI (ditto) failed at that for various reasons. XIV nailed it somewhat but it's an MMO that's being constantly updated so I'd be worried if it didn't nail that. Remake confined everyone to a city, and Rebirth supposedly nailed it but it got buried behind minigame talk instead.

In addition to that, the mainstream impression I see of the recent FF games is that they are so far up their own asses in regards to the narrative that people aren't willing to take a risk on seeing if the actual gameplay is any good. The mainstream has been putting an emphasis on finding games with an enjoyable gameplay loop, and quite frankly the word of mouth of that in regards to the FF series as a whole is generally bad on that front, and the recent games have done nothing to change that perception.

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Word of mouth with people that played its great, its hard to find any criticism with both the fanbase and people new to the game.

A DLC like Shadow of the Erdtree winning would be laughble and most people are not expecting Dreadwolf to be a great game, even less a GOTY, so i dont know where you heard this kind of thing, im not seeing this on this forum at all.

Rebirth can win GOTY, and this a big merit for the quality of the game, because with was really well received with critics and with everyone that played, some people saying that didnt like that many minigames doesnt make a game divisive

 

[Hero]

I can't believe I even have to explain this, but the earliest FF games did not actually have minigames. Minigames only really began with VII. Minigames are absolutely not part of the core identity of the series when something like 5 or 6/16 mainline games had them (VII, VIII, IX, X, and XIV. Not sure if XI had any, I don't recall ever seeing any in I-VI, I'm drawing a total blank for XII even though I put like 100 hours into that game, and I don't remember hearing anything about XIII and XV having any either). The majority of them are bunched up in the middle part of the series. Unless you're one of those people who believe the series only really began at VII, but I doubt you're among that group.

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I can't believe I have to explain that I wasn't talking about the early FF games because they're pretty weak games but that doesn't take away from the fact that during the formative, golden years of JRPGs mini-games were a staple. VII had mini-games which were much beloved, VIII has Triple Triad which is a staple in XIV now, X's blitzball was even part of the narrative, so on and so forth.

 

[Spehornoob]

it will be interesting to see which "staples", if SE even thinks of them like that anyways, will continue forward for FF. in my mind, SE surely has already realised that the franchise desperately needs a new, hopefully younger audience and they are actively taking steps towards that, now more than ever with Kiryu in charge

XVI believed that a big story and everything it could carry was the big focus of FF, atleast the one they liked to make at that time, but it's interesting to see if that will continue to be the case, in the same way that previous FFs handled it of course

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I think there are things within the XVI template that could be breakout-tier if iterated on, but they really need to consider their game structure and ambition. For every cool thing they tried, they either didn't go far enough or shot themselves in the foot in another way.

It had extremely flashy freeform combat in which you could tailor your character to how you wanted to play... but gave you only one character with a very lean base moveset and made it really easy because they were afraid of scaring off older fans.

It had a world with tons of lore thought put into it... and had essentially no ways to interact with it or and reason to explore it outside of scripted quests.

It had (relative to the rest of the series) well written characters with interesting stories and potential inner conflicts... and squandered a lot of them to put the focus squarely on Clive (who I love!, but still).

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

As a big fan of that era, I didn't feel that at all while playing Rebirth. I enjoy it a lot, but those games are filled with mystery in their worlds, Rebirth's has none.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying we see it differently. And that's the problem Square has to reckon with. What everyone see as "Final Fantasy" is different now.

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I feel a lot of the lack of mystery falls on the fact that it's a remake, so we just already know about it.
The structure though, I think is there, and a new game using it could easily include more discovery.

 

[oty]

I think there are things within the XVI template that could be breakout-tier if iterated on, but they really need to consider their game structure and ambition. For every cool thing they tried, they shot themselves in the foot in another way.

It had extremely flashy freeform combat in which you could tailor your character to how you wanted to play... but gave you only one character with a very lean base moveset and made it really easy because they were afraid of scaring off older fans.

It had a world with tons of lore thought put into it... and had essentially no ways to interact with it or and reason to explore it outside of scripted quests.

It had (relative to the rest of the series) well written characters with interesting stories and potential inner conflicts... and squandered a lot of them to put the focus squarely on Clive (who I love!, but still).

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yeah, I think that the future of FF needs to be more interactive and dynamic. that seems to generally be the way forward for high profile games the last few years. as Matt said it himself, Gen Z is just the start of a generation who's finally becoming the main consumer of games and they definitely do not care about "graphics" and presentation the way previous generations cared

it's funny how the conversation kinda goes around things like "mini-games" or whatever when pretty much any style of game they make they can either insert or not insert a couple minigames here and there lol

 

[Mocha Joe]

i wonder if this week we will get an official announcement of VII Rebirth's pc port since thats when the exclusivity deal is going to end.

 

[hopeblimey]

I can't believe I even have to explain this, but the earliest FF games did not actually have minigames. Minigames only really began with VII. Minigames are absolutely not part of the core identity of the series when something like 5 or 6/16 mainline games had them (VII, VIII, IX, X, and XIV. Not sure if XI had any, I don't recall ever seeing any in I-VI, I'm drawing a total blank for XII even though I put like 100 hours into that game, and I don't remember hearing anything about XIII and XV having any either). The majority of them are bunched up in the middle part of the series. Unless you're one of those people who believe the series only really began at VII, but I doubt you're among that group.

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The very firsd Final Fantasy on the NES had a tile puzzle mini-game. You could count some events like the auction in FFVI as a mini-game as well.

 

[Spehornoob]

I feel a lot of the lack of mystery falls on the fact that it's a remake, so we just already know about it.
The structure though, I think is there, and a new game using it could easily include more discovery.

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This isn't really the case for the open world though. This modern open world design is completely new to Final Fantasy VII, and instead of populating that world with interesting mysteries, they tell us where everything and don't even give you direct rewards related to the world or the content you just did, but rather give you currency to spend so you can get the exact reward you want.

But that's beside my point. My point is that you think it's a good adaptation of the old formula, while I don't. We, presumably both fans of the series, both have a different perspective on what we want to see out of it, and Square will need to reckon with a fanbase with very different wants and expectations among them, dig what I mean? And because they refuse to stick to a gameplay identity, they keep fracturing that base further.

yeah, I think that the future of FF needs to be more interactive and dynamic. that seems to generally be the way forward for high profile games the last few years. as Matt said it himself, Gen Z is just the start of a generation who's finally becoming the main consumer of games and they definitely do not care about "graphics" and presentation the way previous generations cared

it's funny how the conversation kinda goes around things like "mini-games" or whatever when pretty much any style of game they make they can either insert or not insert a couple minigames here and there lol

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Yup. Elden Ring, BOTW, Baldur's Gate 3, they all trust the player to experiment and learn and think about their interactions with the world naturally.. Neither VIIR nor XVI have any trust in the players to do that.

 

[hopeblimey]

Going back to the roots of Final Fantasy doesn't have to mean FF1 and nothing else. With a series this old you can reasonably take inspiration from multiple decades-old games with no serious objections. There's no need for SE to be dogmatic about what "roots" means, if that is what they choose to do with an upcoming game.

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Good point, and honestly, I think what people are referring to as 'roots' are actually like Final Fantasy IV-X which honestly is the time period Square-Enix should be trying to return to.

 

[hopeblimey]

Rebirth honestly felt like the modern adaptation of the classic feel of the series.
Not FFI, but IV-IX.
Really captured the character moments, and the locations, and the open world areas gave the impression of moving across the world map, with the same "abbreviated" impression the old maps had.
It's too bad the Remake trilogy has so much baggage.

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It's fine that you felt it was a modern adaptation based on story elements, but I think what everyone is most concerned about is gameplay and you skimmed over that very vaguely. I don't think vague vibes are what everyone is wanting when they mention a return to the roots.

 

[Rutger]

Good point, and honestly, I think what people are referring to as 'roots' are actually like Final Fantasy IV-X which honestly is the time period Square-Enix should be trying to return to.

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It never really left that time period for long.
Like IX, XI, XII, XIV, and XVI. Singleplayer has largely been the Kitase/Nomura vibes(XV is weird in that it both is and isn't). And they're in the middle of a long trilogy dedicated to the biggest game of that bunch.

 

[Hero]

This is the truth, always felt strange how defensive people were about sales performance of these games, its OK to like something, its not OK to pretend its doing better than it actually is.

I feel very pessimistic about FF these days, in a way I've never felt before. In the past always felt it is popular enough and they will recover with the next game. Right now things aren't like that, the series is in decline, in Japan it has collapsed, and to me it feels like it is in real trouble. The series has been mismanaged for a very long time.

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Entirely agree. I love Final Fantasy overall despite the humps and hurdles over the year but have grown increasingly frustrated with how badly Square Enix leadership has mismanaged the series and squandered lots of potential for growth.

 

[Roytheone]

i wonder if this week we will get an official announcement of VII Rebirth's pc port since thats when the exclusivity deal is going to end.

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I think they will wait until XVI is out on pc for that.

 

[hopeblimey]

It never really left that time period for long.
Like IX, XI, XII, XIV, and XVI. Singleplayer has largely been the Kitase/Nomura vibes(XV is weird in that it both is and isn't). And they're in the middle of a long trilogy dedicated to the biggest game of that bunch.

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By vibe I assume you're talking about art style? Gameplay has felt very different with each mainline game since X.

Even 2 and 8 with their pimples and unwelcome changes to the formula are still recognizable as FF from a gameplay perspective. XI-XVI are all very different beasts from each other and none feel like each other gameplay wise.

 

[BBboy20]

You can't expect something to become a phenomena like the Breath of the Wild formula has become. Just can only hope people like it enough buy enough copies to make another game.

 

[Saito Hikari]

Word of mouth with people that played its great, its hard to find any criticism with both the fanbase and people new to the game.

A DLC like Shadow of the Erdtree winning would be laughble and most people are not expecting Dreadwolf to be a great game, even less a GOTY, so i dont know where you heard this kind of thing, im not seeing this on this forum at all.

Rebirth can win GOTY, and this a big merit for the quality of the game, because with was really well received with critics and with everyone that played, some people saying that didnt like that many minigames doesnt make a game divisive

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I don't actually care about what pre-release perception looks like, I speak of how the gaming industry will realistically react if the games actually stick their landing. Starfield was hyped up for the longest time and it ultimately turned out to be a wet fart in the wind reception-wise, meanwhile BG3 was completely under the radar until about 1 month before release, and I say that as someone that followed that game from the very beginning of early access.

Let's say DA4 against all odds sticks its landing, what do you think the gaming industry will side with, a long awaited western RPG sequel with a narrative of it restoring people's faith in the company behind it, or a middle part of a JRPG remake trilogy that just happens to do what it does extremely well? If you want to argue that people giving Elden Ring DLC any GOTY nods is a laughable idea, be prepared for people to do the exact same thing to Rebirth as a remake later this year, no matter how much people try to argue that it isn't actually a remake.

i wonder if this week we will get an official announcement of VII Rebirth's pc port since thats when the exclusivity deal is going to end.

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All signs point to Rebirth PC port not coming out this year. There is ZERO chatter about it from SE themselves, meanwhile CS3 has repeatedly talked about the upcoming PC port for XVI instead. I don't see Rebirth PC port happening before the division that actually has greater experience developing games for the PC gets theirs out first.

Sometimes I think BOTW's "going back to its roots" element is a bit overstated. Like, I get it, and they've spoken about the Zelda 1 inspiration. But I feel It's more like "we looked at the roots and found an element to focus on that we hadn't in a while and built the entire game around that idea".

Like, if you had heard that the Zelda series was going "back to its roots" before BOTW, would you have assumed it would be a completely non-linear freeform open world dotted with mini dungeons but only has four major dungeons, gives you all your abilities at the start, and puts major emphasis on physics and world interactivity, and contains light survival elements? I doubt that. But when it all comes together, you can see where the ideas sprang from being inspired by Zelda 1. It's a thoroughly modern game though, not a retro throwback.

So, an equivalent FF game wouldn't necessarily be an old school JRPG with a world map and turn-based combat.

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Absolutely. Trying to steer FF towards going back to its roots by essentially having a checklist of things that the most successful FF games did, along with a checklist of whatever is appealing to the mainstream now, is very misguided. Rebirth clearly had too much of the former, by virtue of being a second part of a remake trilogy with a lot of multimedia stuff around it that basically makes it impenetrable to the mainstream no matter how much the fans try to deny it. XVI had too much of the latter with all of the emphasis on DMC style combat and Game of Thrones plot in the marketing.

Looking back on the marketing for both games, I cannot say that either game had any actual confidence in actually being FF games that were meant to modernize the series and transition it into today's gaming industry. Rebirth was banking on the perceived strength of the FF7 brand with a delusional idea that newcomers would be receptive to that, and XVI absolutely did try to distance itself from the rest of the series in some of its gameplay design decisions while hoping that the story direction would be enough to cover for it.

All I want to see from SE as far as trying to reinvigorate the brand goes is to focus on a party and put a greater emphasis on the exploration as part of the gameplay loop, instead of treating exploration as something you do to progress from point A to point B. An emphasis on airship travel in particular (to the level where you'd have to balance building/customizing your airship to access new areas, alongside your party's equipment and character builds) is something that most other games haven't dabbled with, and would give a theoretical game focusing on it a very distinct identity.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

This isn't really the case for the open world though. This modern open world design is completely new to Final Fantasy VII, and instead of populating that world with interesting mysteries, they tell us where everything and don't even give you direct rewards related to the world or the content you just did, but rather give you currency to spend so you can get the exact reward you want.

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The old games were mostly linear paths through a segment of the overworld to get to the next town or dungeon, with an occasional side cave along the way. I'm not really sure what you even mean here.

It's fine that you felt it was a modern adaptation based on story elements, but I think what everyone is most concerned about is gameplay and you skimmed over that very vaguely. I don't think vague vibes are what everyone is wanting when they mention a return to the roots.

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I'm talking more structure, world progression, and party interaction too.
Obviously it's not a turn based game with random battles. It never will be again.
But Rebirth's gameplay has a lot of that DNA in it still with the ability and time stop system.

The comparison is BotW, which is also basically nothing like old Zelda while also harkening back to it.

 

[oty]

You can't expect something to become a phenomena like the Breath of the Wild formula has become. Just can only hope people like it enough buy enough copies to make another game.

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that is true, but Nintendo didnt know that BotW was going to sell a gazillion copies. they just realised Zelda had become stale and their audience was stagnating, and then properly reevaluated their franchise and set up a new path for a generation of new Zeldas that are going to be released. obviously, Nintendo has the finest developers in the entire industry and that resulted in one of the most critically acclaimed and influential games of all time

the point is, not only does SE have extremely talented developers, it's pretty clear that FF as a whole needs to set up a path for the next FFs, one that attracts a new audience that can offset the shrinking audience they currently possess

 

[GreenMamba]

Actually, XV felt like a modern FF1 in a lot of ways when I first turned it on lol. Just 4 guys sent by the king on a quest. I hated the rest of the game but I did really like that initial set up.

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I think you're sorta right on this. I kinda thought it would have been a good template to base an actual FFI remake on.

When I think of what a "back to the roots" direction the series should go in I think of that simple set up. "The party of adventurers is on a quest" and it's your job as the player to unravel the quest. The main characters don't give you big quest markers to follow, it's up to you to actually talk to NPCs and make note of what they're saying to figure out where to go next. Considerably less emphasis on ongoing plot and big flashy cutscenes and more about player agency in moving the quest along. The entire world is a mystery and you are there to unravel it.

The parts of FFXV where you can dick around and accidentally stumble upon an entire hidden dungeon is basically the closest to that feeling any FF has come in recent years.

 

[fourfourfun]

FF is a bit messy since XIII isn't it? It's an identity crisis. It seems like it wants to be all things, can't pick one, tries them all and a lot of them a complete opposites of each other.

 

[fourfourfun]

Considerably less emphasis on ongoing plot and more about player agency in moving the quest along.

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That would have repaired XV significantly. Having a big "do what you want world" doesn't work when you've got a narrative tugging at you repeatedly.

 

[Mung]

Ffvii rebirth deserves to sell.

One of the greatest games of all time IMO.

 

[jungius]

FF is a bit messy since XIII isn't it? It's an identity crisis. It seems like it wants to be all things, can't pick one, tries them all and a lot of them a complete opposites of each other.

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XIII is a solid ff tho, even if its a hallway simulator it still has FF identity all over it. It gotten very radical with 15 and 16, where I felt it lose the identity.

 

[Rutger]

By vibe I assume you're talking about art style? Gameplay has felt very different with each mainline game since X.

Even 2 and 8 with their pimples and unwelcome changes to the formula are still recognizable as FF from a gameplay perspective. XI-XVI are all very different beasts from each other and none feel like each other gameplay wise.

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Artstyle is part of it, but also general story and presentation.

Gameplay has changed more but I don't think it's a big deal, so long as the series stays an ARPG I don't think the various system changes will matter that much to a wider audience. FFXV's success alone tells me the FF fanbase worries too much about, and underestimates, the wider audience's ability to accept these kinds of changes.

 

[hopeblimey]

The old games were mostly linear paths through a segment of the overworld to get to the next town or dungeon, with an occasional side cave along the way. I'm not really sure what you even mean here.



I'm talking more structure, world progression, and party interaction too.
Obviously it's not a turn based game with random battles. It never will be again.
But Rebirth's gameplay has a lot of that DNA in it still with the ability and time stop system.

The comparison is BotW, which is also basically nothing like old Zelda while also harkening back to it.

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See that's the point. It's basically unrecognizable as a FF game from its gameplay. Having references to the system of yore isn't enough, and instead of refining Square-Enix is focused on re-inventing with each new iteration.

I'm not saying they should go back to strictly turn based per se (though I would much prefer it) but focus on a battle system and continue refining it. In my opinion the battle mechanics in XII, XIII, and XV (I'm guessing XVI as well) are ultra sloppy because of lack of refinement. They don't need to continuously try re-inventing and starting from scratch with each new game.

On the subject of the FFVII remake in particular it's not a stretch to say that fans of the original game (obviously one of the targeted audiences) wanted something at least recognizable to the source material.

 

[hopeblimey]

XIII is a solid ff tho, even if its a hallway simulator it still has FF identity all over it. It gotten very radical with 15 and 16, where I felt it lose the identity.

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XIII I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt has almost no classic FF identity in the battle system. The menus are the only thing vaguely FF like. The flow, and none of the mechanics were specific to the Final Fantasy series and not just RPGs in general.

If they changed names and some of the graphics and another developer had their name on it just strictly based on the battle system it would have been lost in the sea of C/D tier RPGs with nice graphics.

 

[Saito Hikari]

I think you're sorta right on this. I kinda thought it would have been a good template to base an actual FFI remake on.

When I think of what a "back to the roots" direction the series should go in I think of that simple set up. "The party of adventurers is on a quest" and it's your job as the player to unravel the quest. The main characters don't give you big quest markers to follow, it's up to you to actually talk to NPCs and make note of what they're saying to figure out where to go next. Considerably less emphasis on ongoing plot and big flashy cutscenes and more about player agency in moving the quest along. The entire world is a mystery and you are there to unravel it.

The parts of FFXV where you can dick around and accidentally stumble upon an entire hidden dungeon is basically the closest to that feeling any FF has come in recent years.

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I had actually been kicking around an idea for XVII emphasizing this sort of thing for the past week.

Spoiler: FFXVII ideas

I personally envision a FF game going all in on exploration. Heavy emphasis on airship and foot travel, with both complementing each other. Exploration should feel enjoyable and a tangible part of gameplay, rather than just moving from point A to point B with occasional combat.

You could focus on building your characters for better combat performance, but you should also balance that with upgrading your airship in order to push through weather phenomena and land in more types of terrain. There would be a main quest, but you'd otherwise be free to access most areas earlier in the game if you get the necessary upgrades to explore in that direction. Some story beats might even change a bit, depending on whether you had already been there before the main quest takes you there.

If you just traveled a long distance on foot and find a spot that would be a suitable area for the airship to land in, you could call upon the airship to move there instead of having to walk all the way back. This could have other bonuses, like if you're on foot and find yourself in combat, and the airship is still close enough, you could have the ability to call upon any party members back on board for extra support, either by telling them to use ranged abilities or use any airship-specific tools/weapons on board such as cannons. This particular aspect would be better to manage as a turn-based game, but can be doable in action RPG format too.

See that giant swirling vortex in the distance? The nearest city would have a bunch of rumors about it, and you'd have to upgrade your airship to be strong enough to withstand the winds. While talking to people in the nearby city about it, you'd hear them speculate about what's behind the vortex, while there would be some people mentioning hearing what sounded like loud roaring from within, indicating that you should be ready for a fight once you're ready to attempt crossing through it. Some rumors about other locations could be leaving out key details since they are just rumors at the end of the day, and some people might be lying about what they know for various reasons, such as bandits in disguise trying to lure unaware travelers into a trap.

A late game surprise could include an upgrade to your airship so that it would be capable of underwater traversal as well, along with magical accessories that would enable your party to swim and fight underwater.

(On a tangent, I think a big reason why FFXIV fans stan Shadowbringers so hard is because of what players come across at the end of the story there. People were not expecting the end of Shadowbringers' arc to consist of by traveling through some unassuming rock tunnels on the sea floor, only to emerge in a MASSIVE modernized giant underwater city with major lore implications that re-contextualized everything that everyone knew about the antagonists.)

I'd like a FFV-style job system, or an Octopath-style system where everyone's main job is fixed but the sub-jobs are fully customizable. The latter approach might be more feasible with the advantage of making it easier to tailor party members' dialogue to their actual combat specialties and personalities, something even XII was lacking in (that game had no combat-related dialogue at all, both in and out of combat). Like have the game's dedicated shield wielder/tank telling other party members to get behind them when they see a big attack incoming, and other party members thanking them when they successfully intercept an incoming attack. Assuming the lead character is a custom player-created character, they can customize main and sub-job.

Some jobs should have exploration bonuses, such as being able to summon vines to scale walls, restrain unaware enemies or strike down and stun flying enemies to evade combat, and either would give you a free turn should you decide to initiate combat afterwards. There would be spells and abilities that can alter the environment both in and out of combat too, such as that earlier vine example allowing your ranged characters to climb to high ground or letting your melee reach a ranged enemy. Other jobs could be focused on airship combat instead. Maybe one job looks like it's designed to keep that party member benched on the airship to man the cannons and ballista whenever you're attacked with the airship present (or while on board the airship), but eventually they'd be able to join you in the field by bringing a cannon or ballista with them.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

See that's the point. It's basically unrecognizable as a FF game from its gameplay. Having references to the system of yore isn't enough, and instead of refining Square-Enix is focused on re-inventing with each new iteration.

I'm not saying they should go back to strictly turn based per se (though I would much prefer it) but focus on a battle system and continue refining it. In my opinion the battle mechanics in XII, XIII, and XV (I'm guessing XVI as well) are ultra sloppy because of lack of refinement. They don't need to continuously try re-inventing and starting from scratch with each new game.

On the subject of the FFVII remake in particular it's not a stretch to say that fans of the original game (obviously one of the targeted audiences) wanted something at least recognizable to the source material.

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I mostly agree.
Though I think Remake/Rebirth using the old ATB system in a action RPG is a bit more than a reference.
They've made it clear that they have no intention of returning to non action games, so with that in mind, this new system feels like a good place to iterate from.

 

[Alpheus]

I can't believe I even have to explain this, but the earliest FF games did not actually have minigames. Minigames only really began with VII. Minigames are absolutely not part of the core identity of the series when something like 5 or 6/16 mainline games had them (VII, VIII, IX, X, and XIV. Not sure if XI had any, I don't recall ever seeing any in I-VI, I'm drawing a total blank for XII even though I put like 100 hours into that game, and I don't remember hearing anything about XIII and XV having any either). The majority of them are bunched up in the middle part of the series. Unless you're one of those people who believe the series only really began at VII, but I doubt you're among that group.

Honestly, it was probably a mistake for Rebirth to heavily market the minigames. JRPG fans may eat that up because it's indirect nostalgia bait, but I imagine that sort of thing actively repulses the mainstream as much as word of mouth about bad sidequests do because it's a major indication of padding. We are several months out from release, and I see discourse about the minigames and divisive story has drowned out everything else about Rebirth. People generally really love one very well thought out minigame (like Triple Triad and Gwent from the Witcher series), but not like a whole slew of different minigames throughout the entire game (people don't look fondly on any of IX and X's minigames outside of making PTSD memes about doing them purely for the sake of 100% completion, and it sounds like Rebirth's minigames are ultimately going to age the same way, with the sole exception of that card game I keep hearing about.)

The actual world of mouth of Rebirth among mainstream gaming communities has not been kind at all. The word of mouth I see among casual gaming communities and even among the FF fanbase itself whenever someone brings up the minigames does not actually match its high review scores, and that's why I don't think this mythical GOTY bump that some people in this thread are banking on is going to happen either. (Assuming it even wins GOTY to begin with, I already see much of the gaming community getting ready to bend over backwards to justify giving it to the Elden Ring DLC, or Dragon Age 4 if it releases this year and turns out to be actually good.)

---

As for bringing the series back to its roots... I don't think it's actually as complicated as people are making it out to be. Put an emphasis on a party again and focus on exploration as a big part of the experience, instead of hyper focusing on the narrative and graphical fidelity so much that it results in development decisions that ultimately come at a major cost to the feeling that you are actually going out to travel the world. Going beyond that as far as trying to find the series' roots is just convoluted window dressing.

People want to actually play the game and see new things as they go along, not get distracted by ultimately unrelated shit.

By all accounts XIII (corridor discourse), XV (people keep telling me that the world is big but ultimately empty), and XVI (ditto) failed at that for various reasons. XIV nailed it somewhat but it's an MMO that's being constantly updated so I'd be worried if it didn't nail that. Remake confined everyone to a city, and Rebirth supposedly nailed it but it got buried behind minigame talk instead.

In addition to that, the mainstream impression I see of the recent FF games is that they are so far up their own asses in regards to the narrative that people aren't willing to take a risk on seeing if the actual gameplay is any good. The mainstream has been putting an emphasis on finding games with an enjoyable gameplay loop, and quite frankly the word of mouth of that in regards to the FF series as a whole is generally bad on that front, and the recent games have done nothing to change that perception.

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XI does have mini games, Corsair even has one built into its buffing kit where you play a kind of solitaire blackjack. But there's Chocobo raising for racing (but the racing is not interactive like VII/XIV style so it's more the raising and career of your Chocobo iirc) and there's also Chocobo Hot and Cold and there's also Pankration which is a monster raising coliseum thing. There's also Monstrosity which has you working your way up the food chain, morphed as a enemy mob and attacking other monsters.

 

[fourfourfun]

XIII is a solid ff tho, even if its a hallway simulator it still has FF identity all over it. It gotten very radical with 15 and 16, where I felt it lose the identity.

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Oh it was. I mean it pretty much followed the X templates (and even World Of Final Fantasy used it), it just made some mistakes structurally which FF games are usually good at masking.

I personally felt that even XV felt like Final Fantasy, but it just really struggled to know what it was doing. I didn't like the royal weapons, I didn't like how there was pretty much no approach with armour in this game, magic felt poorly implemented, and Noctis being some sort of superhuman vs. his rather regular mates upset the balance.

It had a load of charm though and I could feel the vibe in the game. It stating that it was a game for newcomers and longtime players was completely furthest from the truth I felt!

I've not touched XVI yet so I'm going to hold off, but I've not liked the setting and visuals from day one.

 

[brinstar]

I think you're sorta right on this. I kinda thought it would have been a good template to base an actual FFI remake on.

When I think of what a "back to the roots" direction the series should go in I think of that simple set up. "The party of adventurers is on a quest" and it's your job as the player to unravel the quest. The main characters don't give you big quest markers to follow, it's up to you to actually talk to NPCs and make note of what they're saying to figure out where to go next. Considerably less emphasis on ongoing plot and big flashy cutscenes and more about player agency in moving the quest along. The entire world is a mystery and you are there to unravel it.

The parts of FFXV where you can dick around and accidentally stumble upon an entire hidden dungeon is basically the closest to that feeling any FF has come in recent years.

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Yeah, that's exactly what I miss from this series. And a lot of RPGs, if I'm being honest. Dragon's Dogma 2 was one of the first ones in a while to really nail what I've been pining for. I want to get lost in a world and have to manage my items and magic to survive when away from civilization.

gosh darn it i need to learn how to make a game already and just do it myself >:(

 

[Disclaimer]

XIII I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt has almost no classic FF identity in the battle system. The menus are the only thing vaguely FF like. The flow, and none of the mechanics were specific to the Final Fantasy series and not just RPGs in general.

If they changed names and some of the graphics and another developer had their name on it just strictly based on the battle system it would have been lost in the sea of C/D tier RPGs with nice graphics.

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Strongly disagree. XIII's paradigm system was an interesting evolution of XII's gambit system, and had well-defined jobs with meaningful character-specific niches within said jobs.

It basically took XII's system and turned it all the elements that enabled passivity on their heads, making for a system that simultaneously had AI party members while also asking for high proactive and reactive engagement from the player via paradigm management, combined with the higher-than-series-average difficulty & the ranking mechanic.

XIII's battle system was demonstrably more in-line with past ATB FF than XV or XVI were. Both it and XII's were fantastic evolutions that retained series identity while iterating in smart ways. ATB ✅ Party-based ✅ Menus ✅ Job system ✅ Buffs & Debuffs (at their most impactful in-series, no less) ✅

Now if only the developers could've learned a thing or two from FFXII or Lost Odyssey about designing a properly navigable world with real towns and cities.

 

[vio55555]

Rebirth honestly felt like the modern adaptation of the classic feel of the series.
Not FFI, but IV-IX.
Really captured the character moments, and the locations, and the open world areas gave the impression of moving across the world map, with the same "abbreviated" impression the old maps had.
It's too bad the Remake trilogy has so much baggage.

The series really needs a healthy amount spinoffs too.
It was doing great in the 90s and 00s with Tactics, Chocobo games, Crystal Chronicles, and so on.
They pretty much stopped after 2011 though.
Not counting mobile gacha stuff, there's only been a handful of new spinoffs since then.
The Chocobo Series in particular, as the mascot series, should definitely be getting regular entries.

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I feel like the problem has been a lot of the spinoff haven't done well of late.

Chocobo GP flopped (of course that doesn't mean we won't see more Chocobo Dungeon games).

What was the last resounding success? Type 0 in 2011 perhaps?

That's a long time ago.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

I feel like the problem has been a lot of the spinoff haven't done well of late.

Chocobo GP flopped (of course that doesn't mean we won't see more Chocobo Dungeon games).

What was the last resounding success? Type 0 in 2011 perhaps?

That's a long time ago.

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Well, that's kinda what I'm saying.
There's been hardly anything since 2011, and most of it wasn't very good.

Since 2011 there's been
The Theatrhythm games. Which are great. But don't really scratch the RPG itch.
Explorers. Which wasn't great, and basically didn't even have a story.
Dissidia NT, which didn't really try with the story.
Chocobo GP, which was a mess of MTX.

Finally, World of Final Fantasy and Stranger of Paradise, which were both great, but basically the only 2 full length spinoff games in the last 13 years.
And those 3DS games are almost all over a decade old now.

 

[hopeblimey]

Strongly disagree. XIII's paradigm system was an interesting evolution of XII's gambit system, and had well-defined jobs with meaningful character-specific niches within said jobs.

It basically took XII's system and turned it all the elements that enabled passivity on their heads, making for a system that simultaneously had AI party members while also asking for high proactive and reactive engagement from the player via paradigm management, combined with the higher-than-series-average difficulty & the ranking mechanic.

XIII's battle system was demonstrably more in-line with past ATB FF than XV or XVI were. Both it and XII's were fantastic evolutions that retained series identity while iterating in smart ways. ATB ✅ Party-based ✅ Menus ✅ Job system ✅ Buffs & Debuffs (at their most impactful in-series, no less) ✅

Now if only the developers could've learned a thing or two from FFXII or Lost Odyssey about designing a properly navigable world with real towns and cities.

Click to shrink...

To be fair XII's battle system lacks franchise identity too. That's the worst game (besides XIII itself) to try comparing to make a case for any sort of long running identity in the franchise.

 

[vio55555]

Well, that's kinda what I'm saying.
There's been hardly anything since 2011, and most of it wasn't very good.

Since 2011 there's been
The Theatrhythm games. Which are great. But don't really scratch the RPG itch.
Explorers. Which wasn't great, and basically didn't even have a story.
Dissidia NT, which didn't really try with the story.
Chocobo GP, which was a mess of MTX.

Finally, World of Final Fantasy and Stranger of Paradise, which were both great, but basically the only 2 full length spinoff games in the last 13 years.
And those 3DS games are almost all over a decade old now.

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I agree with you, hopefully once we get past the FF7 Trilogy, we'll see some kind of rationalization of the mainline/remake/spinoff schedule. Big mainline-style remakes probably can't be more than a once every 10-15 years kind of things; ports/HD remasters can be much more often on the schedule.

I'm in the "mainline needs to be every 3-4 years if possible with maybe up to 2 full teams working on it at times of overlap (i.e. end of 17 production overlaps with first year or two of 18 production)" camp, but I do think there's room for spinoffs.

It's just that all the spinoffs did well after the big flood of mainline games created tens of millions of fans worldwide. Without that mainline push, why would anyone play Choboco or Tactics games? That's why the mainline situation has to be fixed first. Why would somebody who's 16-17 years old play any spinoffs when their only FF game might be 16 or 7 Remake?

If you were 16-17 in 2002 and had played a lot of mainline FFs that's a different story; you'd want to try all the spinoffs coming out over the next decade.

Obviously it's impossible to recreate the "big bang" moment of FF7 through X-2, but without mainline games every 3-4 years I don't see how we can recreate anything like that.

 

[Lucia]

I'm in the "mainline needs to be every 3-4 years if possible with maybe up to 2 full teams working on it at times of overlap (i.e. end of 17 production overlaps with first year or two of 18 production)" camp, but I do think there's room for spinoffs.

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I'm seeing this trend over the last dozen pages, if you guys want "a mainline game every few years with short time gaps", why are you guys limiting the pipeline to just two teams? Wouldn't it be better to have a third one (or even a forth) that could work as another buffer between CS1 & CS3? The former Luminous Productions team is right there under CS2.

 

[vio55555]

I'm seeing this trend over the last dozen pages, if you guys want "a mainline game every few years with short time gaps", why are you guys limiting the pipeline to just two teams? Wouldn't it be better to have a third one that could work as another buffer between CS1 & CS3? The former Luminous Productions team is right there under CS2.

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That's a possibility for sure; it's more just a discussion for how to get the mainline series ramped up again and out of this cycle of eternally longer development times. Getting 1-2 years of development of the following iteration done while the previous one is still a year or two away from release would help a lot.

I think there's still some here in the camp that one every 5 or 6 years is fine, but many of us don't see how the series can remain relevant to young gamers as a series like that. Spinoffs feed off the mainline so if there's few mainline, spinoffs won't sell well either.

Nintendo series can afford to come out one per console because they help sell each other. FF has to sell itself, so it needs to be more like one every 3 or 4 years for mainline.

 

[Bebpo]

There should be a major FF game every year. MMO expansions included.

14 Expansion
CBU1 team
CBU3 team
New team that maybe does a smaller budget game. Think like Type-0/Crisis Core level.

repeat on cycle.

Or

skip one year every cycle for mainline DQ or KH game to fill in. Would help SE's financials to have a major FF or DQ or KH game each year for sure.

 

[Hero]

Jacob posted another lengthy tweet sharing more insight and responding to some popular responses to his last tweet thread.


View: https://x.com/jnavok/status/1794895235522122040?s=46&t=IezoORW_XKRPDHwOyA9iyA

 

[Toth]

Interesting read that seems pretty dismal for the entire game market tbh

 

[Lumination]

I've said before that I don't think mainline FF can get away from being bombastic, epic, and high-budget. That is the brand, with some chocobos, crystals, and Ultimas thrown in.

But it is a very sobering thought to get another data point that GaaS is eating up all the attention and revenue of "boxed" games. That a series like TLoU would be considered a hook just to get you to buy the "real" recurring revenue generators on their box is a crazy thought. Ugh.

And of course you cannot expect audiences to buy 7/10 games. There are too many 9/10 games to play in any given year as is. Another tick in the "competition is plenty and possibly overcrowded" box.

 

[Chumunga64]

Yup. Elden Ring, BOTW, Baldur's Gate 3, they all trust the player to experiment and learn and think about their interactions with the world naturally.. Neither VIIR nor XVI have any trust in the players to do that.

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I remember someone pointing out that both rebirth and 16 didn't have much interesting moments merging of narrative and gameplay

like they talked about how no matter what your feelings are on the back half of the game, things like having to play without Ignis' cooking and help once he's blinded, that chapter where you're separated from all your friends, how the vibes of the campfire scenes are entirely different just sticks with you

in 16 and rebirth, the game really doesn't do that and they reserve story moments and those interactive cinematic sequences

rebirth even went as far as to take out those interesting parts like having to pay to save in the golden saucer and Yuffie stealing your materia

 

[duckroll]

Interesting read that seems pretty dismal for the entire game market tbh

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I don't think it's dismal for the entire game market, but it applies especially to the competition in the top-tier of the market. That's always been the area that is most unsustainable because of unrealistic growth and expectations as the market expands in the direction it has.

For a regular developer/publisher that isn't making AAA games and chasing that top % of sales that require 9/10 games that cost 200 million to make and need to sell 15-20 million to be worthwhile, they are largely okay. For the big boys, it's going to be layoffs after layoffs, restructure after restructure, and lots of gambling to find that big hit and then try to sustain it.

 

[Hero]

Now that I'm back at my PC I can take the time to put in some choice quotes I think are pretty interesting.

When a producer comes to you and says "Sorry, this isn't working, we're going to need twelve more months to redo then retest half the game" you can't say, "Sorry you are over budget, ship it as it is" at a publisher like Square Enix. A 10% additional investment in time or budget will be the difference between a 5/10 game and a 9/10 game, and generates millions of units more sold. And there is no world where everything in a creative product always goes the way it is intended. FF12 and FF15 both had a change of director (Matsuno, Tabata) during development. FF15 famously took a decade to make and started off as an FF13 spinoff. You cannot dictate "devs, be more efficient," you have to be able to know which creatives to give control, when to cut your losses and to have the cash reserves to pivot.

Click to shrink...

The more I think about the restructuring and seeing commentary like this is I can't help but wonder how much Square Enix is going to reallocate staff to support FF and DQ.

To that end, FF as a brand cannot simply get smaller, be made better, be made cheaper, and still be FF. And frankly speaking, the lesson from my prior thread isn't being learned in responses that say FF specifically should be smaller or cheaper. Cost is not the problem, sale price and market size are the problem. We need to admit that a larger portion of players today prefer service games and are voting with their wallets and time, playing titles like Genshin Impact instead.

Public game publishers will thus continue to place their main bets on the side of the market they can influence the most (AAA) while gamers should look to Indies and smaller publishers for their AA hits because expectations from consumers and investors are different between the two. (The real puzzle to me, which I hinted at in the previous thread, is why someone other than SQEX made Genshin Impact; that should have been their market to capture. Expect creating a similar title to be a major focus the next few years.)

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Again supports my notion that both XVI and Rebirth should have had PS4 versions available if they couldn't be on Xbox and PC. Even an extra 1-2 million units would've probably been the tipping point for investors.

And like I said on the other page, Kiryu or someone else at SE has to be looking at Genshin Impact and HSR and asking how they can do that with FF. But they need to make it with new characters, completely divorced of any characters or stuff so there's no "this game is for boomers" stuff and then they can add them in down the line once its a proven success.

So I return to, the problem is that FF brand was not selling to what the product's budget needed it to be. Part of this is going to be resolved by going multiplatform. And part of the problem is simply greater competition that isn't recoverable from. Today, FF14 and F2P mobile titles are subsidizing the fixed price titles, further indicating where consumers are willing to spend the most time and money within the SQEX family of titles.

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This is for all the people that keep saying "well these titles aren't selling badly, actually, Persona or Fire Emblem would kill to have these numbers." Sales units is just one measurement of how these titles are judged and viewed, it needs to be looked at holistically.

 

[Mephissto]

But it is a very sobering thought to get another data point that GaaS is eating up all the attention and revenue of "boxed" games. That a series like TLoU would be considered a hook just to get you to buy the "real" recurring revenue generators on their box is a crazy thought. Ugh.

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Yeah, sad state of affairs. Really hope SE can recover. Just sucks to see that they finally find their footing game quality wise but they get bad sales in return.

FF being my favorite franchise alongside Zelda it just hurts to see.

Rebirth honestly felt like the modern adaptation of the classic feel of the series.

Not FFI, but IV-IX.


Really captured the character moments, and the locations, and the open world areas gave the impression of moving across the world map, with the same "abbreviated" impression the old maps had.


It's too bad the Remake trilogy has so much baggage.

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I feel the same way. Hope part 3 with a well prices trilogy pack and hopefully day and date PC port can help to turn the sales around.