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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I've never voted Republican in my life

Putting criminals back out in the street for insanely low bail prices and not prosecuting crimes is a sure fire way for us to lose upcoming elections though, just look at what happened in the most recent Seattle election.
Ever since the Willie Horton ad Democrats have been trying to flank Republicans from the right on LaW AnD OrDeR and ToUgH On cRiMe, and not only that had led to catastrophic outcomes for America, especially for minorities and vulnerable groups, it is also a losing political strategy. You will never ever be more cruel than Republicans, and you just accept and validate their framing of this issue, and argue about it on their home turf.
 

Doran

Member
Jun 9, 2018
1,849
I understand the flight risk part of bail, but they should also be considering if someone is a danger to society. Like jfc what a failure of the system.
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
Could be the kind of guy who'd just shrug his shoulders or blame someone else.
That's what I'd bet on. Especially when a criminal has a lengthy history, any remorse they show is usually just fake for the courts. They don't care about victims. They usually have excuses to justify their crimes. A person doesn't have to be a mass murderer to display psychopath attitudes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
It really is immensely stupid that people like this are so often allowed to go back out into society without any real supervision, therapy, or other means to help control their behavior or address the problems that led them to committing crimes in the first place. You're just setting them up for failure and the ways in which they end up failing predictably harm others.
agreed.
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
It really is immensely stupid that people like this are so often allowed to go back out into society without any real supervision, therapy, or other means to help control their behavior or address the problems that led them to committing crimes in the first place. You're just setting them up for failure and the ways in which they end up failing predictably harm others.
There are diversion programs that exist to motivate offenders to change. But they are few and far between because they're difficult to implement in smaller areas. It's most certainly possible but, like mental health services, is significantly underfunded. If it isn't punitive it gets overlooked.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
Ever since the Willie Horton ad Democrats have been trying to flank Republicans from the right on LaW AnD OrDeR and ToUgH On cRiMe, and not only that had led to catastrophic outcomes for America, especially for minorities and vulnerable groups, it is also a losing political strategy. You will never ever be more cruel than Republicans, and you just accept and validate their framing of this issue, and argue about it on their home turf.
Well, prepare for a GOP president and congress then, because voters care more about how things work in practice than some theoretical value judgment on the system.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,960
Come into the thread to see how the case is going and hoping that there are no further deaths reported - walk in to find a big-balls measuring contest over who wants the death penalty the strongest for this guy.

All threads that discuss a heinous crime will ultimately discuss punishment as well.

Nothing wrong with that discussion, so long as everyone cites meaningful points.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Well, prepare for a GOP president and congress then, because voters care more about how things work in practice than some theoretical value judgment on the system.
I am fully prepared for the Republican party to win the midterms, but I really don't think this is the main reason why they will.
But I'm sure conservative Democrats will act like it is, that's always their move, get elected, deliver on nothing and then make the case that the problem is that the party hadn't adopted Republican positions.
I mean that's how we got to have the biggest prison population in the world and our the cruel and barbaric prison system.

I don't think I would have supported those practices even if they worked to reduce crime, but they don't. Like we fucking tried giving people life in prison over stealing a pizza, like for real, how tougher on crime are we gonna try before we realize this shit just doesn't work?
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
I am fully prepared for the Republican party to win the midterms, but I really don't think this is the main reason why they will.
But I'm sure conservative Democrats will act like it is, that's always their move, get elected, deliver on nothing and then make the case that the problem is that the party hadn't adopted Republican positions.
I mean that's how we got to have the biggest prison population in the world and our the cruel and barbaric prison system.

I don't think I would have supported those practices even if they worked to reduce crime, but they don't. Like we fucking tried giving people life in prison over stealing a pizza, like for real, how tougher on crime are we gonna try before we realize this shit just doesn't work?
There's a gulf of space between putting people in prison for stealing a pizza and letting violent criminals run free for years without prosecuting them.

It's not a binary decision. There are a million shades of gray and you can't apply one idea to every situation.

If you don't have ALL democrats on board, you're never going to win an election, and by going so "all or nothing" and refusing to work with more conservative democrats you're essentially handing everything over to the GOP and cementing their policies.
 

Beefsquid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,178
USA
I've never voted Republican in my life

Putting criminals back out in the street for insanely low bail prices and not prosecuting crimes is a sure fire way for us to lose upcoming elections though, just look at what happened in the most recent Seattle election.
There is a vast difference between "he shouldn't be out on the streets" and "he should be murdered by the state".
Yes I agree he shouldn't be on the streets for such an insanely low bail. That's a failure of the court system and backlog.
No, I do not believe the state should sentence him to death no matter how heinous the crime. The death penalty is barbaric and used to murder innocent people.
 

Blitzpwnage

Member
Feb 11, 2018
552
Seeing all the talk about killing the driver is really disheartening.

I am actually from this area and frequented this street. The fact that people are jumping to punishment when the larger community is still reeling from this whole thing is really hard to read. I do ask, how many of you nonchalantly talking about the death penalty live in this area? I can get people being upset and if you are DIRECTLY related to the incident then emotions and tensions are probably a lot more high.

I am in no way saying that people that aren't as locally affected by this are by no means overreacting or anything. But as someone who is being affected by this in more ways than one this whole conversation around if we should kill the driver or not is really inhumane feeling. It's not needed right now, it feels so extra and that it's not helping people actually affected by the circumstances.

I used to go to Boscos Social Club with my friends, my mother worked a a resale shop right there, I can see it some of the pictures. Let the blood dry before you want even more blood. Yeah I agree there should be consequences, of course there should, but lets not talk about shedding more blood while people are still fighting for their lives. :(

Sorry if I contradict myself and if I am not making complete sense, this is really negatively affecting my life. My dad is actually going to Waukesha Memorial Wednesday and this is all too real for me.

Side note: I am mentally taking care of myself. I refuse to watch any of the videos of the event and have seen snippets but am trying to take the day as it comes. I get that I don't need to come here and read this stuff but it's still really hard to not.
 

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,788
Elf Tower, New Mexico
There's a gulf of space between putting people in prison for stealing a pizza and letting violent criminals run free for years without prosecuting them.

It's not a binary decision. There are a million shades of gray and you can't apply one idea to every situation.

If you don't have ALL democrats on board, you're never going to win an election, and by going so "all or nothing" and refusing to work with more conservative democrats you're essentially handing everything over to the GOP and cementing their policies.
You are acting like this is a regular occurrence because of democratic policies. This case is obviously the result of a historic pandemic and people getting set loose to stop jail overcrowding during said pandemic.

It's more like you are using this to push your own agenda of being tough on crime, when in reality outside of dictatorships America is the toughest on crime in the world, a fact that has been pointed out several times that you are ignoring.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
There's a gulf of space between putting people in prison for stealing a pizza and letting violent criminals run free for years without prosecuting them.

It's not a binary decision. There are a million shades of gray and you can't apply one idea to every situation.

If you don't have ALL democrats on board, you're never going to win an election, and by going so "all or nothing" and refusing to work with more conservative democrats you're essentially handing everything over to the GOP and cementing their policies.
We have tested the theory that harsher prison sentences and more cruel treatment for people on bail/parole is a way to reduce crime.
We did it for decades.

And all we got to show for it the highest prison population in the world, with some of the most cruel and inhuman treatment for criminals, at every step of the way, and not to mention a system that convict innocent people all the fucking time.

We keep trying the same thing and expecting different results.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,271
Appalling situation. Also not surprised to see many on ERA act like conservatives on law and order. Principles fall on the wayside because of incidents. The death penalty is a disgusting penalty, doesn't prevent crime, and ensnared innocent and poor people. Stop being so fucking shameful with this shit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
We have tested the theory that harsher prison sentences and more cruel treatment for people on bail/parole is a way to reduce crime.
We did it for decades.

And all we got to show for it the highest prison population in the world, with some of the most cruel and inhuman treatment for criminals, at every step of the way, and not to mention a system that convict innocent people all the fucking time.

We keep trying the same thing and expecting different results.
yes.

Well, prepare for a GOP president and congress then, because voters care more about how things work in practice than some theoretical value judgment on the system.
yes, we know the majority will always be more committed to order than to justice. Requires less brain cell engagement and provides cover from dealing with hard issues in productive (rather than punitive) ways.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
this guy was charged with bail jumping and still given bail?

i'm not a pro jail guy but seems a bit fucked up
 

Rampage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,143
Metro Detriot
Appalling situation. Also not surprised to see many on ERA act like conservatives on law and order. Principles fall on the wayside because of incidents. The death penalty is a disgusting penalty, doesn't prevent crime, and ensnared innocent and poor people. Stop being so fucking shameful with this shit.

It not being a conservative when guy with domestic assault felonies is walking free with no observation while awaiting trail. It is a common pattern that people who commit domestic assault are highly likely to continue to be violent and escalate without intervention. In an ideal world, he would have been held before trial. Or as part of a condition of a bond, who have had to pass a mental check to determine if it is okay to let him out with a tether and curfew. Or if his level of violence deem it safer for the public that he was held. I don't think those awaiting trial should be in general population. I do believe they deserve a speedy trail.

And as horrific as this crime is, I still don't believe in the death penalty. Too many people in our system of American justice are given the death penality that don't desrve it or are even innocent.

You can want justice system reform AND still be pissed off current system failures that allows tragedies to happen.
 

Futureman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,408
Can't wrap my head around what he did here. Like he must understand if he was running from a crime he just committed that running over dozens of people at high speed was only going to make things MUCH MUCH worse? And why would you stay on the parade route for so long? Surely turning off a side road would make more sense if they were trying to get away.

Gotta wonder if drugs were involved.
 

Lonewolf

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,900
Oregon
All threads that discuss a heinous crime will ultimately discuss punishment as well.

Nothing wrong with that discussion, so long as everyone cites meaningful points.

The state this happened in doesn't have the death penalty, so talking about it's benefits and drawbacks in this thread about an active incident is pointless and could bury posts with actual news.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,271
It not being a conservative when guy with domestic assault felonies is walking free with no observation while awaiting trail. It is a common pattern that people who commit domestic assault are highly likely to continue to be violent and escalate without intervention. In an ideal world, he would have been held before trial. Or as part of a condition of a bond, who have had to pass a mental check to determine if it is okay to let him out with a tether and curfew. Or if his level of violence deem it safer for the public that he was held. I don't think those awaiting trial should be in general population. I do believe they deserve a speedy trail.

And as horrific as this crime is, I still don't believe in the death penalty. Too many people in our system of American justice are given the death penality that don't desrve it or are even innocent.

You can want justice system reform AND still be pissed off current system failures that allows tragedies to happen.

Did I say anything about judicial reform? No. I was speaking to people calling for his head with the death penalty. I'm not even speaking to reform advocates, and explicitly avoided them for the reasons you posted above. You're speaking to the wrong person on this issue.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
Can't wrap my head around what he did here. Like he must understand if he was running from a crime he just committed that running over dozens of people at high speed was only going to make things MUCH MUCH worse? And why would you stay on the parade route for so long? Surely turning off a side road would make more sense if they were trying to get away.

Gotta wonder if drugs were involved.

He wasn't thinking. No drugs needed. When you realize you fucked up you tend to keep going rather than own up to it
 

Lonewolf

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,900
Oregon
Can't wrap my head around what he did here. Like he must understand if he was running from a crime he just committed that running over dozens of people at high speed was only going to make things MUCH MUCH worse? And why would you stay on the parade route for so long? Surely turning off a side road would make more sense if they were trying to get away.

Gotta wonder if drugs were involved.

Might have thought he killed his victim in the crime he was leaving. Life in prison without parole is life in prison without parole, don't matter how many you killed.
 

Futureman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,408
Might have thought he killed his victim in the crime he was leaving. Life in prison without parole is life in prison without parole, don't matter how many you killed.

The police officer on the press conference right now said this guy was not engaged in a pursuit. Maybe he just meant he wasn't actively running from the police. I guess he could still be running from something else.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,289
something really similar happened in Austin a few years ago - cops were engaged in a car chase with a suspect and he drove onto a street that is closed for pedestrians bar hopping at night.

My thoughts are with the victims this is a horrible situation.

I do have to say - I question the judgement of engaging in pursuits of perps leaving crime scenes unless the risk that person poses to society is higher than the risk of engaging in a potential chase. In the case of Austin I was fucking angry because APD was chasing a guy over a minor crime downtown on the weekend when they knew it would be filled with people out and about at night.

Fuck that guy, but I really think car chases are something police should reconsider especially if you know who the person is and you have their plates. Unless they are planning a terroist attack it feels like the risk to the populace is higher by pursuing them in a car chase.

edit: maybe it wasn't a police chase? Anyway my points generally stands about car chases.
 

Tya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,665
This thread is like a mass neurosis of people just dropping their mental baggage without knowing what happened or why.
 

Jokerman

Member
May 16, 2020
6,957
If the death penalty worked, you kind of get the impression it would have done so by now, considering how long you guys have had it. It isn't a deterrent, it isn't cost effective, so what is the point of it?
 

Lost Lemurian

Member
Nov 30, 2019
4,299
If the death penalty worked, you kind of get the impression it would have done so by now, considering how long you guys have had it. It isn't a deterrent, it isn't cost effective, so what is the point of it?
The death penalty could only theoretically work in a universe where the justice system is infallible and human beings always acted rationally based on a risk/reward analysis of their actions.

The problem is that a lot of people believe we live in that world, so it is difficult to dissuade them that the death penalty is functionally useless.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,036
If the death penalty worked, you kind of get the impression it would have done so by now, considering how long you guys have had it. It isn't a deterrent, it isn't cost effective, so what is the point of it?

sate the bloodthirst of vengeful Americans. crime and the subsequent punishment is a top US kink
 

Rune Walsh

Too many boners
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,036
Three sets of siblings are among the critically injured as well. As a parent, I can't imagine sitting there in the hospital ICU with your kids fighting for their lives. It's stuff like this that makes me wish hell were real so this guy could burn for eternity. I'm not pro-death penalty btw. Personally, I'd rather die than spend my life in prison and, as others have said, if the death penalty were a deterrent, it would be working by now.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
If the death penalty worked, you kind of get the impression it would have done so by now, considering how long you guys have had it. It isn't a deterrent, it isn't cost effective, so what is the point of it?
The point of the carceral system in the US is to first and foremost keep black people oppressed. It also does it for other groups, and these days it's to a pretty large degree a money making scheme for a bunch of for profit businesses, from from prisons through bail bonding all the way to companies that use prison labor. But racism and especially anti-black racism was always a huge part of what make it what it is, and also how it is sold to the American public, without fail.

Conservative are going to use this case to push for harsher prison sentences and to to fight any attempt at cash bail reform. And you can bet your ass they wouldn't have done it if the driver was white and right wing. I mean they are passing laws legalizing driving over left wing protests. They don't actually care about keeping people safe.
 

Jokerman

Member
May 16, 2020
6,957
sate the bloodthirst of vengeful Americans. crime and the subsequent punishment is a top US kink
I could buy that if it was some kind of public spectacle, but is just knowing a 'bad person' has been executed enough to satiate any bloodlust? Especially for people you don't even know. I could understand a relative or friend of a victim feeling vengeful but it can't be healthy to feel that way about every violent criminal.
 
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