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Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
She really dishonored herself. It feels like one of those things you would think was awesome when you're a teenager but when you get a bit older, you realize it's just a terrible idea. She comes off as entitled, arrogant, and petty. Just bereft of wisdom. Even if she was 'right,' this was not right. Handle it differently, because you might not know the whole story. I remember being loudly indignant about a professor who missed class a lot, only to find out that her daughter was hospitalized with I believe leukemia and that's why she missed.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Let's not highlight the drunk too much. Let's highlight the faculty who allowed an open secret like this to go on for so long.
I'll actually say that the issues with the alcoholic teacher are broad enough and damaging enough to the wider student body to be reasonable addressing. It's the more personal issues with the main office I feel are inappropriate.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,402
No one is approaching that way, no.

There's more in her speech. If we take her words, which we have no reason to call false, the school has a history of failing to actively work for their kids.

She used her voice to highlight this.
Pssst. Not allowed. It was a specific day to pretend nothing is wrong and celebrate the school despite of it being shit.
Really petty of her to ignore decorum.
 

bangai-o

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,527
No one is approaching that way, no.

There's more in her speech. If we take her words, which we have no reason to call false, the school has a history of failing to actively work for their kids.

She used her voice to highlight this.
You might need a transcript of the speech. She is literally complaining about submitting paperwork for a scholarship and then tries to wrap her issues around an alcoholic teacher. She is not representing any other students at all.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,742
She really dishonored herself. It feels like one of those things you would think was awesome when you're a teenager but when you get a bit older, you realize it's just a terrible idea. She comes off as entitled, arrogant, and petty. Just bereft of wisdom.
You're purposefully painting someone engaging in advocacy in the worst possible light. Maybe when she's a bit older she'll be proud she did it. Maybe it will lead to systemic changes that will have a positive impact on future students. Maybe other students are proud someone stood up for them and said what they wish they had the platform to say. It sucks for you (and others) to smear a young woman based on her age like that has any bearing on whether or not she is right.
 

Vyrak

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
663
lol, what lie? I, factually, think she took an event that was meant to celebrate all of these students and used it as a soapbox for her personal grievances. That some students might applaud that in no way changes that belief.

And again, this conversation is so, as Krejlooc rightly said, frivolous, that your extreme behavior is very odd.

You need to stop now.

The lie that you give a shit about the graduating class. Again, give me the timestamp of all the clearly uncomfortable students that you claim exist.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
School districts do not immediately fire teachers with alcohol issues. Instead, they offer assistance, including interventions to help the teacher overcome those issues. It can take time. If the teacher does not recover, then eventual he or she will be let go.
Ofcourse schools can't fire teachers quickly. This is common knowledge and I wasn't even remotely suggesting that. Schools do have the discretion of putting teachers in the waiting room where teachers are sent off to do nothing but get paid for it.

If this teacher was administration classes drunk for over a month at that point I would say the school was acting too slow.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,999
I can relate with teachers bringing their worst behaviors to school. I remember getting in trouble back in 6th grade with a couple of friends because we got to class before the teacher did and saw his open Heineken bottles on his desk. Dude was a supreme ass so it explained a lot.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,402
Pretty unbelievable what I have to read here. Imagine if people pulled this type of rhetoric on a far more hot button topic there would be mayhem.

And sure in the end this isn't as serious as any of the other big hot button topics still as someone that experienced and seen a lot of educational negligence and later experienced the opposite it cannot be overstated how much of a difference good teachers make vs bad teachers. So I find it frankly appalling how much shade is thrown at someone that doesn't have equal footing in the power dynamic between student and teacher and thus has very limited power to affect the structures they have to deal with.
 
Jan 18, 2018
2,711
Working in education, I tend to side with the schools on stuff like this. While I'm sure the staff weren't perfect, high-achieving nightmare students are a common occurrence these days.

I'd like to hear specific reactions to her speech. If the general consensus is "She's right, even if that was a rough way of getting her point across," then that's fine. Somehow though, I think the reaction will be more like "Yep, that's Nataly and her helicopter parents. Nothing's ever enough for them."
Absolutely none of that is evidence. The speech itself is just a testimony, the crowd reactions are kids cheering authority being challenged (and seemed to mostly happen around the attack on the specific teacher), mothers are often proud of the valedictorian children, and the school will of course not comment on these issues publicly.

People like you guys are the reason teachers got away with helping kids cheat, sleeping with students, and being racist at my old high school. Because you gotta respect authority even if they're ruining your education.
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
You're purposefully painting someone engaging in advocacy in the worst possible light. Maybe when she's a bit older she'll be proud she did it. Maybe it will lead to systemic changes that will have a positive impact on future students. Maybe other students are proud someone stood up for them and said what they wish they had the platform to say. It sucks for you (and others) to smear a young woman based on her age like that has any bearing on whether or not she is right.

She should be regretting it already. It's national news with the vast majority of people talking about how shameful the display was. She doesn't give a shit about students, or else she would have realized that a valedictorian speech is not an award acceptance speech. She's being vindictive because she's entitled. If she knew a teacher was having an affair, she would have probably put it in the speech.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,969
Dude.

It's her platform. She can say whatever the fuck she wants on how shitty her experiences were. She thanked a lot of teachers, if you see the video. She has the right to point out the issue with the school, not in a private setting, but calling their ass out.

And then there's you, calling her out on the internet, without knowing her or her experiences.

Local paper? You'll say FAKE NEWS.
Online paper? FAKE NEWS.
Protest? LOL

She used the perfect platform to talk. You just don't know how to justify someone else's experience without pretending you were there.

Did you hear about the teacher getting arrested? No? Then news will not do SHIT. This is the only way. She has nothing to gain here, and her speech will improve the school, not ruin it.

I hope more people speak up about their experiences like this. You indeed have no idea of the truth, even when she is literally spilling the truth in from of thousands.

I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but I do find the idea that as a valedictorian she earned the right to have a platform to say whatever she wants, as a solid one. Again, I'm not around that school and have no knowledge or experience with what's going on there, but I've also had plenty of shitty experiences with people blowing shit up to large proportions when they don't get what they want (anyone who's ever worked a service job will experience this on a near daily basis). They don't usually understand limitations of the system, their own responsibility for follow-through, or empathy for the people in these positions. That does not mean that I don't believe her. I just refuse to take someone for their word when I have no firsthand experience in cases like these. It could be true or it could not be. That said, it was her platform and if she thought that was a good use of her time, then I suppose I'm fine with it, but with how one sided such a situation is, I don't find it that useful. If it resonates with the people who actually go there and it initiates action, I guess it wasn't for nothing. I think there could be more constructive ways of approaching this situation.

As an aside for the people who think the kids liking this moment means anything, here's an example for you that shows how kids can get stuff wrong. I remember one day as a senior prank, a group of kids brought a bunch of chickens in to the school and let them loose. It was a disaster. Kids literally booting chickens off balconies, trampling them in the halls, just outright torturing them. It was a chicken apocalypse. The kids had a great time, cheered on the pranksters. The parents of the kids who did it mostly thought it was all just fun and games. Meanwhile, the school faced investigations, some traumatized students, and at least one fired faculty member over the incident because some other parents thought the school didn't do enough to prevent this. The kids cheered that on too despite the school really having no way to stop this from happening (it wasn't a huge school with a lot of resources). Mob mentality doesn't mean the offending students and parents were right in the long-run, they just liked the chaos of the moment.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Anyway,
People like you guys are the reason teachers got away with helping kids cheat, sleeping with students, and being racist at my old high school. Because you gotta respect authority even if they're ruining your education.
She's the valedictorian, her education was in no way been ruined.

And jumping from my point to your argument is a pretty massive leap. I just think this wasn't the right way to go about it. Maybe it in fact was, and I'm wrong. That's always a perfectly reasonable possibility.
 

Deleted member 5359

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,326
What threats? I'm saying he's acting rude and it's uncalled for.

You started off by attacking the character of a young woman for speaking out. You dismissively questioned the intelligence of her classmates for supporting her. Your response was called into question and your response to that was "you need to stop", which is obviously a threat considering you're a moderator.

Way to make a day meant to celebrate the entire graduating class all about you.

This was a ridiculously immature and selfish display by someone who had nothing to lose and everything to gain by playing to the crowd and using her stage time to air largely personal grievances.

Just because she was challenging authority does not mean she was right.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,742
She should be regretting it already. It's national news with the vast majority of people talking about how shameful the display was. She doesn't give a shit about students, or else she would have realized that a valedictorian speech is not an award acceptance speech. She's being vindictive because she's entitled. If she knew a teacher was having an affair, she would have probably put it in the speech.
The people that are talking about it being shameful or framing it that way are probably mostly right-leaning jerks or boomers who would have a problem with kids doing any sort of advocacy anyways because "well they are just kids, like do they even have brains" or some shit. screw their opinion. There's probably a huge overlap with people who say stuff like "I love black people but BLM should really just calm down".
 

Kangi

Profile Styler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,954
The valedictorian didn't get enough personal attention from the office or her counselor? Well no shit, she's the valedictorian, she's doing great and she's going to continue to do great.
She's the valedictorian, her education was in no way been ruined.
Her success does not justify their behavior. Indeed, her success is the only reason we got to hear any of this. To dismiss her complaints, as well as doubt their validity, because she was successful despite the circumstances only doubles down on how much this could have been affecting the less successful students, and how it could be continuing to do so. What other result is there, if we just want to help the school staff silence her?
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
You started off by attacking the character of a young woman for speaking out. You dismissively questioned the intelligence of her classmates for supporting her. Your response was called into question and your response to that was "you need to stop", which is obviously a threat considering you're a moderator.
I think she acted immature. That's not attacking her character, I am completely open to the idea she is a wonderful human being. I just think she acted poorly in this instance.

I also did not dismiss the intelligence of her classmates, I said kids often applaud challenges to authority. That is true.

The level of aggression in this thread is pretty baffling, and I would say that if I was a mod or not. We don't need to hate each other just because we disagree with each other.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Her success does not justify their behavior. Indeed, her success is the only reason we got to hear any of this. To dismiss her complaints, as well as doubt their validity, because she was successful despite the circumstances only doubles down on how much this could have been affecting the less successful students, and how it could be continuing to do so. What other result is there, if we just want to help the school staff silence her?
It could be effecting the other students, that's true. But this speech was about her own issues.

I actually at this point would be interested in further follow up from other students. If the lack of care for students from the counselors and main office are serious systemic issues, that would color this somewhat differently.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
You started off by attacking the character of a young woman for speaking out. You dismissively questioned the intelligence of her classmates for supporting her. Your response was called into question and your response to that was "you need to stop", which is obviously a threat considering you're a moderator.
He's right on all counts. And he made his points civilly.
 

Vyrak

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
663
I think she acted immature. That's not attacking her character, I am completely open to the idea she is a wonderful human being. I just think she acted poorly in this instance.

I also did not dismiss the intelligence of her classmates, I said kids often applaud challenges to authority. That is true.

The level of aggression in this thread is pretty baffling, and I would say that if I was a mod or not. We don't need to hate each other just because we disagree with each other.

Can you please give me the timestamp?
 

Wafflinson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
2,084
You started off by attacking the character of a young woman for speaking out. You dismissively questioned the intelligence of her classmates for supporting her. Your response was called into question and your response to that was "you need to stop", which is obviously a threat considering you're a moderator.

It couldn't possibly be that he is commenting on her character due to what she said and where she said it....

It is disingenuous to imply that that those criticizing her are doing it simply because she is a girl "speaking out".

This was simply not the correct platform to air these grievances imo. Valedictorian is not a blank check to go off on those who you have grudges against (not to mention it is a setting where the other side is helpless if you are not being entirely truthful) and is the reason why schools require that speeches be turned in in advance for approval.

The Valedictorians at the school I teach at are told in advance that the moment they go off script they are getting yanked, though it has never actually come up or been an issue. (Rule is mostly in place because they have a time limit and parents put a lot of pressure on the school to keep graduation short)
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
The people that are talking about it being shameful or framing it that way are probably mostly right-leaning jerks or boomers who would have a problem with kids doing any sort of advocacy anyways because "well they are just kids, like do they even have brains" or some shit. screw their opinion. There's probably a huge overlap with people who say stuff like "I love black people but BLM should really just calm down".

That is certainly a hot take. This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with disgracing yourself by shooting on professionals in an entitled, smug, arrogant, self-centered rant in a venue that doesn't call for it. Vale(vin)dictorian.

I'm sure she's a great person, she just made a miscalculation and handled this in a petulant and petty way.
 

Yasumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,593
What the fuck is this thread? If the school's not taking care of its students to the point that the valedictorian is effected, it deserves to be called out. Now the school *has* to enact change. I'm not seeing how this is bad for anybody except the administration that clearly weren't doing their job.

Can't believe people here are saying she shouldn't have done it or that she should be ashamed. Neogaf's the fuck over there.
 

Kangi

Profile Styler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,954
It could be effecting the other students, that's true. But this speech was about her own issues.
Yes, I would think it's easier to talk about your own personal issues with the school staff than to try to relate it to an entire student body, particularly when this speech was improvised. Call it lack of foresight if you must, but I'll balk at the idea that it should be used as yet another reason to dismiss her.
 

Deleted member 16609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,828
Harlem, NYC
It is all evidence, it is not absolute evidence but it is literally evidence. It is what we have to work with. Occam's Razor makes the easier assumption here truth imo.

You are ignoring everything to side against her because she MIGHT be lying.

And if she is telling the truth, then voicing concerns that have been ignored on a platform where they cannot be ignored sounds like a bright move. Yet you seem against the idea of using that platform regardless because it's "not appropriate".

There is nothing to suggest she is lying, if she is not lying the platform choice was literally perfect.
Is not what you know is what you can prove. Kids will cheer at anything. Because if she really gave a shit she would have voice her concerns to the district a long time ago. If not by her, her parents. I refuse to believe a teacher gets arrested in front of students and said teacher kept their job.
 

Vyrak

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
663
What the fuck is this thread? If the school's not taking care of its students to the point that the valedictorian is effected, it deserves to be called out. Now the school *has* to enact change. I'm not seeing how this is bad for anybody rxcept the administration that clearly weren't doing their job.

Can't believe people here are saying she shouldn't have done it or that she should be ashamed. Neogaf's the fuck over there.

Nah, the school won't do shit, if this thread is any indication people are more than willing to be subservient to cancerous authority.
 

Vyrak

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
663
Is not what you know is what you can prove. Kids will cheer at anything. Because if she really gave a shit she would have voice her concerns to the district a long time ago. If not by her, her parents. I refuse to believe a teacher gets arrested in front of students and said teacher kept their job.

Do you have a link that shows she didn't voice her concerns earlier?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
You guys wanna know how systemic issues don't get addressed? Worst case scenario is she's full of shit and making an ass of herself. In which case, who cares? It's one speech at one graduation. Authority needs to be challenged, even if it gets messy when you do so.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,742
That is certainly a hot take. This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with disgracing yourself by shooting on professionals in an entitled, smug, arrogant, self-centered rant in a venue that doesn't call for it. Vale(vin)dictorian.

I'm sure she's a great person, she just made a miscalculation and handled this in a petulant and petty way.
It has to do with a society that shits on people for speaking out, especially young people, and especially women. There's no way that doesn't color a lot of people's perception when they want to frame it a certain way.

Also, damn you have a lot of insults ready for this girl. Like, a lot.

Smug
Arrogant
Petty
Petulant
Vindictive
Entitled
Self-centered
Shameful


All that over a bright young woman using her platform to speak about something important to her. It's no wonder we have trouble progressing as a society or fixing anything.
 

Wafflinson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
2,084
What the fuck is this thread? If the school's not taking care of its students to the point that the valedictorian is effected, it deserves to be called out. Now the school *has* to enact change. I'm not seeing how this is bad for anybody rxcept the administration that clearly weren't doing their job.

Can't believe people here are saying she shouldn't have done it or that she should be ashamed. Neogaf's the fuck over there.
It is completely possible that the school is trash and everything she said is true.

It is also completely possible that it is all high school BS because High School students are terrible at making objective judgement about the behavior of others.


Either way this was not the correct platform unless someone presents evidence that she and others tried multiple times to correct the issues through established channels only to be ignored. The most loud and public demonstration should be the last step, not the first.
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,232
South East Asia
What the fuck is this thread? If the school's not taking care of its students to the point that the valedictorian is effected, it deserves to be called out. Now the school *has* to enact change. I'm not seeing how this is bad for anybody rxcept the administration that clearly weren't doing their job.

Can't believe people here are saying she shouldn't have done it or that she should be ashamed. Neogaf's the fuck over there.

A lot of victim shaming, and that's discounting the folks who straight up accuse her of lying or being a brat.

And then you have the "just asking questions" excuse when people call them out on it lol.

Like I've said before, this thread is whack and I'm legit shocked by some of the responses here.
 

bangai-o

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,527
Her success does not justify their behavior. Indeed, her success is the only reason we got to hear any of this. To dismiss her complaints, as well as doubt their validity, because she was successful despite the circumstances only doubles down on how much this could have been affecting the less successful students, and how it could be continuing to do so. What other result is there, if we just want to help the school staff silence her?
Here is a very realistic scenario. The adviser has a caseload of seniors who are about to graduate, do great things, and need very little assistance. The adviser also has on that caseload freshman who are at risk of dropping out of school or worse. The adviser may just be focusing on the less fortunate students.

Once again, I am going to mention, she didnt say anything to represent any other students. She is not advocating for anyone else in her speech. It is all about herself and her missed scholarship deadline. She said one of the teachers has an alcohol problem as simply a "gotcha" point to the school.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Yes, I would think it's easier to talk about your own personal issues with the school staff than to try to relate it to an entire student body, particularly when this speech was improvised. Call it lack of foresight if you must, but I'll balk at the idea that it should be used as yet another reason to dismiss her.
I don't think this speech was improvised...she just used a different speech than the one she submitted in advance.
 

Vyrak

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
663
It is completely possible that the school is trash and everything she said is true.

It is also completely possible that it is all high school BS because High School students are terrible at making objective judgement about the behavior of others.


Either way this was not the correct platform unless someone presents evidence that she and others tried multiple times to correct the issues through established channels only to be ignored. The most loud and public demonstration should be the last step, not the first.

It was the perfect platform. No better place to voice your concerns than in front of the world.
 

GameShrink

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,680
People like you guys are the reason teachers got away with helping kids cheat, sleeping with students, and being racist at my old high school. Because you gotta respect authority even if they're ruining your education.
She didn't call attention to any of those wide-reaching issues though.

She blasted the school for not giving her enough attention. Everything was framed in the context of her own personal success, rather than a broader attack on the very real issues in the school system.

As an advisor myself, students like Nataly are not my priority. Students who are underprivileged would be getting my scholarship recommendations. Students who are struggling would be my getting appointments first.

She's not arguing for social justice, she's publicly shaming people for not doing enough for her.
 

Kangi

Profile Styler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,954
I don't think this speech was improvised...she just used a different speech than the one she said she would.
Improvised in the sense that it was makeshift and unofficial, so that she couldn't make it public beforehand and, say, collaborate with other students to bring their concerns to light as well.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
You guys wanna know how systemic issues don't get addressed? Worst case scenario is she's full of shit and making an ass of herself. In which case, who cares? It's one speech at one graduation. Authority needs to be challenged, even if it gets messy when you do so.
So do it when it's actually happening. Call the district administrators. If they do nothing, contact local news. But asking a child to act like an adult is asking too much so yeah she handled this stupidly, but hopefully she'll learn from it.
 

Wafflinson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
2,084
You guys wanna know how systemic issues don't get addressed? Worst case scenario is she's full of shit and making an ass of herself. In which case, who cares? It's one speech at one graduation. Authority needs to be challenged, even if it gets messy when you do so.
Tell that to the teachers whose careers are ruined when put on leave for investigation... regardless on if it is true on not.

I have seen teachers at the school I work at have their lives ruined over allegations far less severe than those being thrown out in this speech.


The idea that speech has no consequences is a delusion.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,258
You might need a transcript of the speech. She is literally complaining about submitting paperwork for a scholarship and then tries to wrap her issues around an alcoholic teacher. She is not representing any other students at all.
The things that affected her, if true, would have affected the other kids.

She was speaking for everyone.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,742
So do it when it's actually happening. Call the district administrators. If they do nothing, contact local news. But asking a child to act like an adult is asking too much so yeah she handled this stupidly, but hopefully she'll learn from it.
She made the news though, the national news. She ensured it wasn't ignored. I'm sure the administrators were there, she did speak to them. You're upset she didn't protest the "right way"?