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Can Indiana Jones style adventures be anything other than imperialistic white male power fantasies?

Geist

Geist

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,580
So, I'm finally trying to play Uncharted 3 for the first time (hated the first, liked the second, third is kind of meh so far), and something I've noticed in these games is how much it bothers me that Drake is going around killing people and blowing up historical landmarks. I mean, in two back-to-back missions in Uncharted 3, a historic Chateau in France gets burned to the ground, and an ancient Syrian citadel gets blown up with rocket launchers (which you can't completely blame on the bad guys since Sully was throwing those rockets around like they were candy). Do you know what that reminds me of? ISIS blowing up that 842-year-old mosque last year. I had some strong feelings when that happened, and that may be why I'm reacting so strongly about it in this game.

Anyway, before I rant anymore about Uncharted, the main point of this thread is that I actually really, really like Indiana Jones style adventures. I've probably rewatched Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Last Crusade dozens of times. The things is, Indiana Jones does many of the same things. Not quite so blatant maybe, after all, he's fighting Nazis and they're mostly to blame, but at the heart of it he's a white guy who's going to other countries and taking various cultures' important historical artifacts. It got me thinking, is it even possible to have a story like this, specifically a globetrotting, historical treasure hunting adventure, that isn't just a imperialistic white male power fantasy that shits all over other cultures?

Just to be clear, I still like Indiana Jones, I'm just trying to figure out if movies like this can still be made without being disrespectful and oftentimes racist to the cultures they use as settings.

Edit: The ISIS comparison was a bit too extreme, but I was coming up blank on other examples of purposeful destruction of ancient buildings. The point of the comparison isn't that Nathan Drake is ISIS, it's that blowing up historical landmarks is bad and Nathan Drake should feel bad.
 
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Mr_Antimatter

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,571
Uncharted: The Lost Legacy comes to mind. Lead is a Indian/aussie female, with her partner being a black South African.

And honestly? It was one of the best games of it's kind, and right behind UC 2 as my favorite in the series.

As for Indie, note he doesn't keep any of it in his adventures.
 
Parthenios

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,618
I thought the moral of Indiana Jones was that they should actually not be taking these artifacts and they don't actually belong in a museum? In Raiders everyone's face melts off and in Last Crusade they melt into skeletons or fall into the center of the earth. Everyone's punished and worse off for trying to take important aspects of other cultures they don't understand.
 
Nerdyone

Nerdyone

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,723
White people arent all bad. We don't need to demonize every story about a white man doing something heroic or cool that involves a non white culture as bad.
 
El Bombastico

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,067
It is definetely a product of the era it was set in.

"It belongs in a (white man's) museum!"

"But, that idol is the native's god. Don't you think we should just leave them be--"

"It belongs in a museum!"

To be fair, in the time the films are set, that is EXACTLY the mentality someone like Indy would have, educated or not. I dread Indy 5, but I would like if in this one he is finally called out on being essentially a Grave Robber.
 
Duane

Duane

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,453
Well, if you switch to Tomb Raider, it can be an imperialistic white female power fantasy instead. Bit better?
 
demosthenes

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,617
El Bombastico said:
It is definetely a product of the era it was set in.

"It belongs in a (white man's) museum!"

"But, that idol is the native's god. Don't you think we should just leave them be--"

"It belongs in a museum!"

To be fair, in the time the films are set, that is EXACTLY the mentality someone like Indy would have, educated or not. I dread Indy 5, but I would like if in this one he is finally called out on being essentially a Grave Robber.
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Hey, in the 2nd movie he kept the rocks in the area where they were from.
 
Mister Wednesday

Mister Wednesday

Member
Nov 8, 2017
258
The Indiana Jones storyline is usually about getting a magical item in a race against time with some bad guys who want the magical item for their own nefarious means

It's not like he's just looting countries for the sake of it
 
Nerdyone

Nerdyone

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,723
Parthenios said:
I thought the moral of Indiana Jones was that they should actually not be taking these artifacts and they don't actually belong in a museum? In Raiders everyone's face melts off and in Last Crusade they melt into skeletons or fall into the center of the earth. Everyone's punished and worse off for trying to take important aspects of other cultures they don't understand.
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The moral of Indiana Jones is that Nazis are bad and don't fuck with god. Stop trying to make everything over complicated or racial. The whole premise is based off of pulp movies (one in particular that eludes me) and fiction
 
demosthenes

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,617
Geist said:
Kind of missing the point of the thread. That was just a recent example of a historical landmark getting destroyed that outraged a lot of people.
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I addressed your thread title. Go play Lost Legacy, it literally refutes your title.

Then I addressed your body by saying it's ridiculous to compare ISIS to the video game series Uncharted.
 
G59

G59

Member
Nov 1, 2017
322
U.S.
Come on man... the whole point of games for me is to forget that horrible things like ISIS exist. They are supposed to be fun and an escape. I think you're doing it wrong.
 
molnizzle

molnizzle

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Oct 25, 2017
17,695
40e0cba8-3bf4-4f26-954r9e.jpeg
 

Deleted member 268

User requested account closure
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5,611
Yeah if creators can get past the novel concept it's not just white people that go on adventures and explore.
 
OP
OP
Geist

Geist

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,580
demosthenes said:
I addressed your thread title. Go play Lost Legacy, it literally refutes your title.

Then I addressed your body by saying it's ridiculous to compare ISIS to the video game series Uncharted.
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I'll get to it. Maybe the ISIS reference was too much, but that's the first thing I thought of concerning destruction of ancient buildings.
 
Xiaomi

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
I think Raiders is actually a pretty good indictment of imperialism and the white male urge to control and acquire just for the sake of it. I mean, Indy could have stopped the Nazis and their plan with his rocket launcher if he hadn't wanted to acquire the ark for his own self-aggrandizement. He's flawed and not the hero he presents himself as. And in the end the bigger imperialists (the "top men") take away his prize anyway.

In The Last Crusade, though? Yeah he straight up stole the Cross of Coronado and the movie portrays him as a hero for doing so.
 
Nerdyone

Nerdyone

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,723
El Bombastico said:
It is definetely a product of the era it was set in.

"It belongs in a (white man's) museum!"

"But, that idol is the native's god. Don't you think we should just leave them be--"

"It belongs in a museum!"

To be fair, in the time the films are set, that is EXACTLY the mentality someone like Indy would have, educated or not. I dread Indy 5, but I would like if in this one he is finally called out on being essentially a Grave Robber.
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At what point is any legitimate archeological studies allowed to be done then? Can only the locals do it? Should we restrict Caucasian from doing the studies?

I get that a lot of white people have done a ton of terrible things but can we please stop saying that any portrayal of a white person is racist?
 
No Depth

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,315
Geist said:
but at the heart of it he's a white guy who's going to other countries and taking various cultures' important historical artifacts.
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But they belong in a museum!

Actually in most cases, Indy is actually making attempts to recover stolen artifacts from villainous factions or race them in a bid to protect them. The destruction of property isn't really often on him, but collateral damage from the bad guys responding with blunt force. (Opening of Raiders possibly being an exception as the villain appears only after he silently stole the artifact and set off the traps)

Drake on the other hand is more often directly responsible for the destructive path. Not always, but he is purely in it for profit, which differs from Indy's motive.
 
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El Bombastico

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,067
Nerdyone said:
At what point is any legitimate archeological studies allowed to be done then? Can only the locals do it? Should we restrict Caucasian from doing the studies?

I get that a lot of white people have done a ton of terrible things but can we please stop saying that any portrayal of a white person is racist?
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Bruh, that's not what's going on and you know it.

As for your first point, at the very least give the locals a say in whether they want you sticking your nose around a potentially sacred/culturally important place.
 
OP
OP
Geist

Geist

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Oct 25, 2017
4,580
Nerdyone said:
At what point is any legitimate archeological studies allowed to be done then? Can only the locals do it? Should we restrict Caucasian from doing the studies?

I get that a lot of white people have done a ton of terrible things but can we please stop saying that any portrayal of a white person is racist?
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I think a big problem is that they only make it look like white people (or at least people from western countries) can be Archaeologists. There were archaeologists in Egypt who were Egyptian during the time period.

Rum Diet said:
You talk about how ISIS did this exact thing IRL and then go throw in 'imperialistic white male' in there to talk about a fantasy character.

I just don't know why this type of thing is so prevalent around here.
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The point was that ISIS was rightfully condemned by the whole world and characters like Nathan Drake and Indiana Jones are portrayed as heroic for causing similar destruction.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Jan 9, 2018
63
Yes. They can be fun adventure romps and historical records of the ingrained cultural attitudes and beliefs of the time.
 
Nerdyone

Nerdyone

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Oct 28, 2017
1,723
BR2049 said:
OP, you are right.

And I would put James Bond up there as well.
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James Bond has a ton of modern day issues but being white isn't at the top.

In all seriousness, does GAF just want all media to have only non-Caucasians to never be the star in media? Does all media need equal representation of minorities or can it ever match the reality that sometimes people don't have minority friends?
 
El Bombastico

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,067
Nerdyone said:
James Bond has a ton of modern day issues but being white isn't at the top.
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You're never read the books, have you?

Rum Diet said:
But it kind of is when the OP starts off the whole thing with the 'white male' negative narrative which is ironic considering that archeology was mainly white guys digging up and preserving ancient cultural artifacts for the longest time lol
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By "digging up and preserving" you mean "stealing and taking back their home countries and FUCK what the locals think about it" right?

Edit: and yeah, OP, you could've had a great topic here but you ruined it with your bullshit ISIS connection.
 
Rum Diet

Rum Diet

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Oct 25, 2017
320
Geist said:
The point was that ISIS was rightfully condemned by the whole world and characters like Nathan Drake and Indiana Jones are portrayed as heroic for causing similar destruction.
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Ok, You're talking about a movie/video game, so were you trying to be cheeky? or just flat out inflammatory?
 
OP
OP
Geist

Geist

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,580
UltraMav said:
Is this some sort of GAF/Era satire or meta commentary?
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Don't let me stop you from enjoying movies or games. I enjoy them too.

Rum Diet said:
Ok, You're talking about a movie/video game, so were you trying to be cheeky? or just flat out inflammatory?
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You don't need to make it out to be anything more than the most recent newsworthy example of the destruction of a historical building. That's all I meant by it.
 
Opto

Opto

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Oct 28, 2017
4,546
You can have people from the pilfered cultures stealing it back. Instead of raiding tombs, you're raiding European museums.
 
Bor Gullet

Bor Gullet

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12,399
Xiaomi said:
I think Raiders is actually a pretty good indictment of imperialism and the white male urge to control and acquire just for the sake of it. I mean, Indy could have stopped the Nazis and their plan with his rocket launcher if he hadn't wanted to acquire the ark for his own self-aggrandizement. He's flawed and not the hero he presents himself as. And in the end the bigger imperialists (the "top men") take away his prize anyway.

In The Last Crusade, though? Yeah he straight up stole the Cross of Coronado and the movie portrays him as a hero for doing so.
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He stole the Cross of Coronado from the thieves. He straight up said it belongs in a museum.

Though yes, Indy is characterized a bit differently in Last Crusade. That film turns him into a boy scout.
 
Daitokuji

Daitokuji

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Oct 27, 2017
2,602
Ironically the "it belongs in a museum" was supposed to be him being the good guy, but that means stealing from natives and sending their treasures off to Euro-American cities.

Though I thought in the case of not blowing up the Ark, it's because he wanted to know what was inside it and he didn't want to destroy such a valuable piece of history.
 
Nerdyone

Nerdyone

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,723
Geist said:
I think a big problem is that they only make it look like white people (or at least people from western countries) can be Archaeologists. There were archaeologists in Egypt who were Egyptian during the time period.


The point was that ISIS was rightfully condemned by the whole world and characters like Nathan Drake and Indiana Jones are portrayed as heroic for causing similar destruction.
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So the movie needs to point that out? The movie is about Indiana Jones, an American archeologist and adventure nits not a documentary about society

I think some people want any movie that doesn't have equal representation to be either just scrubbed from history or altered in some way.

This entire rehashing of all media that doesn't meet current political standards is tiring. You can like something even if views have changed.

I'm all for minority's getting more recognition and I don't agree with using a white actor over a minority so they can whitewash a film. But let's stop trying to make everything political. Indiana Jones is a pulp movie and is not a white savior. Even Temple of Doom
 
spam musubi

spam musubi

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Oct 25, 2017
9,381
Nerdyone said:
The moral of Indiana Jones is that Nazis are bad and don't fuck with god. Stop trying to make everything over complicated or racial. The whole premise is based off of pulp movies (one in particular that eludes me) and fiction
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You seem really upset about this. There's what a creator explicitly envisions when making the work, but there's also what that work says about the time it was made in and the thoughts of the creator that weren't explicit. For example, you can look at a lot of post-9/11 action blockbusters. Even though they don't explicitly contain themes written to be jingoistic and patriotic, they often end up being so because that was the spirit of the time they were written in. Politics are an inherent part of everything and just because you are not aware of this or are wilfully trying to stick your head in the sand doesn't mean they go away. Even explicitly being against displaying politics is a political statement.
 
Bor Gullet

Bor Gullet

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Oct 27, 2017
12,399
Nerdyone said:
So the movie needs to point that out? The movie is about Indiana Jones, an American archeologist and adventure nits not a documentary about society

I think some people want any movie that doesn't have equal representation to be either just scrubbed from history or altered in some way.

This entire rehashing of all media that doesn't meet current political standards is tiring. You can like something even if views have changed.

I'm all for minority's getting more recognition and I don't agree with using a white actor over a minority so they can whitewash a film. But let's stop trying to make everything political. Indiana Jones is a pulp movie and is not a white savior. Even Temple of Doom
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Temple of Doom is actually closest in spirit to the 30's pulp serial adventure.
 
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