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Cheesebu

Wrong About Cheese
Member
Sep 21, 2020
6,181
I hope this is not out of line, but I don't want to misrepresent the raw feelings people had at that time. I don't want to relitigate the verdict, I simply want to help him understand why people felt this way.

So here is what happened. We were chilling watching Blackish and this scene came on:



My buddy didn't even get the joke. After like 10 seconds he asked me "Were black people actually happy when that happened?" I tried to explain a little bit. I brought up Rodney King, the LA riots, the absolute shit job by the LAPD investigators, the fact that a white celebrity in his situation would have walked without a sweat, and the overt racism from Mark Fuhrman.

At some point I just felt like I wasn't qualified to completely cover the situation, and I'm not. I think I know the reasons, but not the actual feelings.

I'm sorry to ask people of color to step in and educate both me and him, but when I google for stories either from the time or even more recent, they are quite abstract and many of them come from people who were not happy with the verdict.

Does anyone who possibly lived through that or feels like they have a good grasp on it want to help? He isn't being rude or judgmental, but I really don't want to purport to understand the complete situation.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,541
Richmond, VA
I can't speak to why, but I watched the verdict on a giant projection screen tv at the mall food court and the reaction was EXACTLY like that clip.
 

Psamtik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,880
I'm old enough to remember O.J. hysteria (and have the POGs to prove it) and too young for Claus von Bülow, but I definitely remember comparisons being made between the two at the time.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,257
Because we finally got one over on the justice system.

When you constantly see people get beaten by police, arrested for crimes they didn't commit, sentenced for crimes they didn't commit, or given longer sentences than white people who did the same exact crime, having someone who was black so blatantly beat a system heavily tilted in the favor of convicting another black person allowed a community to live vicariously through slipping away from systemic racism relatively unscathed.

Everyone knew his ass was guilty, but people wanted him to get away with it out of spite.
 
OP
OP
Cheesebu

Cheesebu

Wrong About Cheese
Member
Sep 21, 2020
6,181
I'm old enough to remember O.J. hysteria (and have the POGs to prove it) and too young for Claus von Bülow, but I definitely remember comparisons being made between the two at the time.
Holy shit, did you have the OJ "Dream Team" POGs from Mad Magazine? Those were like my most treasured set at that time.
 

WetWaffle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,604
Systemic racism. We were so fed up with being unfairly treated by the court system that I'm not surprised some celebrated OJs release despite being guilty.
 

DrForester

Mod of the Year 2006
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,713
I remember taking a law class with an old white professor and he talked about this case. In a surprise twist he absolutely agreed with the jury's verdict because of how terrible a job the prosecution did.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,441
You need the context. Even amongst those that felt that he was guilty, this was a situation of a POC on trial for something in the same world 3 years after we watched White America have the same cheery moment when the Rodney King verdict came back with an aquittal despite being on damn camera for the world to see. Decades and decades of POC being held responsible while on the other side of the tracks, accountability was sporadic if not completely absent in many high profile cases involving anything remotely approaching a 'race' factor.

There were people wanting it for vindictive/revenge reasons, and people naieve enough to think that actual change might happen if the corrupt judicial system finally 'hit home' for much of white america.

But whatever the individuals reason, it was usually rooted in how the country handled these issues in its past. A lot of anger, hatred and small hopes for change were swirling around the people I knew. Think of it the way that you do when people say "Republicans will eventually stop voting in Republicans once they lose their shirts, and their pension... and their homes, and their air conditioning and their jobs etc etc".... Then they lost all that and it never changed? Many were in that hopeful state that something that shocking would jolt people into wanting to fix the criminal justice system.

But instead, well...
 

Wamapoke

Member
Apr 11, 2018
2,726
Get them to watch OJ: Made in America if they have an interest in it. Is a great documentary that makes you understand how people can hate LAPD so much it would make them cheer on such an embarrassing moment for them.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,986
www.espn.com

O.J.: Made in America - Stream the Film on Watch ESPN - ESPN

Stream the film O.J.: Made in America on Watch ESPN. It is the defining cultural tale of modern America - a saga of race, celebrity, media, violence, and the criminal justice system. Winner of the Academy Award for Best Documentary.

This is a fantastic documentary which goes into a lot of it. Highly recommended.
Came here to post this. I honestly think this is one of the most important documentaries of our time. It's not just the trial-it's everything that led up to it surrounding it.
 

John Caboose

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,200
Sweden
www.espn.com

O.J.: Made in America - Stream the Film on Watch ESPN - ESPN

Stream the film O.J.: Made in America on Watch ESPN. It is the defining cultural tale of modern America - a saga of race, celebrity, media, violence, and the criminal justice system. Winner of the Academy Award for Best Documentary.

This is a fantastic documentary which goes into a lot of it. Highly recommended.

I've seen this twice and as a complete outsider it felt like it gave me a lot of insight into the whole thing and the perspectives involved.
 
OP
OP
Cheesebu

Cheesebu

Wrong About Cheese
Member
Sep 21, 2020
6,181
Because we finally got one over on the justice system.

When you constantly see people get beaten by police, arrested for crimes they didn't commit, sentenced for crimes they didn't commit, or given longer sentences than white people who did the same exact crime, having someone who was black so blatantly beat a system heavily tilted in the favor of convicting another black person allowed a community to live vicariously through slipping away from systemic racism relatively unscathed.

Everyone knew his ass was guilty, but people wanted him to get away with it out of spite.
You need the context. Even amongst those that felt that he was guilty, this was a situation of a POC on trial for something in the same world 3 years after we watched White America have the same cheery moment when the Rodney King verdict came back with an aquittal despite being on damn camera for the world to see. Decades and decades of POC being held responsible while on the other side of the tracks, accountability was sporadic if not completely absent in many high profile cases involving anything remotely approaching a 'race' factor.

There were people wanting it for vindictive/revenge reasons, and people naieve enough to think that actual change might happen if the corrupt judicial system finally 'hit home' for much of white america.

But whatever the individuals reason, it was usually rooted in how the country handled these issues in its past. A lot of anger, hatred and small hopes for change were swirling around the people I knew. Think of it the way that you do when people say "Republicans will eventually stop voting in Republicans once they lose their shirts, and their pension... and their homes, and their air conditioning and their jobs etc etc".... Then they lost all that and it never changed? Many were in that hopeful state that something that shocking would jolt people into wanting to fix the criminal justice system.

But instead, well...
Thank you, these are very good explanations with more flavor than I was prepared to give.
I remember taking a law class with an old white professor and he talked about this case. In a surprise twist he absolutely agreed with the jury's verdict because of how terrible a job the prosecution did.
This is exactly how I felt despite being 11 years old at the time. I was reading crime novels by John Grisham and other writers, I watched the entire case on TV and my parents helped explain it, and at the end of the day that's how I felt. He probably did it but their entire case was circumstantial and they botched the investigation literally from the jump.

I was at my girlfriends house when they read the verdict and they lost their fucking minds. I didn't dare share my thoughts with them. Just ate my burger and kept my mouth shut lmao. Despite that, the adults in my family definitely colored my opinion at the time. They were so fucking mad that it made me doubt my initial judgement of the evidence.
www.espn.com

O.J.: Made in America - Stream the Film on Watch ESPN - ESPN

Stream the film O.J.: Made in America on Watch ESPN. It is the defining cultural tale of modern America - a saga of race, celebrity, media, violence, and the criminal justice system. Winner of the Academy Award for Best Documentary.

This is a fantastic documentary which goes into a lot of it. Highly recommended.


Thank you, I'll give this a watch for sure and recommend it to him.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,853
I'm not sure being a nebulous PoC will give you the exact insight on why OJ's verdict was celebrated by black people.

This is a situation where you're better off just asking black folk directly.
 

djplaeskool

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,788
www.espn.com

O.J.: Made in America - Stream the Film on Watch ESPN - ESPN

Stream the film O.J.: Made in America on Watch ESPN. It is the defining cultural tale of modern America - a saga of race, celebrity, media, violence, and the criminal justice system. Winner of the Academy Award for Best Documentary.

This is a fantastic documentary which goes into a lot of it. Highly recommended.

This right here.
There's a lot of unspoken racial animus in this country, and certain events sort of highlight the division.
The OJ Trial was one of those events, and it was especially jarring, as this point in the 90s had an undercurrent of a sort of naive post-racialism.
Despite having clung to the high-life after his professional career, OJ was still a hero to many, and his defense found success in targetting police conduct and the wider systems of policing in the pursuit of his acquittal. They played to the court of public opinion just as much as they did the actual court.
 
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OP
Cheesebu

Cheesebu

Wrong About Cheese
Member
Sep 21, 2020
6,181
I'm not sure being a nebulous PoC will give you the exact insight on why OJ's verdict was celebrated by black people.

This is a situation where you're better off just asking black folk directly.
I feel you, I just didn't want to leave out people who felt the same way after being oppressed by the same system even if there were different levels to that oppression.

I think there were definitely others especially in LA that were lockstep with the feeling but I didn't mean to imply that it was a popular opinion from other POC.
 

THE210

Member
Nov 30, 2017
1,546
Despite all the proclamations of OJ's guilt it still needed to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I watched nearly the entire trial and can confidently say the DA's case was terrible. IMO LAPD clearly tampered with evidence and the DA wasn't great at presenting the case.
People also have to remember everything known to the general public was not presented at trial. I recall some fiber evidence that would have been devastating to OJ was excluded. I also remember the level of disrespect shown to this jury was unbelievable.
 

Night

Late to the party
Member
Nov 1, 2017
5,124
Clearwater, FL
If he did it and got off I don't think getting one over on the LAPD is worth someone's killer not facing justice. It's more like getting one over on society.
 

Deleted member 2533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
There was before the internet and at the beginning of the 24h news cycle, given the reputation of the LAPD, it was actually conceivable that OJ was framed. Remember that OJ was a well-liked celebrity and domestic violence wasn't something people associated with him either.

I really don't think it was like, "this violent black dude definitely killed his ex wife and her partner, but fuck the police so we're celebrating him."

Think how many people believe they conspiracy that the 2020 US election was stolen. People believed a conspiracy that OJ was railroaded.

*I am a caucasian Canadian who was in Jr. High when the trial happened.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,082
If he did it and got off I don't think getting one over on the LAPD is worth someone's killer not facing justice. It's more like getting one over on society.
For what it's worth, he only got off of the criminal charge. He was found liable for $33 million for wrongful death, although he's avoided paying much of that. One of the victims' families was also awarded publishing rights to OJ Simpsons' book.
 

thefro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,996
Not a person of color, but DNA matching for court cases was still pretty new technology and not something people understood or fully trusted.

It was pretty plausible to me as a kid that the LAPD could have planted blood/bungled the test/cross-contaminated stuff with OJ's blood.

Simpson's lawyers/expert witnesses were excellent and the prosecution screwed up a lot.
 

Deleted member 69501

User requested account closure
Banned
May 16, 2020
1,368
We didn't have a choice; OJ was the only example at the time of someone committing a high profile and obvious crime. He was the only one people could vicariously "get away with it" through.


Kinda tough when the guy being embraced probably did it and doesn't care about your community but I don't want to derail the thread.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,396
Denver, CO
I remember my best friend in HS—Richard; big black guy—saying in the food court after the verdict dropped, "If they would've convicted the cops who beat Rodney King, they would've convicted OJ." Something to that effect. FWIW I think he was right on.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,349
New York
Kinda tough when the guy being embraced probably did it and doesn't care about your community but I don't want to derail the thread.

It wasn't about him. It's about the fact that it took THAT for a LOT of white people to be like "I think our justice system might have some serious flaws! I can't believe the system would give preferential treatment to someone based on their status!"

And for me at least it was like "Word? That got you tight? Lemme tell you about Viola Liuzzo
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,577
In short, and as crassly as possible, he beat the system; A feat that a lot of Black Americans couldn't fathom (most still can't). I don't think there's anyone out there that thought that he was innocent, but the systematic racism revolving around the California government, the LAPD, the FBI, the DEA, the FTA....it was enough to make people champion someone who was so embarrassingly guilty.

A bad guy got one over on the bad guys.
 

Deleted member 69501

User requested account closure
Banned
May 16, 2020
1,368
Kinda like rich New York ass Trump representing poor religious working class white people. At the end of the day, sometimes people just want a tick in the win column

Yup I totally agree.

It wasn't about him. It's about the fact that it took THAT for a LOT of white people to be like "I think our justice system might have some serious flaws! I can't believe the system would give preferential treatment to someone based on their status!"
I think upon reflection that is the conclusion many have drawn but in the moment ppl in the black community did think he was innocent. Kinda like how certain ppl have a hard time believing trump to be anything but a crazy insurrectionist..


The embodiment of "deliberately missing the point" in post form.

I legit have no idea what you're talking about
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,382
Not black, but a significant portion of my class I was in when it was announced (highschool) thought it was the right verdict.

The corrupt and overtly racist police gave a ton of room for "reasonable doubt" in that case at the time. If he were convicted, it would have looked like another black man being railroaded by a racist system.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,173
Gentrified Brooklyn
If we (black folks) got rich enough, laws wouldn't matter to us too. That self serving capitalism 'meritocracy' would mean if we were rich/and or famous enough life would be peachy even if we stabbed two people to death.

As someone said earlier, the fact a bunch of white Americans had a 'What, the system has flaws?!?' was icing on the take.
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434
Black man beating an incredibly racist police department and legal system.

Of course now everyone knows he did that shit🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
I was in grade school when OJ was found not guilty, it was a major news story and for reference, I grew up on a Native Reservation, it's about half white half native and I remember a few Natives were celebrating when OJ was found not guilty and I was really offended by that, of course not really having any clue about the broader historical context at the time. It makes a lot more sense now of course.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832


On October 3, 1995, an estimated 150 million people stopped what they were doing to witness the televised verdict of the O.J. Simpson trial. For more than a year, the O.J. saga transfixed the nation and dominated the public imagination. Ten years later, veteran FRONTLINE producer Ofra Bikel revisits the "perfect storm" that was the O.J. Simpson trial. Through extensive interviews with the defense, prosecution and journalists, FRONTLINE explores the verdict -- which, more than any other in recent history, measured the difference between being white and black in America.

What began as a double homicide near Santa Monica, Calif., immediately became a media mega-story that would come to be known as the "trial of the century." FRONTLINE quickly connects the events leading to the verdict: the slow-speed chase, the "Dream Team" of defense lawyers, the bloody gloves, and the Fuhrman tapes.

In the 372 days that the trial lasted, there was nothing that wasn't recorded, discussed and analyzed on television. The media frenzy spread from the National Enquirer to The New York Times, from burgeoning cable networks like CNN to ABC's Nightline. "One of the great ironies of the trial was that the National Enquirer reminded us what good, basic journalism is about," said Nightline anchor Ted Koppel. Koppel adds about Nightline coverage, "I felt a certain amount of embarrassment about doing it on a regular basis ... every time we did O.J. the ratings went up 10 percent." And as it turned out, the case would have a lasting impact on American media.

Public opinion polls showed that America was quickly polarized along racial lines. "Most white Americans believed Simpson was obviously guilty before the trial ever started [and] most white Americans feared that the defense would do something unethical and use racism to get a predominantly African American jury to acquit an obviously guilty defendant," says UCLA law professor and former ABC News consultant, Peter Arenella.

When defense attorney Johnnie Cochran urged the jury to consider Detective Fuhrman's racism in making their decision, Fred Goldman, Ron Goldman's father, was enraged. "[Cochran] suggests that racism ought to be the most important thing that anyone of us ought to listen to in this court ... and set his murdering client free," the distraught father cried at a press conference.

FRONTLINE visits Marc Watts, who was a correspondent with CNN at the time and one of the few African Americans covering the trial. "[In] the trial, everything is about race. Black people deal with race everyday. Whites who said it's not a trial about race speak that way because they haven't been on the receiving end of injustices at the hands of a white person," said Watts.

The program also examines the aftermath of the verdict and the explosive reaction that erupted along racial lines: black men and women celebrating victory in the streets while outraged white Americans decried a miscarriage of justice. "O.J. was bigger than his body," explains University of Pennsylvania professor Michael Eric Dyson. "O.J. was a term that represented every black person that ever got beat up by the criminal justice system." "

This was taken personally by whites in America in a way that no other case ever affected them," says Alan Dershowitz, professor of law at Harvard University. In fact, white people from all walks of life vilified the defense team and jury as never before, forgetting what the American justice system is all about. "Tragically, the American public doesn't seem to understand the role of the defense counsel ... a defense counsel's ethical role is to make the prosecution satisfy that burden of proof," says Professor Arenella. As for the predominantly African American jury, which bore the brunt of white America's anger, Arenella adds, "Several of the jurors explained afterward that they suspected Mr. Simpson was guilty but they weren't shown it beyond a reasonable doubt. That's an action and a comment of a juror that understands their responsibility and is doing their job."

FRONTLINE visits a barbershop in downtown Los Angeles where, 10 years later, none of the customers believes that O.J. Simpson was innocent. But they agree on the fact that the police behaved as they've come to expect. "They framed a guilty man -- that's all it was," says the barber. A customer adds, "I hope that Negroes learn that no matter how high you ascend and how much money you make or how white the woman is, you [are] still a nigger in America."

Ofra Bikel's documentary memorializes the heartache, confusion and tension released by the O.J. verdict and explores some of its lasting impact. As The New Yorker's Jeffrey Toobin tells FRONTLINE, "The only reason that we will care about O.J. Simpson 10 years after, 20 years after, is what it told us about race in this country."