Thanks for the explanation, I get you. But I don't really agree with everything. As I've personally been really into story and dialogue heavy games already on the early 90's. Like can either of you say why Full Throttle I shared as an example doesnt' fit the bill? As it even has the credits rolling at the start like MGS did.
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Can somebody explain to me the genius of Hideo Kojima?
- Thread starter dharmapolice
- Start date
The quality of Kojima's work is precisely the reason games were able to evolve so quickly into what they are today.
Because MGS did it so effortlessly, it raised the bar while providing a blueprint for how a cinematic interactive experience can capture the imagination and hearts of it's players even if you have a shadow for a face.
Sure it would have happened eventually, But how long would we have had to wait?
Take 3D games for instance... They were inevitable and they had many people failing at creating something fun or even playable. There were some successes, but everyone still preferred moving a character in 2D than 3D.
Then Miyamoto not only shows them how to properly move and JUMP with Mario in 3D...
...He also gives Link a targeting system so he can properly attack the enemies in front of him.
Now, because of his contributions, other developers know the answer to the problem, they now have a base to start from and find ways to build off of what they were struggling with for so long.
You can say the systems or techniques made in the past would have come up eventually because you are enjoying the evolution of those systems. Some of us older gamers know the struggle was real for developers trying to handle not only how to tell a story, but just how to move the character. Saying it's inevitable is a no brainer because everyone in gaming was trying to figure it out. What's amazing is that not only did someone figure it out (out of hundreds of developers), they figured it out so well that you don't see how it could have been done any other way. Yet at the time, no one came close to providing the same feeling or level of polish as the pioneers did until AFTER they showed everyone how it's done.
As inevitable as something may seem it still takes hard work to realize, and not to take anything away from PDS, but MGS was on another level as a whole. When people bring up the cinematic nature of MGS. They aren't talking about JUST the cutscenes. As amazing presented as they were for the time players remember the entire game giving them that cinematic feeling of being IN a spy movie. Not simply playing a game.
As inevitable as something may seem, it still takes hard work to realize. Not trying to take anything away from PDS, but MGS was an entirely different beast that did so many things right in an era were games were trying to figure out the newly created 3rd dimension.
When people bring up the cinematic nature of MGS, they aren't talking about JUST the cutscenes. It's the pacing, the gameplay scenarios, the radio drama, all it's parts that was the result of a lot of people's hard work, but also a single man's clear vision of a different type of game that made you feel like you are in a high stakes spy movie, and not just playing a video game.
There was cinematic point and click adventure games long before MGS1, heck Kojima's own Snatcher also fit the bill I guess but the use of in-game graphics and use of camera to create an atmosphere unlike any other game at the time and actually caring about a story and characters in an action-adventure game on the original PlayStation was crazy.
I love Full Throttle, just for the record and played a lot of p&c games back in the late 90s/early 2000s on PC. MGS1 still felt like a massive change from anything before it. Schafer's p&c games felt closer to interactive cartoons (Day of the Tentacle) and comic books, Kojima's always gone more for the cinematic style more (aside from Policenauts, which was like an interactive anime game).
I had the mindset that souls fanatics are too much , but after reading this read, boy. There's just no comparison. I never knew God like Kojima sama is viewed like that. He ain't genius, he's just a person with a talent backed by even more talented teams he's working with. He's overindulgence is obnoxious and his games are flawed as fuck and the story part of is full of bad overdrawn exposition and just straight up bad dialogue
Overall, his games really stand out during the Playstation 1 and Playstation 2 era. But the way he used the Playstation hardware to mess with the player during the Psycho Mantis fight in MGS is still unparalleled to me. Sadly I haven't really been a fan since MGS4.
I love the man but the love is dissapearing. I think he is one of the great gaming minds but took it just way to far with MGS4/5. I blame him for taking out the heart of the series in 5.
The game had nothing to do with MGS and it was a huge dissapointment for me as a fan.
And now we have DS, I will buy it but i expect it to be a freakshow that only a few can follow
The game had nothing to do with MGS and it was a huge dissapointment for me as a fan.
And now we have DS, I will buy it but i expect it to be a freakshow that only a few can follow
No, I can't. I can't after an entire game where having diarrhea is a character trait that saves the day. Games where nonsense is so profound it is probably a secret sign to the Elder Things to invade, games where the sway of a female character's ass is a plot point. I can't...Kojima is an awful writer, but a lot of his games are great in spite of him.
He convinced Sony to gave him a budget of a triple AAA title with Hollywood actors to make a SP game about walking.
If that's not genius, I don't know what it is.
If that's not genius, I don't know what it is.
Sure, as I said in my original post too, I do really appreciate the cinematic qualities in MGS. But hearing that proper cinematic storytelling (or high quality voice acting) started there, always rubs me the wrong way. As it overlooks some absolute gems that came before it (or around the same time), games that deserve recognition and praise just like MGS does. I can definitely acknowledge MGS importance on consoles specifically in this regard. I see it like with Halo and online, bit of old news to PC folk but still a big deal on consoles specifically. This is not to say that I wouldn't have been impressed by MGS when I played, I definitely was. I wouldn't have replayed it so many times if I didn't, I even played Twin Snakes. But likewise games before it had already impressed me in similar ways. It was more the gimmicks like Psycho Mantis reading the memory card and "moving" my PS controller that felt like something cool I hadn't experienced before. And I'm happy Kojima has continued to add clever stuff like that in his games later too, in example adjusting the date on the system to kill The End. But when it comes to (cinematic) storytelling in games, MGS was absolutely big part of the evolution, but not nearly the beginning.
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What people forget to mention and I said something similar in my post is that the gameplay also complimented the story with it's cinematic gameplay scenarios you normally see in cutscenes (escape the cell, resist the torture, scale a building, etc...) that helped bridge the gap between cutscene and gameplay giving the player a sense that they were actually in a movie, not just watching it.
Suffice to say, without adding to the vitriol in this thread, that Kojima offers unique experiences which I could not have imagined anyone else thinking of.
The crazy boss fights, the style, the characters, the engaging AI system, overall attention to detail and general polish.
The crazy boss fights, the style, the characters, the engaging AI system, overall attention to detail and general polish.
Kojima games are simultaneously wacky, earnest, mechanically deep, and almost always attempt to say something meaningful thematically.
I don't know that he always sticks the landing, but he tries to blend things in a manner that I don't think I've seen any other game creator do.
The projects he works on definitely have a distinct touch.
I would say thats where the genius of Kojima is, regardless of the hype or any of that other stuff.
He is willing to go to strange places that many other high profile game designers aren't.
I don't know that he always sticks the landing, but he tries to blend things in a manner that I don't think I've seen any other game creator do.
The projects he works on definitely have a distinct touch.
I would say thats where the genius of Kojima is, regardless of the hype or any of that other stuff.
He is willing to go to strange places that many other high profile game designers aren't.
Right. As I said in my earlier post I can see that Half Life and Soul Reaver were two other examples that were out at the same time that were also big game changers for me. There is a big different going from some of those 2D p&c plains to more interactive cinematic worlds like Soul Reaver and MGS1 provided, especially on console. Blade Runner PC was another early example of a great "interactive movie" in the p&c genre. Half Life 1 was also incredibly influential towards telling stories from the First Person perspective and came out the same year as MGS1 too.
Yeah that's another big part of why it's still my favourite Metal Gear, everything just fit together so seamlessly between story and gameplay that I don't think Kojima and his team ever got the right balance for ever again. Cutscene length was just right, the dialogue was better translated than later games and everything was so tight and put together so well, the transition between game cutscenes, codec and boss battles all had that synergy that just connected together. Plus I just love the atmosphere of the first Metal Gear Solid.
I don't think it's that hyperbolic, or at least I don't think it's any more hyperbolic than someone naming any other game the best 3D gameplay of all time.
Full Throttle is an amazing game. But it's a bad example in this instance. A better example to use is The Dug & Another World. You're absolutely correct that MGS1 wasn't the first game to have great voice acting and Cinematic presentation. another world was the first). But it was the first to blend it all together in a console videogame where it has a big gameplay component to it. (FT and the Dug are P&T. storytelling and VA are major components for it, and Another World didn't have VA and its gameplay relied on trial and error).
Oh yeah, Another World is absolutely a classic as far as cinematic platformers go. Definitely made an impression on me, even though I kinda remember struggling with the game for some reason. Probably the trial and error which you mention. I would also call the part with the truck and the plane at the end of Full Throttle a playable cinematic set piece (Uncharted style). Even though it relied on the same point & click mechanics as the rest of the game, you could actually fail it and die too. I disliked the destruction derby section gameplay-wise, but it does few quick cinematc cuts mid gameplay to deliver bits of dialogue, show the different characters in their cars and Ripburger at the audience. But yeah I didn't bring up Full Throttle for being first, just brought it up being before MGS and excelling in some of the qualities MGS has been claimed to pioneer in this thread and others. Nonetheless MGS also did cinematic storytelling really well and is an influential game, no doubt about it.
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OP
OP
I will post a detailed update. I am a child of the SNES into PS1 Era, so I can handle polygonal jank. MGS is sadly just a longstanding blindspot in my journey.
Not sure it's been linked before, but this recent article is a really good picture into how/why mgs1 is so significant -- and similar cases could be made for all of his subsequent games. https://kotaku.com/metal-gear-solid-retrospective-you-enjoy-all-the-killi-1835280265 (there are articles in that series for the first two metal gear games, too)
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Play MGS1 and 2, specially 2, for the story, and remember this game (MGS2) is 18 years old.
Then you'll understand.
Then you'll understand.
Here is an example of a little thing Kojima does that takes his games to another level.
(and this is someone who just about hates MGSV)
So, nice song choice right... not only does the lyrics work somewhat for the story but it has a very interesting sound and fits the time period
however
Kojima is a big David Bowie fan so why did he not use the original David Bowie version and instead use a later less popular cover?
it has an extremely strong connection to what you find out at the very end of the game
(and this is someone who just about hates MGSV)
So, nice song choice right... not only does the lyrics work somewhat for the story but it has a very interesting sound and fits the time period
however
Kojima is a big David Bowie fan so why did he not use the original David Bowie version and instead use a later less popular cover?
it has an extremely strong connection to what you find out at the very end of the game
not being the original Big Boss
Why is everything a zero sum game? He's displayed brilliance at times and he's fumbled a little. He's had some great highs (Snatcher) and he's had some mediocrity (Peace Walker) but he's never really been bad. And that's pretty commendable. Nobody tell Geoff Keighley.