samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Honestly I'm going to blame centrism here. If we went whole hog anarcho capitalism corps would've built it just by flaunting regulations and overexploiting workers. If we went whole hog command economy the state would've just eminent domained the NIMBYs. Wealth stratification + regulatory capture is the worst of both (deregulated free market/state fiat) worlds. Gets nothing done AND people are miserable.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
America costs a lot.

Los Angeles Purple Line Extension
9 miles
$930 million


That's expensive af. It will only get worse.
 
OP
OP
Armadilo

Armadilo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,877
They didn't start in SF bc the NIMBY situation is out of control around here. Lawsuits out the wazoo. The rationale was "well let's start where it's easiest to get going and then once it's under way there's no way they can stop us!".

Except I'm not sure they exactly thought through how "So you're spending billions to build a train from Merced to Bakersfield?" was going to look.
Imagine going from nowhere to nowhere, this thing has a high possibility of going out of business as soon as it gets completed, so much money will be used to maintain this thing and nobody using it
 

Skel1ingt0n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,933
All high speed rail in america is a scam dude to land rights problems


Yup. I vividly remember this being discussed more than a decade ago and there was a lot of finger waving at anyone who wasn't entirely onboard, telling them they lacked imagination or the classic "fine, let perfect be the blocker of good" nonsense. This was absolutely doomed from the very start. I'm all for better public transportation, and taxes that really do help infrastructure. But this was nonsense from the start - the cost of the land was probably at its absolute best for something like this when it came to fruition (right after the 2008 crash). Today? El oh el.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,164
Honestly I'm going to blame centrism here. If we went whole hog anarcho capitalism corps would've built it just by flaunting regulations and overexploiting workers. If we went whole hog command economy the state would've just eminent domained the NIMBYs. Wealth stratification + regulatory capture is the worst of both (deregulated free market/state fiat) worlds. Gets nothing done AND people are miserable.
Japan's Shinkansen train is completely private run and profitable. I honestly wouldn't mind a private company just doing it at this point. They'd just have to own the buildings and businesses they run the train out of (Salesforce HSR?) lmao.

www.tokyoreview.net

Lessons from Railway Privatization in Japan – Tokyo Review

Rail privatization is controversial elsewhere, but many of Japan's privatized JR operators are profitable and efficient. What did they do differently?

Also, Vegas to LA would be huge just because of hangovers + drunk people.
 

Spoit

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,092
There was a discussion on why this failed in this week's Lovett or Leave it, but I'm too lazy to go and transcribe the bullet points from it
 

StarStorm

"This guy are sick"
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,640
Sad its still not finished after a decade. I wouldn't call it a scam, but NIMBY and the rise of property since the 2008 crash definitely halted this project. Who would use it from Bakersfield to Merced when its done lol? If they extended it later on to LA and SF like they originally planned, I can see more interest in it, but NIMBY again would block it as much as they can. Not only that, the land itself would be expensive AF.

HSR works fine in other countries like the Spain, France, Germany, Japan, China and hell, even in Russia. Probably won't see the California HSR to be done for another decade.
 
OP
OP
Armadilo

Armadilo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,877
Japan's Shinkansen train is completely private run and profitable. I honestly wouldn't mind a private company just doing it at this point. They'd just have to own the buildings and businesses they run the train out of (Salesforce HSR?) lmao.

At this point the California politicians will only try to finish the Central Valley portion out of their own pride and to say that they accomplished something to make up for the billions spent.

I could see some private company completing it but only if the government gives them all the tax breaks possible so that they make profit somehow. But the more likely scenario is that everybody just forgets about it and moves onto the next thing.
 

BolognaOni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
160
Route was a joke, at least in the Bay Area. Oh, just run it right down the SF peninsula through small lots are $1M+ all the way from SF to San Jose. Sure, that will work.

At that point I'm not blaming NIMBYism anymore and rather pointing to a complete and total disregard for politic and economic reality.

The whole thing seemed like a way for consultants to make a lot of money and do nothing of any real substance. Looks like it was a resounding success!
 

Carbon

Deploying the stealth Cruise Missile
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,996
Japan's Shinkansen train is completely private run and profitable. I honestly wouldn't mind a private company just doing it at this point. They'd just have to own the buildings and businesses they run the train out of (Salesforce HSR?) lmao.

www.tokyoreview.net

Lessons from Railway Privatization in Japan – Tokyo Review

Rail privatization is controversial elsewhere, but many of Japan's privatized JR operators are profitable and efficient. What did they do differently?
But was the land originally private and purchased on the open market, or did the government come in and eminent domain it for the company?

Also, Vegas to LA would be huge just because of hangovers + drunk people.
Nevada probably doesn't have the money for their part of it, and CA isn't exactly falling over themselves to help tax money flow out of the state. Unless NV promised to share tax revenue with CA based on ridership (which I can't see them doing), I just don't see the incentive for states to create such a system.
 

Arilian

Member
Oct 29, 2020
2,377
Japan's Shinkansen train is completely private run and profitable. I honestly wouldn't mind a private company just doing it at this point. They'd just have to own the buildings and businesses they run the train out of (Salesforce HSR?) lmao.
I'm not sure it's a useful comparison: it looks like the government paid for the infrastructures before selling part of the system to the private sector.
There are caveats, however. Rail privatization did have costs in Japan. The government took on trillions in long-term JNR debt, putting a ÂĄ14 trillion burden on taxpayers. Privatization also cost tens of thousands of jobs.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,979
JP
But was the land originally private and purchased on the open market, or did the government come in and eminent domain it for the company?

The high speed tracks in Japan make prodigious use of tunnels due to the terrain and therefore avoided having to to do either. Most of the tracks were via uninhabited mountains. However most of the land in urban areas were purchased from private owners.

The Shinkansen had its own hiccups during development. The building costs doubled for instance, and there were tracks built due to political influence rather than economic ones. When the project was first suggested back in the 50s there were a lot of resistance by the airlines. Still, it entirely transformed Japan's landscape, economically and demographically.
 

FrakEarth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,308
Liverpool, UK
There was a documentary on the BBC or something I watched ages ago where they spoke to a few people about the trouble with rail projects and things like hyperloop plans in the US, and they were basically saying for every mile of infrastructure there were exorbitant costs in land purchasing, legal work, materials and labour.. we have the same financial black hole with the HS2 and HS3 projects here in the UK. I think I'm in agreement that governments need to step in and make things easier and cheaper for projects like this. They're probably worth it in the long run - they could change the dynamics and economics of vast geographical areas and generate billions - but the investment and the political will needs to be there to get it done. Sadly a year of remote working skyrocketing will probably only hinder things like this.
 

Lishi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,284
The high speed tracks in Japan make prodigious use of tunnels due to the terrain and therefore avoided having to to do either. Most of the tracks were via uninhabited mountains. However most of the land in urban areas were purchased from private owners.

The Shinkansen had its own hiccups during development. The building costs doubled for instance, and there were tracks built due to political influence rather than economic ones. When the project was first suggested back in the 50s there were a lot of resistance by the airlines. Still, it entirely transformed Japan's landscape, economically and demographically.

Most of the high speed project in the world to to the biggest city of the area.

It's the whole point to make sense.

While not pricy as California the land there are still very very expensive. (and us have of course more money compared to them to spend)

It's the policy.
The successful high speed rail project got build because there was a strong political will to do so.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,979
JP
Most of the high speed project in the world to to the biggest city of the area.

It's the whole point to make sense.

While not pricy as California the land there are still very very expensive. (and us have of course more money compared to them to spend)

It's the policy.
The successful high speed rail project got build because there was a strong political will to do so.

Yes of course, HSR is always going to be a political play, and hopefully backed by sound economics. It's a very long term investment.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
I had a thread documenting the shenanigans over the years.

But if you want to wonder why no civil servant is in jail, read this.

 
Oct 28, 2017
2,979
When they first announced all I could think and all I could hear was "that'd be cool." And thus it was known to be damned.

You'd think there would be a problem when, from day one, every single town or city along the way would say "Give us a stop or don't bother trying to pass through us." Of course, this is my speculation. I don't know much besides it was never gonna happen.

You get that in Europe, too. Some parts of the German ICE system are great (4 hours from Berlin to Munich!) On other routes the train stops in each of five 100k people cities in a 100 km radius, and it feels like you're barely moving. There's some stops in bumfuck nowhere because state level politicians lobbied to get one in their district
(It might be better in more centralized system, like France? I don't know)

Still leagues better than no high-speed rail, obviously
 

BuckRogers

Member
Apr 5, 2018
775
Apparently the cost control on the project is uniquely bad, terrible project management. I heard that some project planners in the Boston-area MBTA were presented with the details of the CAHSR project and specifically its subcontractors, and their response was, "we would have fired these people a decade ago"

As someone who lives around Boston, this is very funny to me given the history of infrastructure projects around here.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,754
I think we all underestimate how much grift there is in building new infrastructure, especially on either coast. Also, the vast majority of the time these projects overestimate their ability to deliver and overcome the various hurdles they will hit along the way (like lawsuit, terrain, weather and material shortages).
 

Arilian

Member
Oct 29, 2020
2,377
(It might be better in more centralized system, like France? I don't know)
Our local elected people are as self-centered as those of other countries 🤓

As an example, in Lorraine, there is a strong rivalry between Nancy (who was the capital of the Lorraine duchy) and Metz (who was the capital of the French region Lorraine). So, the regional airport is right in the middle between both cities. And the Lorraine TGV station is also in the middle of nowhere (it's not even near the train tracks between Nancy and Metz so taking a TGV here require going there by road, either cars or bus), near the airport. TGV also start from train stations inside Nancy and Metz.

But like you said, despite all of that, it's still great to have access to TGV (and I think the German ICE also uses the same tracks and can go from Germany to Paris).

It was especially useful last year, during the first lockdown: many patients were send to hospitals in other regions through special equipped high speed train. Source (in French): https://www.sncf.com/fr/groupe/newsroom/tgv-medicalise-250320

 

Nida

Member
Aug 31, 2019
11,355
Everett, Washington
They are expanding Seattle's light rail to go up to Everett. I think their estimate is 2034, and even then it might get delayed. The price tag is eye-watering. Really wish there was a faster/easier way for them to expand mass transit.

Everett is like 29 miles from Seattle by car. Imagining trying to do that for the state of California is beyond daunting.
 

madstarr12

Member
Jan 25, 2018
2,574
It's not a scam, but it has a huge hurdle of California laws that is keeping this from moving faster.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,935
Japan's Shinkansen train is completely private run and profitable. I honestly wouldn't mind a private company just doing it at this point. They'd just have to own the buildings and businesses they run the train out of (Salesforce HSR?) lmao.

www.tokyoreview.net

Lessons from Railway Privatization in Japan – Tokyo Review

Rail privatization is controversial elsewhere, but many of Japan's privatized JR operators are profitable and efficient. What did they do differently?

Also, Vegas to LA would be huge just because of hangovers + drunk people.
I saw that Amtrak expansion proposal map and CANNOT BELIEVE Vegas to LA doesn't exist yet. At this point they should seriously just hire JR to build a few over here. fuck it.
 

Vigamox

Member
Nov 13, 2017
241
It's a very disappointing, but expected result. Every time after returning from vacation from Japan or Taiwan I wish California had some kind of convenient rail system. Instead I get to sit in traffic for two to three hours a day...
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,315
I saw that Amtrak expansion proposal map and CANNOT BELIEVE Vegas to LA doesn't exist yet. At this point they should seriously just hire JR to build a few over here. fuck it.
There's no direct rail connection between LA and Las Vegas. BNSF goes south of LV through Arizona. Union Pacific has a route there, but it's from Salt Lake City. It wouldn't be difficult to connect existing rail lines to create that direct connection, but Amtrak isn't in the business of building railroads.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,935
There's no direct rail connection between LA and Las Vegas. BNSF goes south of LV through Arizona. Union Pacific has a route there, but it's from Salt Lake City. It wouldn't be difficult to connect existing rail lines to create that direct connection, but Amtrak isn't in the business of building railroads.
Yea, sorry, that's what I was calling out: I noticed it was highlighted as a new route on that map and was like OH MY GOD. Like it's not phenomenal here but I at least can go to Chicago or Milwaukee from Detroit.
 

DeusOcha

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,591
Osaka, Japan
Living in Japan atm and having been born/lived in California, I've no idea how California cant get its shit together for highspeed rail. Mountainous geography my ass, Japan is all fucking mountains.
 

Surakian

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
11,048
Living in Japan atm and having been born/lived in California, I've no idea how California cant get its shit together for highspeed rail. Mountainous geography my ass, Japan is all fucking mountains.

Money, NIMBYs, money, general apathy from the people who would benefit the most from it.

A system of this magnitude would transform the state drastically, but people can't look past the moment to see the potential.
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,315
Yea, sorry, that's what I was calling out: I noticed it was highlighted as a new route on that map and was like OH MY GOD. Like it's not phenomenal here but I at least can go to Chicago or Milwaukee from Detroit.
I'm not sure what they mean by that line though. It could be like a lot of places that aren't directly connected by rail or Amtrak doesn't have trackage rights. Bus service provided by Amtrak. That's how you get from Sacramento to LA now. You take a train as far as Bakersfield and then take a bus over the Grapevine to LA.
 

Surakian

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
11,048
Fixed that for you.

Money is not the problem. High costs are a symptom of ineptitude.

Cost and money go hand in hand. It's ineptitude from a bunch of bad planning but also a bunch of hands reaching into the pot. The counties and cities wanting money for the land the state needs, the contractors, etc.

And y'know...greed.
 
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