Canadian Human rights tribunal rules against Transgender woman over refusal of waxing services

[Westbahnhof]

I would assume they would simply see another doctor, though I can accept the possibility that their body issues would lead to them not discussing the issue at all.
Here in Australia it's not uncommon for doctors to ask their patient if they'd be more comfortable with a doctor of the same sex when it comes to particular issues.

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If only people worked like that and didn't just keep their minor medical problems to themselves instead until they escalate.

You can look at a penis in a particular situation without thinking of it in a sexual way, but that doesn't stop the penis in general from being a sex organ. Genitals are the part of our body we use in sexual reproduction.

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Yeah, but in non-sexual situations, it's very much possible to not see them as sexual in that moment. If you can stop looking at genitals as sexual in a non-sexual environment, the problem with touching them for a professional, non-sexual purpose kinda... goes away.
And I do believe that this is possible.

That was in response to this exchange:
-- Not really. If you don't want to touch a penis, you shouldn't have to touch a penis. Coercing someone into doing that is basically sexual assault.
-- But like I said in my rambling above, that's only if you see genitalia as something inherently sexual.
which I though was an odd response, even if I figured I knew what you were getting at. Responding to this is basically sexual assault with it wouldn't be if we though differently about our genitals is a bad take

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Huh. Okay, I'mma have to explain that one: I'm pretty sure that the person in this exchange originally (before a quick edit perhaps? accidentially?) quoted my rambling. So in that scenario, the exchange started with my rambling about a hypothetical situation where people don't see genitalia as inherently sexual, which (I hope) explains why I was just clarifying my rambling in my next response. The post seemed to misunderstand what I wrote, but since the quoted person is changed now, perhaps it was just a mis-quote?
It's also possible that I just... somehow weirdly thought they were quoting me.
You're right, as it is now, my response in that exchange isn't appropriate.
EDIT: Winny（๑•̀ㅂ•́）و Did you maybe quote me, at first? Or did I just fuck up, and misread severely?

 

[Deleted member 19003]

They are saying that genitals aren't male or female, because they don't decide your gender identity, which is the point of confusion, I think (for those catching bans in here).

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Ah ok, yes. Your genitals definitely don't decide your gender identity. But just to be clear, in this court case and the news articles they are defining a penis and scrotum as male genitalia, which isn't wrong per say. It would only be wrong to then go further and say that male genitalia = man. Which is not the case.

Edit: Was not trying to be sarcastic, apologies if it came across as so! Darn written words -angryfist-

 

[Z-Beat]

If the place doesn't wax penises it doesn't wax penises

And apparently she's shitty so that doesn't help her case

 

[Aurica]

Ah ok, yes. Your genitals definitely don't decide your gender identity.

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???
They literally don't! I think you're getting gender and sex mixed up, which is strange, because you're on this forum. How do you not know a basic aspect of being transgender?
Edit: Incorrectly assumed the poster was being sarcastic.

 

[Deleted member 19003]

???
They literally don't! I think you're getting gender and sex mixed up, which is strange, because you're on this forum. How do you not know a basic aspect of being transgender?

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o_O I was agreeing with your post that they don't.

 

[Westbahnhof]

o_O I was agreeing with your post that they don't.

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I think they thought you were being sarcastic, haha

 

[Deleted member 19003]

I think they thought you were being sarcastic, haha

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XD Sorry!

 

[excelsiorlef]

You can have your Brazilian wax sign advertising outisde your spa without an issue. You start hanging vaginal wax signs and you are going to have problems depending on the neighborhood. Brazilian wax is an acceptable non-offensive term that let's people know what services are offered there without treading into lewd territory.

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Again I'm also speaking from a spirit of the law aspect.

It's not gender identity discrimination because it's about a specific genitalia not who has it.

 

[Z-Beat]

Again I'm also speaking from a spirit of the law aspect.

It's not gender identity discrimination because it's about a specific genitalia not who has it.

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Basically. It's not the same procedure for both types of genitalia.

 

[Aurica]

o_O I was agreeing with your post that they don't.

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Haha, yes. Your post looked super sarcastic to me! Sorry. I read it over a couple times, and I thought, "This is sarcastic as fuck for sure."

 

[Riggs]

FFS it's not a human right to get your bits waxed. What is she going to do next, take an OBGYN to court?

 

[Jeff Albertson]

This woman is a scumbag, a predatory menace who regardless of what the intentions are will no doubt harm the cause of transgender folk all around.

Again I would presume if I rang the same salons and asked them to wax my dick I'd get the same response she did, absolutely no discrimination here.

 

[Zaeia]

Wow, so they threw the homonationalism book at her. Very interesting defense.

 

[Deleted member 19003]

Haha, yes. Your post looked super sarcastic to me! Sorry. I read it over a couple times, and I thought, "This is sarcastic as fuck for sure."

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Super sorry about that! Not my intention :) Anyways, yes, back to topic, transgender rights are a real issue and they are definitely discriminated against in women's beauty sectors, but this Yaniv woman did this in very bad faith.

 

[Trup1aya]

Denying that a trans woman has female genetalia is denying that they are women.


I just want to say that I support and agree with you.

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Forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand this line of reasoning.

If Yaniv is a woman with female genitalia, then why are we calling her a transgender woman?

If Sex and gender are two separate concepts, then how is it "denial" to suggest that a woman be born with male sex organs? Isn't that who the term "transgender woman" refers to? What's the point of the label if not to highlight that identity isn't defined by anatomy.

Sorry in advance if my question comes off as offensive, but I don't know how to learn without asking. I do think that transgender women are women. But I also have grown to believe that the sex organs a person is born with Doesn't detemine their gender, nor does their gender determine their sex.

 

[Aurica]

Super sorry about that! Not my intention :) Anyways, yes, back to topic, transgender rights are a real issue and they are definitely discriminated against in women's beauty sectors, but this Yaniv woman did this in very bad faith.

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Now we agree.

 

[Apollo]

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand this line of reasoning.

If Yaniv is a woman with female genitalia, then why are we calling her a transgender woman?

If Sex and gender are two separate concepts, then how is it "denial" to suggest that a woman be born with male sex organs? Isn't that who the term "transgender woman" refers to? What's the point of the label if not to highlight that identity isn't defined by anatomy.

Sorry in advance if my question comes off as offensive, but I don't know how to learn without asking.

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Transgender is an adjective and is the counterpart to cisgender. All being trans means is that you were assigned a gender at birth that doesn't match with your innate gender identity. Said decision is, like as not, based on the genitalia you were born with. We certainly agree that one's anatomy doesn't determine their gender identity. Within this thread though there are disagreements as to whether or not genitalia is inherently gendered. For me, as a trans woman with a penis, I don't view what I have as male genitalia because I'm not a male. It's just... a penis. So I don't see the need to classify genitalia as male or female because it doesn't match with my own experience. I have what I have, and what I have has no bearing on what I am.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

Anyone touching another persons body for a living should have first right of refusal if they don't feel comfortable.

 

[Bruceleeroy]

Lordy this world is getting crazy.

 

[BlackFyre]

100% agree with the Beauticians.

My mom is one as well. And the same experience as well. The person yelled and scream and left.

Being Transgendered does not mean you must be a dick to people.

 

[Joni]

Within this thread though there are disagreements as to whether or not genitalia is inherently gendered.

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From a gender identity perspective you don't need o consider them as such, but from a pure biological point of view, they are. They are caused by the same chromosomes that determine your physical sex. There are male parts and female parts. Our sense of identity might or not might to that.

 

[Ra]

Yeah, but in non-sexual situations, it's very much possible to not see them as sexual in that moment. If you can stop looking at genitals as sexual in a non-sexual environment, the problem with touching them for a professional, non-sexual purpose kinda... goes away.
And I do believe that this is possible.

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But those of us who are not in penis touching professions should leave the "ease of touching penis theorycrafting" to those who are, shouldn't we? That's how I feel anyway.

It sounds great in purely cold, logical terms, when you'll never do it, but have some empathy.

 

[caliph95]

Yaniv is a piece of shit

Doesn't help she gives the right ammo

 

[Westbahnhof]

Transgendered

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that it's just "transgender", since it's not something that is done to you or subject to change. At least that was my understanding.

But those of us who are not in penis touching professions should leave the "ease of touching penis theorycrafting" to those who are, shouldn't we? That's how I feel anyway.

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I'm talking about hypothetical alternatives to our current society anyway, so clearly, what I'm talking about is not applicable to any current real world situations. I don't think anything I'm saying regarding these hypothetical situations is applicable to anyone actually doing that work in our existing world and society.
I'm just dreaming of a better world here, where these issues are not issues. Something I think is theoretically possible, but nothing I'll ever see.

 

[Deleted member 56580]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...woman-loses-case-against-beauticians-refused/

Thoughts?

Was the human rights court right to claim her human rights weren't violated? Also not sure what to think about them making the claim she specifically targeted small businesses for financial gain, when there's no real proof of that.

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Jessica Yanniv is an enormous piece of shit as well as a sexual predator and its literally known everywhere, what the fuck is this op

 

[Apollo]

From a gender identity perspective they don't need to be, but from a pure biological point of view, they are. They are caused by the same chromosomes that determine your physical sex.

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What purpose does it serve us to distinguish them as distinctly male and female? Everybody knows what you mean when you say penis and vagina. They're already inherently differentiated. I don't think we lose anything by using more inclusive language when discussing genitalia.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that it's just "transgender", since it's not something that is done to you or subject to change. At least that was my understanding.

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You're correct.

 

[Dixie Flatline]

"No woman should be compelled to touch male genitalia against her will," irrespective of identification, Jay Cameron, Justice Centre litigation manager said in a statement.

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Perfect response. This even being up for debate in the first place is so backwards.

 

[NexusCell]

Not sure how

What purpose does it serve us to distinguish them as distinctly male and female? Everybody knows what you mean when you say penis and vagina. They're already inherently differentiated. I don't think we lose anything by using more inclusive language when discussing genitalia.

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I believe it's more for descriptors without name dropping the actual name of the body part ie "masculine/male genitalia" instead of name dropping penis. I suppose sex organs or Genitalia alone aren't descriptive enough.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

Transgender is an adjective and is the counterpart to cisgender. All being trans means is that you were assigned a gender at birth that doesn't match with your innate gender identity. Said decision is, like as not, based on the genitalia you were born with. We certainly agree that one's anatomy doesn't determine their gender identity. Within this thread though there are disagreements as to whether or not genitalia is inherently gendered. For me, as a trans woman with a penis, I don't view what I have as male genitalia because I'm not a male. It's just... a penis. So I don't see the need to classify genitalia as male or female because it doesn't match with my own experience. I have what I have, and what I have has no bearing on what I am.

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Which just goes to prove, really, that the transgender "experience" is itself dramatically different from person to person. I know some transgender women who wanted to pass and hated having a penis so much they tried cutting it off, just as I've known transgender women who are fine with having a penis and don't want to replace it.

So how you define genitalia, if at all, is entirely down to the individual level.

 

[Apollo]

Which just goes to prove, really, that the transgender "experience" is itself dramatically different from person to person. I know some transgender women who wanted to pass and hated having a penis so much they tried cutting it off, just as I've known transgender women who are fine with having a penis and don't want to replace it.

So how you define genitalia, if at all, is entirely down to the individual level.

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Certainly. Different trans people are going to have different experiences with dysphoria and/or euphoria. I consider myself very lucky that I don't experience very significant genital dysphoria, but for plenty of trans people what's in their pants is a matter of literal life and death, and unfortunately we as a society still have a long way to go towards helping these people.

 

[NexusCell]

Personally, don't really believe there is an issue with using male/female to descibe sexual organs. Cis males can develop breasts due to hormone imbalances. Just because something is described as male or female doesn't mean it defines the identity of the person.

 

[Deleted member 56580]

Perfect response. This even being up for debate in the first place is so backwards.

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ya

also

What Jessica did this summer with kids was absolutely unbelievable

Wrong person to have that kind of convo about

 

[Androidsleeps]

Yes, being trans doesn't automatically make you a saint. This person is an opportunist who thought they'd get away with this bs disguised as activism for LGBTQ rights, and this will be a great gift to rightwingers who love to fearmonger about trans people.

Brazilian waxing for male and female genitalia isn't simply the same service and being an expert in one doesn't make you able to perform the other. Not to mention that waxing male genitals is usually more expensive too, and isn't offered at women's salons. The court made the right decision, thankfully.

 

[caliph95]

this will be a great gift to rightwingers who love to fearmonger about trans people.

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Not will be
Is

 

[Reformed Individual]

1. A penis is not "male genitalia".

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What?

 

[Apollo]

Personally, don't really believe there is an issue with using male/female to descibe sexual organs. Cis males can develop breasts due to hormone imbalances. Just because something is described as male or female doesn't mean it defines the identity of the person.

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For me, it's a matter of being considerate. It's not pleasant to be told that I'm packing male genitals because even if my penis itself doesn't bother me, the association with being male very much does.

 

[Boddy]

Which just goes to prove, really, that the transgender "experience" is itself dramatically different from person to person. I know some transgender women who wanted to pass and hated having a penis so much they tried cutting it off, just as I've known transgender women who are fine with having a penis and don't want to replace it.

So how you define genitalia, if at all, is entirely down to the individual level.

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Very much this.

What?

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Trans women are a thing, more news at 11.

 

[Westbahnhof]

What?

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If you read the thread, this is about semantically choosing to respect trans people by not referring to their genitals as "male" or "female" regardless of their identity. Apollo has some posts giving insight about why (some) trans people prefer this.
It's actually quite simple, women don't want to be told they have male genitals, and vice versa.

 

[Reformed Individual]

Trans women are a thing, more news at 11.

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Yes, but a penis is still a male sex organ.

 

[Boddy]

Yes, but a penis is still a male sex organ.

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A lot of trans women don't see it that way, but I guess thier opinion doesn't matter as much as the one of cis people.

 

[Apollo]

If you read the thread, this is about semantically choosing to respect trans people by not referring to their genitals as "male" or "female" regardless of their identity. Apollo has some posts giving insight about why (some) trans people prefer this.
It's actually quite simple, women don't want to be told they have male genitals, and vice versa.

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Yes, but a penis is still a male sex organ.

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To add some more context here, I took particular umbrage with this line from the quotes in the OP:

who identifies as a woman but has male genitalia

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The way "male genitalia" can be used as a qualifier in this way is distressing to me

 

[SapientWolf]

Yes, being trans doesn't automatically make you a saint. This person is an opportunist who thought they'd get away with this bs disguised as activism for LGBTQ rights, and this will be a great gift to rightwingers who love to fearmonger about trans people.

Brazilian waxing for male and female genitalia isn't simply the same service and being an expert in one doesn't make you able to perform the other. Not to mention that waxing male genitals is usually more expensive too, and isn't offered at women's salons. The court made the right decision, thankfully.

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The hair itself can be different as well. It's usually coarser and thicker around the penis. Waxing that can end up in a bloody mess.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Yes, but a penis is still a male sex organ.

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Language is incredibly malleable. If we understand that trans people would rather see us not refer to genitals als "male" and "female" when we can talk about a "penis" or a "vagina" instead, why wouldn't we?
At least, that's where I'm standing.

The way "male genitalia" can be used as a qualifier in this way is distressing to me

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I'm sorry if the following is also distressing, but I'm genuinely curious, and I hope you won't get mad:
Would writing "is a women with male genitalia" be just as bad, or better? I wouldn't expect it to be good enough, but I'm wondering if to you, there's a difference.

 

[Windrunner]

Given this story is centred on someone with a history of racism and of sexual abuse of minors, any respectful discussion regarding this topic seems unlikely as such this topic is now closed.