Miscend

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Oct 25, 2017
265
Let's assume CDP were not exactly forthcoming about just how potentially lucrative a Witcher game series could be. Maybe they made it seem like they didn't expect to get much out of it as they had no prior experience producing games. The games industry is very risky, there is no guarantee of success, Sapowski then took the less risky position of a one off payment.

We can also assume that Sapowski was poorly advised by his team. He even admitted that he knew nothing about games at the time. I do not blame him at all. People make bad decisions all the time.
 
Mar 17, 2018
2,927
Just think if this guy was a nice person and played his cards right he would probably be helping the dev team out while getting royalties lol.
 

Popetita

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Oct 29, 2017
1,957
TX|PR
I don't follow your logic. CDPR came to him to buy the rights to make games based off the property. He had nothing to lose, all to gain. He could have said no. They offered him royalties, he opted not to and asked for a cash sum. Your whole argument is "come on guy, be a friend". Cdpr has been working on their next big title full blown for multiple years now, giving away money is not a smart business move when you've been spending money to sustain development.

If the courts of Poland find that he's entitled to more then that's that, the law of the land called for it. But be a good friend, be my guy is not the basis to give him more when at the time of the deal both sides of the deal got what they wanted, one who didn't believe in the medium and got the sum of money he wanted, the other paying what was a lot of money for them and a fairly big risk as they were betting a lot on the game based off this franchise.

He had everything to loose if he gave them the rights in exchange of some royalties he could have believed would never come. CDPR was nothing back then. Everyone is acting as if he sold the right to the CDPR that made Witcher 3 and this is not true. They both took risks.

Of course CDPR owes him nothing, but they became all they are using his properties. So again I think it would be good of them to just give him something, not 16 million that is too much but throw a bone to the guy that created the characters that made all of their thing possible.

Also some of the post seem to say he has a right to sue them based on the contract so there's that.

And again 9.5k is not a lot of a game's budget. Even back in 2007.

Again, they offered him royalties. He declined because he thought the games would fail. Hindsight and all that. With what little information we have, CDPR was extremely fair when acquiring the IP. No one fucked anyone over. If they CHOOSE to throw some cash his way, cool. If not, that's cool too. They owe him jack shit.

And he had every right to believe an unproven game developer would fail to deliver on the game and royalties.

I am not saying anyone fucked anyone, though some in this thread seem to think the author fucked CDPR by asking them for 9.5k for a license when even that seems like very little for it.

I am only saying it would be cool for them to throw him a bone, not a 16 million bone, but something since his property has made them hundreds of million. People here acting like "fuck this guy" rub me the wrong way. One can argue that a game we love and a studio we also love would not be in the same spot in 2018 if not for this deal.

Does he require it? Nope, but it would be really nice that they gave him something.
 

Deleted member 11413

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The value of "his work" is what it is because of CDPR, he gambled against their success and lost.
No, the value of his work stands for itself. CDPR's success is proof of his work's value, considering how much they borrow from it.

That's what kind of bothers me about this, is that CDPR clearly understands the quality and impact of what Sapkowski created, their developer interviews and the way their games borrow and emulate Sapkowski's style make that obvious. So if you know his work is so important to your success, then give him some compensation. Before the first Witcher game came out, they weren't in a position to give him much more then what they gave him. That is not longer the case, so I think they should give him something, at least out of respect for his work.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,425
Sydney
It'll be down to the lawyers and how Polish IP law works I guess.

Difficult to see how Sapkowski's comments over the years about regretting taking the lump sum don't hurt him though.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,922
Finland
I'd love to know if the people proudly declaring they've never heard of him or the books before the game have ever heard about Stanislaw Lem either. Probably not many, though hopefully some atleast.
No, the value of his work stands for itself. CDPR's success is proof of his work's value, considering how much they borrow from it.

That's what kind of bothers me about this, is that CDPR clearly understands the quality and impact of what Sapkowski created, their developer interviews and the way their games borrow and emulate Sapkowski's style make that obvious. So if you know his work is so important to your success, then give him some compensation. Before the first Witcher game came out, they weren't in a position to give him much more then what they gave him. That is not longer the case, so I think they should give him something, at least out of respect for his work.
Yeah exactly this. Makes me bit disappointed about CDPR tbh.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,710
Can we stop using the fucking word stan? I swear it highlights all the hipsters on this board. If you had read any of the other topics you might have seen a more nuanced view than the bullshit accusation you just leveled against me. Shit, I had people telling me I was defending the author too much in the last one.

What are you stanning for? Are you the mediator? Praise be.

You don't think it's a bit overzealous of you to assume his work is bad without having read any of it? Was it based on some higher level thinking I missed in another thread? I'd love to see the nuance that developed that statement.

Go ahead, be upset about a word but it absolutely suits someone making a comment like that.
 
Mar 17, 2018
2,927
You don't think it's a bit overzealous of you to assume his work is bad without having read any of it? Was it based on some higher level thinking I missed in another thread?

Go ahead, be upset about a word but it absolutely suits someone making a comment like that.

I said I don't know in the post, meaning I don't know if they are good, but typically I do not much like translations unless done extremely well. I didn't mean the fantasy stuff was horrible or anything, but I sometimes have a hard time thinking a Polish translation will keep me glued. As I said I don't know.
 

Dazraell

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,843
Poland
This is one of my favourite chapters from the books, and its butchered here to hell and back lol
I have to commend their ambition though, they had some serious balls wanting to tell it with so little money.

Also this is probably one of the episodes we are going to see in the netflix series. Hope they have a better team for the golden dragon lol

Netflix is working with Platige Image on that series. They are known as devs of CGI intros for The Witcher games (and some trailers including Killing Monsters), so they're more experienced with special effects. Polish TV series is a laughing stock even these days, so yes, I think they're aware that people will go with torches and pitchforks on them if they screw up.
 

Donos

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,590
All his documented interviews are not going to help him / case...

Also completely laughable that his books made the game(s) successful. People i know started reading the books after W3.
 

SPRidley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,318
Netflix is working with Platige Image on that series. They are known as devs of CGI intros for The Witcher games (and some trailers including Killing Monsters), so they're more experienced with special effects. Polish TV series is a laughing stock even these days, so yes, I think they're aware that people will go with torches and pitchforks on them if they screw up.

I know, thats one of the things we knew when the series was announced. My comment was more in jest lol They probably going to do a fine job.
 

Deleted member 11413

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lol...the ego of this dude.
Yeah he's a grumpy old man. Dude is in his seventies and has people coming up to him all the time asking why he started writing books about a video game, when the video games are heavily based on his writing. That would make most writers grumpy, tbh, though some are way more polite and understanding about it than others. He'd probably be a lot more polite and understanding if he had gotten a better deal originally, or if he didn't have to go to these lengths and CDPR cut him a check as a thank you.

At the end of the day they are probably going to just settle and everyone will walk away irritated but placated.
 

principal

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Feb 14, 2018
1,279
At the end of the day this will be settled out of court and Sapkowski will get a payment.
 

Deleted member 11413

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All his documented interviews are not going to help him / case...

Also completely laughable that his books made the game(s) successful. People i know started reading the books after W3.
Are you Polish/Eastern European? If not then no shit, many of the books weren't even translated before a couple of years ago.
 

Donos

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,590
Why is it laughable? Without a world and characters the game couldn't be as it is, right?
That's not what i mean. It's clear that without him and his world , there would be no Witcher game. But him saying in interviews that people rushed to the games because of his books is bold.
Bit saying that there were no fans of his books which then instantly got interested in the games but that probably is not the reason for the huge success.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,118
Also completely laughable that his books made the game(s) successful. People i know started reading the books after W3.

It really depends on where in the timeline you're talking about. His books are almost undoubtedly the reason CDPR didn't pack it up after Witcher 1. It was a known and beloved property in Poland and that equated to sales in their home country. Sales that were they not to happen would have very likely meant the death of CDPR.

After Witcher 2 sure some countries in the west definitely benefited from the game franchise and found out about the books that way.

But the games were literally built on his IP. Those characters make the game successful. The style makes the game successful. The lore and world makes the game successful. Yes CDPR does a shit-ton of work and made an amazing product and that's why they're a success, too.

The two are very intwined at this point in time. CDPR may not exist without Sapkowski's IP fame at an early point and the backbone provided has been priceless. At the same time CDPR absolutely fucking nailing Witcher 3 to a degree almost unheard of also boosted Sapkowski's work and got new eyeballs and interest on an incredible work of art.
 

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That's not what i mean. It's clear that without him and his world , there would be no Witcher game. But him saying in interviews that people rushed to the games because of his books is bold.
He is probably right about people in Poland, where he lives and his books are popular and the connection to the books did help sell the games. I'm not sure he has any frame of reference for the fanbase in the US or even Western Europe.
 

garion333

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,722
I don't know what everyone is arguing about. The guy wants some money, can't blame him there, and he's likely to be enough of a legal nuisance that they'll settle for an undisclosed sum.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if his lawyers are working pro bono. They maybe came to him. Idle speculation, obv.
 

Donos

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,590
He is probably right about people in Poland, where he lives and his books are popular and the connection to the books did help sell the games. I'm not sure he has any frame of reference for the fanbase in the US or even Western Europe.
I don't deny it for Poland and Eastern Europe.
I don't want to trash him with my post but all the interviews i have seen from him from like 5 different threads on era and gaf in regard to the games, don't paint him like an overly humble guy.

Like i said in the other thread today, i expect a settlement (1mill or something like that) and everything will be fine.
 

Lil Peanut Brotha

Motion Graphics Artist at Riot Games
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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm of the mind that while they don't have to pay him anything, but it would be great to throw him a bone since they've built something massively successful with his work as a foundation. It's just the right thing to do IMO. Considering how much he clearly undervalued the rights to this, maybe something like 1 million would be plenty of money for any regular person to get in a situation like this rather than 13.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Let's assume CDP were not exactly forthcoming about just how potentially lucrative a Witcher game series could be. Maybe they made it seem like they didn't expect to get much out of it as they had no prior experience producing games. The games industry is very risky, there is no guarantee of success, Sapowski then took the less risky position of a one off payment.

We can also assume that Sapowski was poorly advised by his team. He even admitted that he knew nothing about games at the time. I do not blame him at all. People make bad decisions all the time.

We could make assumptions. Or instead we could just literally listen to what Sapkowski said himself.

No one was tricked here.

It was a bad decision and now he regrets it. That's it.

I have plenty of those, as does everyone.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,922
Finland
Yeah he's a grumpy old man. Dude is in his seventies and has people coming up to him all the time asking why he started writing books about a video game, when the video games are heavily based on his writing. That would make most writers grumpy, tbh, though some are way more polite and understanding about it than others. He'd probably be a lot more polite and understanding if he had gotten a better deal originally, or if he didn't have to go to these lengths and CDPR cut him a check as a thank you.

At the end of the day they are probably going to just settle and everyone will walk away irritated but placated.
Also in the interview, while I don't agree myself, calling games a bad medium for storytelling is hardly controversial. It's something even some capital G gamers think, even on these boards. His description got a chuckle out of me though.
Me? Germany, why? It may be different in Poland but i very much doubt it for anywhere else.
Ah interesting, the books (atleast some) were translated to German before the first game. But as also stated in the thread earlier, the books had sold over 5 million in Europe before the first game. It's more than the two first games sold combined in their first years. Now the numbers are bit skewed since they've been throwing the games out for free on occasions and selling them for few bucks. But I asked since I was wondering if the books were available in your country way before the game, but seems that they were. Also been stated in the thread that the books and him were awarded all over Europe before the first or the second game. Thought you might be from the US. But don't confuse your own circles with the world, there's plenty of evidence to show that he wasn't a nobody before the games.
 
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Dazraell

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,843
Poland
That's not what i mean. It's clear that without him and his world , there would be no Witcher game. But him saying in interviews that people rushed to the games because of his books is bold.

Sorry, I didn't get what you were saying. You're right. This claim was ridiculous if he speaked about international market.

But if he was talking about Poland, he may be partially right. When a first game launched in 2007, there was a lot of people in Poland who initially bought a game for that reason. The Witcher is popular there since 90s.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,560
thinking within the parameters of "what's right", he should be offered a goodwill retroactive payback on CDPR's terms.

but he made his own bed and it's their rodeo in this regard. they don't have to do anything if they don't want to
 

Donos

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,590
Sorry, I didn't get what you were saying. You're right. This claim was ridiculous if he speaked about international market.

But if he was talking about Poland, he may be partially right. When a first game launched in 2007, there was a lot of people in Poland who initially bought a game for that reason. The Witcher is popular there since 90s.
No doubt about that.
 

Hellshy

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,179
No, the value of his work stands for itself. CDPR's success is proof of his work's value, considering how much they borrow from it.

That's what kind of bothers me about this, is that CDPR clearly understands the quality and impact of what Sapkowski created, their developer interviews and the way their games borrow and emulate Sapkowski's style make that obvious. So if you know his work is so important to your success, then give him some compensation. Before the first Witcher game came out, they weren't in a position to give him much more then what they gave him. That is not longer the case, so I think they should give him something, at least out of respect for his work.

I agree 100% with this. $9500 for the rights to make at minimum 3 games is a steal. Besides what if the contract doesn't actually specify how many games The license is for?
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
I don't know what everyone is arguing about. The guy wants some money, can't blame him there, and he's likely to be enough of a legal nuisance that they'll settle for an undisclosed sum.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if his lawyers are working pro bono. They maybe came to him. Idle speculation, obv.

You realize he's a famous author in his home country and has sold millions of books before the games even existed.

That he's had deals done for TV and movies even.

We're not talking about a starving unknown small author.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,922
Finland
I agree 100% with this. $9500 for the rights to make at minimum 3 games is a steal. Besides what if the contract doesn't actually specify how many games The license is for?
Well with Gwent there's already more (also Witcher Adventure game and mobile moba). And CDPR has stated that Witcher and Cyberpunk are IP:s they are going forward with.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
The indie game studio wanted to offer royalties. It was a big commitment to give a lump sum instead, money they really couldn't spare.

Royalties wasn't just meant to make authors rich, it was also about allowing a studio to only pay back for the IP in instalments over time, and if the game bombed then they don't need to be indebted.

The claim that the studio had tricked the author is ridiculous. The author rejected the deal because he wanted his money up front. The studio didn't want that, offering royalties was better for them at the time.

The author strongarmed a weak and struggling game studio and had gotten his way.

The fact that what he forced the deal to be, ended up being less beneficial to him in the long term, doesn't change the fact that he made it that way.
 

Donos

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,590
In a perfect world he would say how grateful he is about what CDPR accomplished and how he benefited from it.
CDPR on the other hand could say that he really got away with the short end back then (through his own fault though) and they want to give him a nice check.

They would then work together for the next games and profit both from the synergies.

But that is a world where Trump is probably not POTUS.
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,529
I don't know. Considering the success CDPR has had and as they continue profiting with new games in the future. Would had been nice to throw him a bone even way before. The books were/are extremely important and loved for CDPR too, that's exactly why they wanted to make a game about it. Seems weird to see so many shitting on Sapkowski and especially his work, as CDPR didn't choose the books for adaptation by accident. "Could have been any IP" well yeah but it wasn't, they wanted Witcher because it's so damn good.

If they want to give him money that's fine. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve and i disagree with people saying that this was just a random fantasy property and it deserves all of it's fame to the games.

However i do dislike the narrative that Sapowsky was taken advantage of by CDP. That's not what happened, and that he legally seeks to get more money is his right but i'm not super sympathethic to his cause.
 

Budi

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Oct 25, 2017
13,922
Finland
If they want to give him money that's fine. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve and i disagree with people saying that this was just a random fantasy property and it deserves all of it's fame to the games.

However i do dislike the narrative that Sapowsky was taken advantage of by CDP. That's not what happened, and that he legally seeks to get more money is his right but i'm not super sympathethic to his cause.
I agree he wasn't taken advantage of. But haven't seen much such (if any here) accusations either. CDPR couldn't predict the success they have now either and they did offer him another deal at first. But just like Polish TV and film don't usually make big waves abroad, Sapkowski of course thought the game(s) wouldn't either. But Witcher is arguably their biggest cultural export. Also I feel that 16 mil is maybe bit much, even though I do think he deserves something.
 

Megatron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,446
No, the value of his work stands for itself. CDPR's success is proof of his work's value, considering how much they borrow from it.

That's what kind of bothers me about this, is that CDPR clearly understands the quality and impact of what Sapkowski created, their developer interviews and the way their games borrow and emulate Sapkowski's style make that obvious. So if you know his work is so important to your success, then give him some compensation. Before the first Witcher game came out, they weren't in a position to give him much more then what they gave him. That is not longer the case, so I think they should give him something, at least out of respect for his work.


How you treat people matters. If he was complimentary and respectful In His comments and dealings with him, that would be one thing. But it sounds like he's been a huge pain to work with. Why would you want to reward someone who treats you like shit?
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
I agree he wasn't taken advantage of. But haven't seen much such (if any here) accusations either. CDPR couldn't predict the success they have now either and they did offer him another deal at first. But just like Polish TV and film don't usually make big waves abroad, Sapkowski of course thought the game(s) wouldn't either. But Witcher is arguably their biggest cultural export. Also I feel that 16 mil is maybe bit much, even though I do think he deserves something.
He already got that something though.
I don't understand the argument that he got his IP stolen.

As it currently stands, the one taking advantage right now is the author by sueing. There is a guilty party, and it isn't the game studio.
 

stan423321

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,676
Well CDPR did a communication saying they tried (the author declined) to buy the IP (everything) so I guess they only has the license for games. The IP is registered to the author.
...No. Let's try this again. Under Polish copyright law, you can have a license to do something in particular with a work, but you can also buy (well, pay for shifting upon oneself) rights to do something with a work. This is not the same thing, license can have more varied usage restrictions and is easier to revoke. There is also no real concept of the "whole IP". Some copyright rights are unsellable once the work is established. Everything else can be licensed or sold, but only piecewise, not in bulk - at least if the owner is a person. Things get more like "whole IP" in case of work for hire with initial copyright assigned to a company in the first place, but this does not apply here so let's not consider it. If the world comes up with a new way to do things with work the rights to that will always spawn at whoever was the original author, law-wise, or their inheritor.

The prior communication from both CDPR spokespeople and Sapkowski suggests he did transfer away the whole thing, since he wanted the upfront payment. I imagine the CDPR reasoning behind asking for this was, since Sapkowski wanted these 35k PLN and this was not a trivial sum for CDPR, they wanted to be able to recoup costs by selling them to someone else if they failed and there was someone interested, and they also liked the fact Sapkowski couldn't randomly revoke it; and Sapkowski assumed no one would be interested in Witcher IP for games again.
 

Deleted member 11413

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If they want to give him money that's fine. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve and i disagree with people saying that this was just a random fantasy property and it deserves all of it's fame to the games.

However i do dislike the narrative that Sapowsky was taken advantage of by CDP. That's not what happened, and that he legally seeks to get more money is his right but i'm not super sympathethic to his cause.
They didn't take advantage of him at the time, absolutely not. The fact that they are totally ok with just giving him $9,500 for the rights to his work after making millions off of his work is disrespectful, though.

Honestly I think they will settle, and their lawyers have to say this even if they plan to pay him. It's just kind of a shame it got to this point in the first place. Everyone knows his work is worth more than what they paid him, even if he made a mistake.
 

TheIlliterati

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Oct 28, 2017
4,782
He was trying to screw them over by getting money for what he thought was a doomed video game project. He instead got screwed over by his own hubris. Thems the breaks.
 

Deleted member 11413

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How you treat people matters. If he was complimentary and respectful In His comments and dealings with him, that would be one thing. But it sounds like he's been a huge pain to work with. Why would you want to reward someone who treats you like shit?
On the contrary, I don't think they've worked much with him at all.
 

Dazraell

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,843
Poland
No, the value of his work stands for itself. CDPR's success is proof of his work's value, considering how much they borrow from it.

That's what kind of bothers me about this, is that CDPR clearly understands the quality and impact of what Sapkowski created, their developer interviews and the way their games borrow and emulate Sapkowski's style make that obvious. So if you know his work is so important to your success, then give him some compensation. Before the first Witcher game came out, they weren't in a position to give him much more then what they gave him. That is not longer the case, so I think they should give him something, at least out of respect for his work.

I'm pretty sure that people at CDPR just don't like him. They didn't gave him royalties, because he refused them. Sapkowski is a very grumpy and unpleasant guy. Not exactly a role model. He may be a good writer, but if you met him you would understand what I'm talking about.
 
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