"Oh when you think about it the number of Jews killed is such a small portion of the total global population so I don't see why people act like the Holocaust is such a big deal."
China’s new ‘social credit system’ is a dystopian nightmare
- Thread starter Ryder9
- Start date
You are mischaracterizing the criticism. People are aware most Chinese people are unaffected by the system and dont care about it, that's how the system is able to exist. The constant need to point out that the average Chinese person doesn't care that they live in an oppressive regime because it doesnt affect them even though that fact is obvious to anyone paying attention to the issue comes across as downplaying the oppressive actions of the Chinese government.
That said, the regime does affect everyone by restricting their freedoms, they just dont care about that because they've been conditioned not to expect those freedoms.
It doesn't matter if the Chinese people feel oppressed by their government; There are those oppressed by the government, and that oppression is not distributed equally or everywhere on purpose. People who think "But I'M not oppressed! My Family is not oppressed!" are a key component needed for this oppression to work. As long as they're not anywhere close to next on 'the list' it doesn't matter to them.
Stanning for an authoritarian regime or death camps because not everybody in a country feels oppressed is a great look guys.
Stanning for an authoritarian regime or death camps because not everybody in a country feels oppressed is a great look guys.
I'd bet anything there are sizable resistances in the country but they are held down and cut off from the rest of the world.
I have known a few Chinese girls who came to the US for college and everything about China that was negative was dismissed as US propaganda (Including the Muslim camps, I still need an update from them now that Xi has publicly admitted to it), so there is definitely dystopia level conditioning happening in China. Heck, I would counter them that for all of USA's crap, we can still legally have a negative view point on our political leaders and country and not be arrested but from inside the USA in a closed room they won't criticize anything about China.
I have known a few Chinese girls who came to the US for college and everything about China that was negative was dismissed as US propaganda (Including the Muslim camps, I still need an update from them now that Xi has publicly admitted to it), so there is definitely dystopia level conditioning happening in China. Heck, I would counter them that for all of USA's crap, we can still legally have a negative view point on our political leaders and country and not be arrested but from inside the USA in a closed room they won't criticize anything about China.
Goddam you are a bad reader.
Nah I don't think I am, because when I first said most people aren't affected and don't care, it was in response to a question someone posed about how the average Chinese person feels about it. And then I said well most people are unaffected and don't really even think about it, then I got piled on. Then I got the fact that 4 million people face an airplane ban. All that does is reinforce my point that most people don't give a shit in china about this system as it currently stands.
You're 100% right about the point that the ordinary Chinese person does not feel oppressed by the Chinese government, and they have every reason over the last 30-40 years to be bullish on their government given how many people have risen out of abject poverty in that time (sure, it was poverty that the government helped orchestrate in those preceding years, but still).
I think that the social credit system is similar to the Trump administration's policy of detaining immigrants at the border, they're both types of 'canaries in the coal mine,' in that they're a good representation of general anxiety that other people have about the government. China's crackdown on Muslim minorities is, by far, much worse than the 'social credit system,' but both of them are emblematic of the same thing: A super-powerful surveillance state, and the crackdown on Muslims in West China is what many would see the fruition or culmination of the technology behind the social credit system in the more populated cities in the rest of mainland China.
Millions of Americans were skeptical of the Trump Administration's appeals to far right ideology, Trump's coziness with foreign dictators, and they're skeptical of the relationships that Trump makes around the globe. Many Americans see the Trump Administration as a sort of wanna-be fascist administration... But, the overwhelming majority of Americans have not had their lives materially changed over the last 2-3 years by the Trump Administration. Except (and others) can point to the border dispute to see how the Trump Administration treats the most vulnerable, they lock them in cages, separate children from their families, and give refugees and immigrants virtually no due process under law. So, while most Americans are materially unaffected by child separation at the border or policies locking refugee families in cages beneath bridges, it's a sort of canary in the coal mine that shows you the true character of this administration.
With China, you can look at hundreds of thousands of people being sent to concentration camps in West China for doing things like growing a beard, reading the Qur'an (or being accused of reading the Qu'ran), or talking with Western journalists, or talking to their children who are studying abroad ... and then you can also look at this vast surveillance state and how it makes these things possible. The same thing that makes jailing Muslims in concentration camps possible is the thing that makes the social credit system possible.
The main issue is the Chinese government, just like the main issue for many Americans is the Trump administration's daliance with far right fascism... But things like the social credit system or family separation of immigrants is the thing that people can point to to say, "See -- this is evidence of what their true inclinations are!" The social credit system may only unfairly ruin a few peoples lives, and in a country of billions of people, it's easy to say "What's the harm? It's just a few thousand people who have had their lives unfairly ruined by this?" And likewise, it's easy for an American who lives thousands of miles from the border to say, "What's the harm? These immigrants are crossing the border illegally so it's okay to detain them?" But, when you see nefarious ends -- as most of us do with the Trump administration or with the government of China -- these things that most people are inoculated from end up being representative of the true intentions of those who are implementing them.
Says the person trying to defend a brutal dictatorship becaus they only send a minority of their oppressed people to the death camps.
Them not giving a shit is the problem though. They are happy to cede more and more power to the government, power which is in turn used to oppress the populace.
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Absolutely correct. The main difference is that the Chinese government has far more power over its citizenry than the US government does, and thus is able to successfully harm citizens and stifle dissent far more effectively and at a far larger scale than the Trump administration can. Both governments have an inclination to right wing authoratarian control over society, but one society has lots of protections and resistance to those attempts, and in the other dissent and resistance is basically impossible on a large scale due to the overwhelming power of the government
How about you learn to read and stop acting like I'm in favor of any policy the Chinese government puts forward? Even better stop acting like ever advocated or even condoned ethnic cleansing or genocide of any people's. Or even better just shut up if you've got nothing worthwhile to contribute.
Protip saying crap like "well most people dont feel oppressed" is absolutely defending China's policies
If you have to keep telling everyone to learn to read, then maybe you're just doing a poor job of making your point. Not sure about the other guy, but I know I didn't suddenly go illiterate this morning and I doubt everyone else did as well.
He's just here to continually tell us that no one in China cares and inform us that we can't read. I have no idea what point he's even fussing about atm. Some not caring doesn't change what's going on.
"Fussing" about the person that thinks I'm in favor of genocide ? I mean, that's pretty shitty.
If I'm not making myself clear somehow please point it out. Responding to a question "how do people in china feel about this" with a firsthand answer, then being told I'm wrong by a bunch of people who haven't probably ever even visited the place is pretty shitty. I don't think that would fly in any other topic. Anyway I'm going to bed now for real. I'll reply in the morning if there is worthwhile discussion to be had.
I feel for the chinese in the future. A terrible war will explode sooner or later.
The story of humanity is a story about freedom. Sooner or later freedom speaks louder and a terrible war will wage.
The story of humanity is a story about freedom. Sooner or later freedom speaks louder and a terrible war will wage.
Vern I don't know if you thought your non-admittal of being wrong was the end of you being defensive, but it's not. It pretty clear in your posts that you're not trying to focus on a specific point that you want to bring across, instead, you're just trying to defend yourself. That would be okay if it was justified, but it isn't. You can see by how you are having to build up straw men all the time -- "people on resetera", and how you go all over the place regarding your point -- "it's not that bad" -> "I'm not saying it's not bad" -> "it's bad" -> "stop misreading me".
People (me) had an initial problem with your (intentional?) misreading in the first post you made in this thread. Everything afterward is just an extension of that. If you would genuinely be trying to inform and educate the people here, then you need to be clear and concise in your message. Now in the same breath you're defending your position, adding more opinions to the pile, and providing more anecdotes. All without anything coherent to connect (or delineate) what you're saying.
People (me) had an initial problem with your (intentional?) misreading in the first post you made in this thread. Everything afterward is just an extension of that. If you would genuinely be trying to inform and educate the people here, then you need to be clear and concise in your message. Now in the same breath you're defending your position, adding more opinions to the pile, and providing more anecdotes. All without anything coherent to connect (or delineate) what you're saying.
Gonna echo the sentiment here, most of my relatives when I ask them about this shit just laughed and said they barely heard of this or don't think much of this at all. The funny thing about years of suppression of free speech in China combined with a staggering economic rise made a lot of people there pretty accepting of whatever the government does as it a) very clearly does not effect their lives and anyone they know b) they know they can do jack all about it
I frankly can't blame them for this, I don't know what it's like to grow up there and get the sanitized version of all news about the government then never being able to have any civil disobedience or any say in governance
Which is why it's not effective to really blame the average Chinese person for the horrible actions of the Chinese government. They really don't have any say in what the government does or doesn't do. The apathy towards it is pretty horrifying in and of itself, especially as a western observer, but it makes sense. Apathy is the default state because China's government has made caring about their oppressive policies dangerous.
I'm sorry that average citizens are discussing threats against the freedoms of average citizens. Obviously this can only be discussed by the political class, who have "better minds" and should lead us sheeple to victory. We uneducated and unwashed masses have no right to our own destiny.
