Chipotle manager+staff tells these customers they have to pay first lol (Up: Tweets Change Story)
- Thread starter Mr. X
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I would take 100 racists who would not otherwise be exposed if it means someone loses their job for a few days and gets it back, absolutely.
No, not "and gets it back" because your stance in this thread has been that she deserved to lose her job for not following protocol.
You believe that one completely innocent person being attacked by a mob, being publicly branded as something they are not, and losing their job in the process is 'worth it' for 'exposing' people via public shaming rather than any other avenue of redress?
I didn't say she deserved to lose her job, I said I did not fault Chipotle for letting her go for the reasons they did. In fact, I said it was my hope she would get her job back.
Yes, when there are few other viable avenues of redress available to minorities.
i hope you never end up being in the shoes of that innocent person
Not that I want to throw my hat into this, but its why we (though Im Canadian and it still applies) have the "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" in the legal system.
It's that reasonable doubt is that we would rather let an actual criminal walk free than put an innocent person in prison vs. putting everyone in jail including innocent people. It's why the death penalty is so expensive to pursue; if you're going to sentence someone to death, you want to make sure you get it right.
Vs. this idea that someone should be punished right away before we get all the details; its why mob mentality is scary as hell if you turn out to be innocent.
Wasn't there a paper/speech about how internet mob mentality can utterly destroy people's psyche.
I linked him a TED talk about exactly that in this very topic.
He said he "has no minutes" for the targets discussed.
Chipotle is not a court of law and getting fired is not comparable to the death penalty.
Why the fuck is everyone so bad at analogies?
Why the fuck is everyone so bad at analogies?
Ah, no, again you are (probably willfully at this point to suit whatever narrative you have concocted) misrepresenting my words. I specified two distinct people that were discussed in the talk - not all of them. Please stick to what was actually said and do not misrepresent my words.
Yes, it absolutely can, but we are straying from my original point where others sought to make it more broad than intended. Let's get back to base camp with my original statement:
Specifically, "in cases framed like these". What that means is in cases where a minority has claimed there to be racist intent, it is still my assertion that more often than not the general public (some would frame that as a "mob" for their own reasons) gets it right, and that it is indeed a good thing for minorities who have little other viable courses of redress to have these people exposed.
Yes, that means sometimes like in this instance, people get it wrong. However, that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater and decry the practice entirely as it still serves an overall net positive in these types of situations.
If this isn't the infamous bad faith posting then I don't know what is
What is the punishment for being a racist in America? Does a PoC have the ability to walk into a police station and say "X person is a racist, please arrest them"? No. Minorities have suffered under racism since the inception of this country with no legal recourse. Now, they have the ability due to our technology to make the world aware of these people, because nobody else is going to do it for them.
Tell me the viable recourse minorities have against racists and why overall making racists public and accountable is a bad thing.
I said it right here, actually, a whole 2 days ago:
Here is a link: https://www.resetera.com/posts/15127357/
So please, tell me exactly how it's "bad faith" by holding the exact same position I held days ago.
It works better than writing an letter or sending an angry phone call and nothing happens. Exposing people works.
BTW, internet mob justice always has a few casualties and internet mob "giving" always fucks it up sometimes.
I am verbatim quoting what you said about the people who were the example subjects of the talk. That you have "no minutes" for them.
A talk about how the psychological scarring they suffered via a twitter mob far exceeds anything any legal system could ever inflict, and of vastly disproportionate response to their perceived crimes.
You have further declared you are fine with a completely innocent person being harassed as collateral damage for your perceived 'greater good'.
You can clarify that stance, or you can back pedal from it, but I am not "concocting a narrative".
Jonah Lehrer being a serial plagiarist and liar who could barely eek out a solid apology is not perceived, it is well documented. Justine Sacco's racist tweet was not perceived, it actually happened. I'm not a plagiarist and liar, and I don't post racist tweets so I guess I will never understand their specific plight.
It's not a perceived greater good, racists being exposed is a greater good and is worthwhile. If your perception on that differs, I believe that is unfortunate but leaves little else to be discussed between us if we are that far apart on the matter.
None of that has anything to do with the fact that you think it's okay to publicly ruin someone's life over a perceived action by using the internet as a mob to enact vengeance. That's why I said it's shit.
How do you dine and dash at Chipotle though, you have to pay at the register before hand...or did they just grab the food and run?
These guys are fucking idiots though....ah man, now people will use these jokers to push some nutty conservative agenda. Fuck these guys. God damn it.
These guys are fucking idiots though....ah man, now people will use these jokers to push some nutty conservative agenda. Fuck these guys. God damn it.
It has plenty to do with it in the context of this conversation because I said that for a reason and offered a specific purpose. You cannot divorce the good from the bad and focus solely on the bad as that is not anywhere near an objective look at the circumstances I was discussing, it just means you don't like "mob justice" under any circumstances, even when it is a net benefit for minorities, which is why I mentioned that. You've just discounted the context of my comment entirely in order to say you're just against something, which is fine of course, but if we're talking facts you also have to recognize you're vehemently against something that has had a positive effect for a lot of people, people who are historically and currently under-served in our country.
You're still calling the manager racist?
If you order food and don't have money, it's Chipotle's policy to just give you a freebie and not shake you down for the food at least the first time. If you go unnoticed you can get several free meals by abusing this, which they admitted to and did this at multiple locations.
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Not sure why you just cut off other half of my post. Not really, but it could be a factor. I don't know and I don't necessarily think it's fair to call anyone racist here based on what happened. But I don't see any harm in having conversation if there was decent reporting attached to it.
In other words "the end justifies the means" even if innocent people get ruined?
I think I've heard that rationale used somewhere before, I just can't place it...
Speaking in the specific context (of exposing racists) that I was (that I have to keep mentioning for some reason), If one person has been falsely identified as a racist and a ton more comparatively have been correctly identified as one, yes. However, I would not say this girl was "ruined" by any stretch of the imagination either- the idiots who may have been just looking for free food and were cool with robbing people look like the bad guys here. She made some money on GoFundMe, and she has her job back with an apology from Chipotle. I don't know what you classify as "ruined" but I don't think that's necessarily it.
Please elaborate.
In this instance all turned out well but as you state maybe on average more good than bad comes from mob justice but in the inverse, every innocent victim of mob justice doesn't make out as well as this example.
Also this person should never have been put through this.
Facts before action, otherwise it's just blind and can be indiscriminate.
I think on the bolded it's also worth noting that even though we have ample evidence suggesting her actions were the result of her knowing and having a history with the makers of the video, there are still people in the thread post-video questioning her integrity and implying her actions may have been influenced by racial prejudice; even when there's a high degree of likelihood of 'innocence' people still question whether you're 'truly' innocent and give power to slanderous claims. That's the sort of damage which is a lot more potent long-term than the immediate loss of the job (obviously she's gotten that back if accepted at this stage).
They officially offered her her job for real this time. She's also suing - from her GoFundMe:
Probably going for defamation. It's blatantly obvious it was never about policy, they (Chipotle, the press, the thieves) were painting her as a racist. She'll probably win, especially since Chipotle walked back their reasoning then admitted they were wrong.
Probably going for defamation. It's blatantly obvious it was never about policy, they (Chipotle, the press, the thieves) were painting her as a racist. She'll probably win, especially since Chipotle walked back their reasoning then admitted they were wrong.
What's the acceptable amount of collateral damage on an innocent person's life from the mob justice getting it wrong, then?
How can we best offer people of color a means of documenting and fighting racism in America?
Recording and posting instances of racism is fine but maybe we could wait just one day before deciding someone is a nazi and getting them fired.
That answer will vary from individual to individual of what they find acceptable or not, just to make it clear it's entirely subjective.
You don't get an answer to that question until you come up with flawless methods and tools with which people of color in America can seek racial justice. Sorry.
Of course. That's why I asked that person for their opinion.
I'd love to know your opinion, as well.
Ok, buddy.
I can't really put a number on it or anything, I guess it's just "I know it when I see it" in the sense that if I saw the majority of people that were being as exposed as racists actually not be racists, I would consider it a big problem worthy of derision.
What, like the flawless methods and tools of one persons selective video posted up on twitter?
Its fine to harrass a totally innocent person until someone comes up with an exemplary foolproof method with zero margin for error in the meantime?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
Dr. Wily has a good answer
So, 49.9% is your number of acceptable collateral damage.
Yikes
Okay though.
Also:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/us/hilary-brooke-apartment-patty-st-louis.html
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/25/us/permit-patty-san-francisco-trnd/index.html
https://heavy.com/news/2018/05/jennifer-schulte-bbq-becky/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...gail-calls-police-black-father-soccer-n921121
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pool-p...-speaks-out-assault-stephanie-sebby-stremple/
https://www.theroot.com/coupon-carl-calls-cops-on-black-woman-at-cvs-for-alle-1827610838
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/bag...ce-black-woman-damaged-luggage-214734984.html
https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/article220038470.html
http://time.com/5426067/cornerstore-caroline-backlash-sexual-assault-boy/
https://www.today.com/video/woman-c...sitting-white-children-1340768323606?v=raila&
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ation-black-florida-m-students-police-n908621
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk...-police-were-called-she-knocked-doors-n888916
I don't think we have to worry about "49.9%".
I see your yikes and I raise you a Boom. Now you respond with the number of people who have been claimed racists that got the evil social media mob after them and it turned out they weren't.
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Do you think people of color will lie about experiencing racism that often?
The idea is that you garner good will by not shaking down and embarrassing customers . Plus the food is already made.
Regarding call out culture. I do think it's important to document and call out racists. I just think we should be quicker to correct outselves when it's clear ou initial assumptions were wrong. Like its been how many days since the dine and dash tweets came out and some dude on this page is still concinced the manager is a racist. And several mods and posters had zero sympathy for the manager after the video got her fired despite her telling the truth about them failing to pay previously.
Like document and call out racism and racists when you see it, but have the basic decency to at least apologize, admit you were wrong and give half a shit about someone who got demonized, libeled, attacked, fired and didn't deserve it. My big issue is how many people in this thread couldn't even do that. You guys need to do better.
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I was responding to his use of "until a majority". I never said what you seem to be implying. Again, how many innocent people getting dragged by the mob are acceptable to get the results he linked to above? It's a simple question that neither of you can answer, apparently.
Well, I posted 11 stories, and then there's this one, so that would come out to about 9% (I am missing a ton though admittedly), so hey I'll gladly say I'm fine with 9% if you're so concerned with having a definitive answer.
You're trying really hard to frame things a certain way, I'll give you that, however there is a difference between thinking a situation in isolation is justified and thinking a pattern of behavior shouldn't be discounted due to the few times things go wrong,
https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...keep-calling-the-cops-on-black-people-699512/
Thank God racists are being exposed and held accountable.
Thank God racists are being exposed and held accountable.
I'm trying to "frame" that mob behaviours are some of the most disgusting depths humanity can sink to, and that there is no such thing as 'justified' collateral damage.
Protecting the innocent is vastly more important than punishing the guilty. In every scenario.
Your first thoughts about reading what happened to Millie bobby Brown should be "Thats disgusting. That should have never happened to her. That should never happen to anyone".
"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you."
You framed it yourself; you've said just a few posts above that you would find a situation where for every one hundred correct assessments of a situation where a 'guilty' party is caught in mob justice it's acceptable for nine of those people to have been innocent. I don't think much more framing is needed to think that's a pretty horrible mindset.
For reference, it is estimated between 2 and 10% of prisoners (in the United States) are innocent, and although there's quite a difference in being locked up in prison and tarred in public/potentially losing a job and having difficulties with employment in the future, I find it very difficult to accept that many people would find the same logic remotely acceptable or justifiable (to purposely exaggerate, a statement of "it's only 10%, you don't want murders, rapists, thieves, and more on the streets do you?" would rightly be shot down as disingenuous, and that same attitude is used to blatantly oppress minorities who are disproportionately affected). If you think justice should operate on the principal of minimising the risk of innocent people being falsely prosecuted even if it means guilty parties not facing consequences it should be clear why the logic you're proposing may not sit well with people and doesn't need any additional framing when there are quite a number of comparisons available to suggest that may be a bad idea.
All those PoC in those stories I linked were innocent and were harassed, I guess they don't matter as much though. All the minorities who have done nothing but exist in this country and are innocent yet are still victims of our shitty people and culture are innocent but you aren't worried about protecting them I guess.
We're not talking about prison. For all you know, I have an entirely different take on that with it being an entirely different scenario and all.