It's basically a parasite that's gone.German here: Good riddance! Please remove all the troops and take your nuclear bombs with you.
If you think 12,000 troops make the difference between Russia invading Central Europe or not, you're an idiot. They're not here for our benefit, these troops are here to drone brown people in the Middle East.
The economic impact is also vastly overstated. I was born in a city that had a US military base and when they moved out in the 90's-00's, guess what, the fucking barbwire was gone, the city became beautiful and nobody starved to death. The grounds that used to belong to US military now houses many IT companies.
I don't think anyone is going to invade Germany if we dismantle those bases and bring the troops home.While I also don't condone what the USA does in the Middle East stationing troops somewhere as a deterrent and to support your allies still has value. Just look at what happened in the Ukraine. That wouldn't have happened if the US had a base nearby.
I think nuclear proliferation is really really bad.Trump's weird "nuclear proliferation is worse than climate change" is instructions from his handler. Putin is going to negotiate a one sided nuclear arms deal with Trump. If he tries to accelerate that between now and November-January at least we can take some comfort in knowing the Fix is not definitely in.
I don't think anyone is going to invade Germany if we dismantle those bases and bring the troops home.
They are not defense in nature, they are just there serve to serve our war machine. Most of them are in the west of Germany, and I don't think a French invasion of Germany is a security concern the US should spend billions preparing for.
Not a bot, just recently was given posting privileges. Being anti American doesn't make me Russian, I am neither
I don't think that droning kids in Yemen and doing refueling stops on the way to Africa and Afghanistan (which is mostly what the US military we do in Germany these days) is protecting the Baltics.That's a rather simplistic and shortsighted way of looking at a complex geopolitical situation. These troops are not meant to just sit there and defend a hill somewhere until the enemy attacks.
They're stationed in germany because it's a central place in europe from where you can reach every possible theater of war, including the middle east. Of course Russia will not send troops to conquer a thriving state like Germany like it's 1910.
The big fear of the NATO was always that Putin goes after the weaker states like the Baltics, just like he did in the Ukraine and that he weakens the entirety of the EU step by step this way.
I don't think American soldiers are there at Germany's insistence. Certain NATO members like France and the Scandinavians don't want US bases, so Germany can follow by their example. Go home.
And that's a real principle?Some people need to get some real principles instead of just "orange man bad" and "putin bad". Maybe one day people here will think "US military bad" like most of the rest of the world.
Thinking military imperialism is bad is a principle, yes.
This. US propaganda is so deeply rooted in their culture that even progressive people admire the US military and show that "we superior others inferior" line of thinking.Some people need to get some real principles instead of just "orange man bad" and "putin bad". Maybe one day people here will think "US military bad" like most of the rest of the world.
Yep, we've got tanks, APCs, IFVs, guns, explosives, troops, and all other kinds of great things from the US and it makes us feel pretty fuckin good.Also don't worry, you have US military in the Blatics. I don't know exactly what their missions there, not sure Mike Pompeo told us, but you have American tanks in Lithuania now, for freedom.
I think nuclear proliferation is really really bad.
Trump is a fucking idiot, but nuclear disarmament is good.
Very good even.
Getting to zero nukes can be a tad tricky, but I think if the US just retired 90% of its nuclear arsenal today nothing bad will happen. We're just gonna save money and reduce the chance of a nuclear holocaust.
I don't think that droning kids in Yemen and doing refueling stops on the way to Africa and Afghanistan (which is mostly what the US military we do in Germany these days) is protecting the Baltics.
Also don't worry, you have US military in the Blatics. I don't know exactly what their missions there, not sure Mike Pompeo told us, but you have American tanks in Lithuania now, for freedom.
The US military always say it's protecting peace everywhere it goes, but I don't buy it, we spend a stupid amount of money on that shit and I don't think it makes anyone safe.
I don't think Russian military pose a threat to Germany, but if you're so concerned, why not sit down with Russia and have some actual peace talks. Our answer to all our problem is more military and I don't think it has been working terribly well.
Some people need to get some real principles instead of just "orange man bad" and "putin bad". Maybe one day people here will think "US military bad" like most of the rest of the world.
I always felt that we can stay in German bases if Germany wants us there, and it would be really great if Germany decided how many American troops should be stationed in Germany rather than America.Yep, we've got tanks, APCs, IFVs, guns, explosives, troops, and all other kinds of great things from the US and it makes us feel pretty fuckin good.
The mission is just training while being an overall deterrent to the Russian forces. Anything US here is always on rotation. Come in, stay for a few months doing training with our and other countries' troops, leave and have the next batch of troops come in and repeat.
Ramstein is mainly used as a hub for US military transportation. But apart from those carrying out activities at and through the air base, there is little public information available about what else takes place there. Even the few details about the suspected coordination of drone missions from the base took some time to surface.
In 2016, Germany's deputy minister for Europe, Michael Roth, reported in the German parliament that the US had informed the Foreign Ministry the base would be used as a telecommunications relay station for data traffic with unmanned aircraft. This means that radio signals are automatically received and forwarded on.
[...]
From the US, the distance to directly control drone missions in Pakistan, Afghanistan or Yemen is too far. This is why the US depends on the Ramstein base to forward data from the US on to its intended destination. In addition, US military personnel plan and supervise air operations in Ramstein and also follow up with evaluations, Roth reported.
Until Roth gave his report, the government always insisted that it had "no knowledge" of US operations that take place at Ramstein.
For human rights organizations such as Amnesty International, however, it is clear that with the available knowledge on the coordination of drone attacks from Germany, the government is assisting the actions of the US.
In a statement released by the organization in 2018, it said that the situation is "even more acute given recent reports that President [Donald] Trump has rolled back restrictions governing the US's use of armed drones and lethal force abroad and dramatically expanded the administration's lethal drone operations."
Amnesty published an analysis of the roles and involvement of European states in US drone missions. According to the report, the German government is not doing enough to ensure that it does not aid drone attacks that violate international law.
To give you guys some perspective on German opinions according to a poll conducted two years ago, 42% of Germans wanted the US army to leave Germany, 37% wanted them to stay (the rest was undecided / no opinion). On the political spectrum it's mostly people voting for leftist parties that oppose US presence (but also the far-right AfD, for different reasons of course), while conservatives and centrists (so our government supporters) are more inclined to support US presence. [Source in German]
Here is also an article that discusses what the US Army's biggest base in Ramstein is actually for and why it's so controversial in Germany:
Like I said in my earlier post, the US army is in Germany to wage war in the Middle East.
Can you imagine? Our government acts like it has no clue what the US army is doing on OUR territory. Would Americans ever accept a foreign nation on their soil doing secret military operations? Allies or not, this is just unacceptable.
Well, it's all lies anyway, because we do not want to be held liable for US war crimes.
Not a single solitary German was involved in the decision, not a single solitary US miltary base is getting closed in Germany and Trump openly embraces imperialism, torture and war crimes.
I know anti imperialists are usually anti american first and anti imperialistic 732th, but the amount of spinning makes me dizzy.
apparently you are dizzy, because your post here is just contradiction after contradiction: this move is bad because Germany wasn't involved but lmao if you think it's going to have any significant impact, Trump is bad because he embraces imperialism but lmao I hate anti-imperialists
also, you didn't actually respond to anything the post you quoted said... it was just laying out a framework for understanding why US troops bouncing from Germany would be more a positive than a negative
you have, though, inadvertently tapped into an unfortunate truth: it's definitely hard to be coherently anti-imperialism without also being at least a touch anti-American, for embracing a imperialistic move meant to punish a country
A imperialistic move, done by a Imperialistic President who openly embraces imperialism, war crimes and torture, which will not limit the amount of imperialism, torture and warcrimes, done for the purpose of punishing a country for not doing enough for imperialism, is getting applauded by you because you hate America.
If you think 12,000 troops make the difference between Russia invading Central Europe or not, you're an idiot.
As expected.Don't worry my fellow Americans, only some shitty bases around Stuttgart are gonna be closed. Ramstein Air Base will of course NOT be closed, so you can keep applauding to your troops for drone-striking brown people all around the world in your name and for FREEDOM.
Friend, if you really don't want them, we here in Eastern Europe will gladly take them. Send the nukes too.German here: Good riddance! Please remove all the troops and take your nuclear bombs with you.
Does this mean no more drone strikes being controlled from German soil? If so: good riddance, and get the fuck out of here.
And Germans will keep not giving a fuck.Yeah, that aint going away, the US will keep bombing weddings and killing civilians , women and children among them, from german soil.
If Trump would move all troops to Belgium/Poland would that also end NATO?You have to consider that the very moment Germany would kick out all of the US troops, NATO would end to exist. And believe me, a lot of countries neighboring Germany would be very pissed, should this ever happen.
If Trump would move all troops to Belgium/Poland would that also end NATO?
If Germany got a far right/left government and decided to leave NATO, would that end NATO?
The only one that can end the NATO is the US and that is obviously not in their interest.
Is it though? The US is gonna be challenged by China in the near future, not by any European country. It would be way smarter to invest into new alliances with Asian countries that are sceptical or eeven afraid of a rising China. NATO is also expensive as fuck for the US taxpayer. But hey, Americans and smart decisions right? 🤣
I think this is generally true everywhere the US has bases.To give you guys some perspective on German opinions according to a poll conducted two years ago, 42% of Germans wanted the US army to leave Germany, 37% wanted them to stay (the rest was undecided / no opinion). On the political spectrum it's mostly people voting for leftist parties that oppose US presence (but also the far-right AfD, for different reasons of course), while conservatives and centrists (so our government supporters) are more inclined to support US presence. [Source in German]
Germanys geographic position and level of infrastructure is key to any credible NATO deployment without it NATO is uselessIf Trump would move all troops to Belgium/Poland would that also end NATO?
If Germany got a far right/left government and decided to leave NATO, would that end NATO?
The only one that can end the NATO is the US and that is obviously not in their interest.
The US military has a long and proud tradition of following what civilian leadership tell them to (it is by far the best thing about the US military and I don't think Americans understand that it's not normal). If a president decide to close Ramstein and bring the troops home, you'll probably get some right wing think tanks and Lockheed Martin execs writing op eds in the NYT about this is a gift to the current boogeyman we justify our defense budget with, but I don't think the military is going to do a coup to keep an airfield in Germany.Yes it would. That's why Ramstein and other actually important bases will stay no matter what Clown sits in the White House.
Some people need to get some real principles instead of just "orange man bad" and "putin bad". Maybe one day people here will think "US military bad" like most of the rest of the world.
And conservatives and war hawks in the US screamed about every single one of those withdrawals like it dooming the free world.Also, keep in mind that withdrawing troops from Germany is nothing new or the end of the world. In the late 80s, there were a quarter million US troops stationed here and from 2006 to 2018 for example, the number already more than halved from 72.400 to 33.250 (source).
Lol of course people don't use that particular phrase. But you have loads of people on this forum that have the principle that almost anything is fine as long as it goes against Trump or gets him out of office. Yes, of course he's total garbage and yes, of course it's important we get him out of office, but that doesn't mean you just take whatever position that's opposite of his and forgo all of your principles just to spite Trump. There's loads of that here, just look at all the TLP shit.I don't think I've ever seen that particular phrase used when it wasn't part of a bad-faith argument.
A imperialistic move, done by a Imperialistic President who openly embraces imperialism, war crimes and torture, which will not limit the amount of imperialism, torture and warcrimes, done for the purpose of punishing a country for not doing enough for imperialism, is getting applauded by you because you hate America.