Cyberpunk 2077 Night City WIRE: Episode 5 |OT| Time moves in one direction, memory in another [Media Impressions, Console Footage & Discussion]

[Kyuuji]

If some people are lacking the context, the original unfiltered back-and-forth is pretty straightforward and easy to follow.

👇

Speaking of the OT.

Will there be a blurb in it welcoming the Trans community and while there maybe some questionable content regarding them, that they are wanted in the game and taking part in the Conversation for both the positive and negative?

After how things have gone, maybe a special blurb even if it's near the end and not at the start, it maybe more welcoming than just a staff post?

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For some reason this message says you Quoted me, did you by chance and the system ate it?

Just want to make sure as I know many of the Trans Community would appreciate the solidarity and you speaking up they are welcome in the OT opening posts.

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No, I didn't quote you. I've been having a bit if that too, lately. A notification telling me I was quoted - yet clicking on it reveals nothing🤷‍♂️

In response to your query - everyone is welcome and hopefully everyone will enjoy the Cyberpunk 2077 OT.

Click to shrink...

That isn't the question that was asked.

I'm asking you directly, will you show solidarity to us, your Trans peers and be different than Reddit and other places that aren't willing to admit there may be issues.

Will you take the time in the OT and opening post to make sure that we feel welcome, not ostracized and that you want to hear our feedback on how we where handled after this marketing campaign?

Does it have to be a Mod? Or can this fan community at least be willing to admit there maybe issues, but you still want us here and to hear what we have to say?

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Please recognize Black Chamber, I am not asking for any lenience on the Modding, make sure it's strong.

All I'm asking is you and this thread stand in basic human rights solidarity. That no matter the lead up, we are valued and you support us in being heard.

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And I'm answering you directly - ResetEra is a welcoming place where everyone is free to choose what threads they may be interested in to click on and enjoy.

I, as well as the other supremely talented individuals bringing the Cyberpunk 2077 OT to life want nothing else, but to have it enjoyed by anyone and everyone willing to click on it to give it the chance to enthrall them.

Everyone is welcome in the Cyberpunk 2077 OT - even if they don't like the game, the company making it or otherwise. If a user decides to place it on "ignore" for whatever reason; that is fine as well. I only hope for enlightened discussion and fun to be had in it. Hopefully everyone will at least give it the chance to do so.

I hope that you will enjoy the Cyberpunk 2077 OT, as a lot of hard work, passion and the sincere endeavor of it's enjoyment were the paramount driving principles in it's design🙏

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Everyone did not have our community exploited for marketing Black Chamber.

Even if the Manticore add was positive or negative they exploited my community to sell this game, they have highlighted with their cosplaying.

So your response is you can use us to market your product, but in response to the pain and feelings of rejection you can and will not even have a small paragraph welcoming us directly?

For all of you people that have come in to Kyuuji's thread and said how you hear us, but you still want this game, you are the people that need to see this.

All I asked for was a small paragraph to say we hear you and want you, to us who have been harmed.

We can't even be given that after everything.

This is why Transphobia exists, because it's just this acceptable. This isn't the game, this is a forum thread with people who we are suppose to share a passion and love for the hobby and yet when we are exploited, we couldn't even be given this small thing in return.

Mods this is also to you. Look at how your community can't even be given this, there is no listening or teaching like you so desperately want to claim.

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I have answered your question and now you are antagonizing me for doing so.

Everyone is welcome in the Cyberpunk 2077 OT.

Everyone💯

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[cabelhigh]

I don't normally post about these issues but here is my opinion on it.

A trans-awareness statement should be posted on the OP of the OT, however attacking black chamber is not the way to do it, at that point it's going away from the whole reason we are doing a Transright movement.

We should be able to have a civil conversation about what is going on instead of what is happening right now.

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A "civil conversation"...Black Chamber started things off "uncivily". So if you want to direct your ire at the state of the thread maybe start with him and why he finds it so hard to include a paragraph on trans rights in the OP

 

[Deleted member 283]

Wouldn't that mean he actively pushes people away? I don't think he's doing that.

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How is he not pushing people away by refusing to answer a simple question, a simple request, and just beating around the bush instead? A flat out "no" would be better than what he's doing because at least that would be an answer, if an unfortunate one, rather than hiding behind all lives matter rhetoric and refusing to answer anything. Not sure what that's supposed to do BUT push people away.

 

[Nameless]

Having had a look at Black Chamber's post history, they've been dismissive on topics of problematic representation before, and I do not believe they are engaging with those concerned about transphobia in good faith.

These elements are part of the discussion when it comes to this game, and to ignore them in favour of a purely hype-based OT that reads like wilfully ignorant PR would betray Era's purported mission statement of being an inclusive forum.

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Chamber 100% supported the thread bans and notices. By what metric are we determining he's "doing enough" to show support? Who decides if the paragraph people want him to write is enough or hits all the necessary beats? If someone wanted to draft something to spread more awareness, I see no reason why he'd suddenly oppose that given he's been open to everything else thus far.

 

[Tappin Brews]

I would assume that the trans community wants the thread creator to do it on their own and for it to be acknowledged, not that mods hard to force them to do it.

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i mean, of course. but like, thats either happening or not (right now it looks like its not) and i'd rather not see the thread continue the way it is until the OT is posted - justified or not

 

[Xando]

Can mods please put the paragraph in the OP before this warzone escalates even further.

I fear this thread and the OT is gonna go nuclear over the next week.

 

[cabelhigh]

Chamber 100% supported the thread bans and notices. By what metric are we determining he's "doing enough" to show support? Who decides if the paragraph people want him to write is enough or hits all the necessary beats? If someone wanted to draft something to spread more awareness, I see no reason why he'd suddenly oppose that given he's been open to everything else thus far.

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See receipts above in Kyuuji's post

 

[Deleted member 283]

If some people are lacking the context, the original unfiltered back-and-forth is pretty straightforward and easy to follow.

👇

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All of this.

 

[Meelow]

A "civil conversation"...Black Chamber started things off "uncivily". So if you want to direct your ire at the state of the thread maybe start with him and why he finds it so hard to include a paragraph on trans rights in the OP

Click to shrink...

He said "
Everyone is welcome in the Cyberpunk 2077 OT.

Everyone💯 "

Which is more of a non-answer, however, that doesn't mean he won't include a transright statement in the OT, I guess we will have to see.

 

[vestan]

This is now the second time people have openly taken potshots at Black Chamber 's character. Listen. Me, Black Chamber and Sophia have been working closely on this OT ever since Kyuuji 's thread went up. We even approached Android Sophia first regarding CDPR's transphobia and the OT. She can attest to Black Chamber's character. We've always planned on including a written message on the circumstances surrounding this game and a link to Kyuuji's thread.

What's fucking ridiculous is people taking the mick and always attempting to interrogate or cross-examine him in the one thread where he just wants to talk about the game. It's one thing to bring up CDPR's shittyness to inform people but it's another to just attack him in plain fuckin' view which a certain poster I won't name has been doing for months now (I've already reported your vile, vile fucking post by the way).

People are drawing battlelines as if we aren't all on the same side here. It's ridiculous.

 

[cabelhigh]

He said "
Everyone is welcome in the Cyberpunk 2077 OT.

Everyone💯 "

Which is more of a non-answer, however, that doesn't mean he won't include a transright statement in the OT, I guess we will have to see.

Click to shrink...

Full recipts are in Kyuuji's post at the top of the page, please refer to that

 

[Android Sophia]

We're temporarily locking this thread due to the number of reports that it's generating. However...

This is now the second time people have openly taken potshots at Black Chamber 's character. Listen. Me, Black Chamber and Sophia have been working closely on this OT ever since Kyuuji 's thread went up. We even approached Android Sophia first regarding CDPR's transphobia and the OT. She can attest to Black Chamber's character. We've always planned on including a written message on the circumstances surrounding this game and a link to Kyuuji's thread.

Click to shrink...

I can confirm that Black Chamber and vestan have been working with me on this, and that they've always intended to include something. I reached back out to them in early-to-mid October in regards to the thread lock and staff post, and they've been nothing but fully supportive. They've even proposed some fantastic ideas of their own of their own volition, which we intend to incorporate.

Safe to say, I'm a little bit disappointed to wake up and see how this thread has gone. We'll be re-opening it after we've reviewed the reports extensively.

 

[AliceAmber]

Thread unlocked. For the record, Black Chamber and Vestan had long been planning acknowledgment of the controversy with CDPR and support for the trans community in their OT. We spoke with them several hours ago and re-confirmed that and we do believe that was always their plan. While they could have communicated this publicly clearer and sooner, it was never in question.

Vestan did get too defensive and will serve a temporary ban for it, but we want to be clear that the main thing everyone wanted (acknowledgment from the thread creators in the OT) is happening and was always going to happen. This discussion did not have to become about our fellow members, and going forward it must not be.

For sake of clarity: Criticism and discussion of the upcoming OT and its scope is fine. The issues surrounding the CDPR's transphobia are important, and knowing how they'll be handled in the OT is also important. That was always fine. But personal attacks on other members is not. Ad hominem hasn't helped anyone or anything about this situation.

In the future the staff will work more closely with the makers of contentious OTs to ensure that these things are communicated better. Things did not have to escalate to this point.

 

[Meelow]

Good post.

 

[Dennis8K]

Thank you to

Black Chamber
vestan
Android Sophia

and any other users or moderators/admins that are involved in crafting the OT. I am sure it isn't easy.

I am very much looking forward to the OT and I am sure it will be both spectacular and highlight the criticisms that have been raised against CDPR.

 

[Rodrigues solitaire]

Good post.

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I agree.

 

[SDBurton]

Thank you to

Black Chamber
vestan
Android Sophia

and any other users or moderators/admins that are involved in crafting the OT. I am sure it isn't easy.

I am very much looking forward to the OT and I am sure it will be both spectacular and highlight the criticisms that have been raised against CDPR.

Click to shrink...

Seconded.

 

[Lashley]

Good post, Alice

Thank you to

Black Chamber
vestan
Android Sophia

and any other users or moderators/admins that are involved in crafting the OT. I am sure it isn't easy.

I am very much looking forward to the OT and I am sure it will be both spectacular and highlight the criticisms that have been raised against CDPR.

Click to shrink...

Thirded

 

[mujun]

I'm looking forward to the OT and I'm glad that the trans members will get the acknowledgement that they asked for.

 

[Fart Master]

Thank you to

Black Chamber
vestan
Android Sophia

and any other users or moderators/admins that are involved in crafting the OT. I am sure it isn't easy.

I am very much looking forward to the OT and I am sure it will be both spectacular and highlight the criticisms that have been raised against CDPR.

Click to shrink...

 

[Mojazi]

Thank u Black Chamber for your passion and dedication and the others who are creating the OT, can't wait for it so we can all enjoy the game

 

[Ivory Samoan]

I'm just keen to know what benches I can sit on now, legit.

Also, great post Alice: really looking forward to the OT also.

 

[NeoBob688]

So to confirm I can play 7 PM on Dec 9 USA EST?

 

[SJRB]

Glad we're back online. Mad props to Black Chamber.

HYPED

 

[Son of Sparda]

Thank you to

Black Chamber
vestan
Android Sophia

and any other users or moderators/admins that are involved in crafting the OT. I am sure it isn't easy.

I am very much looking forward to the OT and I am sure it will be both spectacular and highlight the criticisms that have been raised against CDPR.

Click to shrink...

Yea, I wanted to echo the same sentiment.

 

[Lashley]

So to confirm I can play 7 PM on Dec 9 USA EST?

Click to shrink...

On PC? Yeah

 

[deepFlaw]

Well, here goes then.

So, I had written this allllll up before the thread was locked... only for it to be locked right before I hit post. I have spent even more time editing it and tempered my feelings somewhat, given that would be in a slightly different situation than before it closed. Let me be clear that the following is not a personal attack on Gabe, it's a criticism of what I view to be a kind of harmful behavior in these threads that shouldn't be acceptable. And I think it is much better for this discussion and this site more broadly that l voice it than to not, even if they have already been banned. Particularly as I feel their ban reasoning - while certainly true, and the ban itself is appreciated - does not fully capture the negative impact of their behavior in relation to trans people here.

-

We are constantly being told to educate ourselves and even in this very thread to do research . Yet because your research does not have the outcome that person wants , you are now bothering marginalized groups on this site and intruding on AsianEra .
You couldnt make this shit up .

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So I am not a member of AsianEra myself. I apologize if I was speaking out of turn by saying that. But to be absolutely 100% clear, what I was referring to was not Gabe doing research or asking for input on this issue - it was specifically seeing him bump the AsianEra thread to ask for validation of his posts. The intrusion I meant was intrusion into a community thread, not into discussion of issues relating to that community more broadly.

And that is a thread that's dead because its community was pushed off this site. Just like TransEra has to a significant degree. And, frankly, the reason I'm posting this is that I feel the reason people are leaving is partially due to behavior like Gabe's, which is why I responded as harshly as I did.

Is him posting in this thread, and additionally him doing research elsewhere, bad in isolation? No, educating yourself is 100% a good thing in general, you're totally right, and it's obviously not wrong to politely ask if you're handling something right. But he was not really doing that just as a way to improve himself or avoid hurting others, and that is my problem. Everything he did in this thread was - whether he realizes it or not - him fighting to discredit a trans woman criticizing transphobia, all over an offhand link to another article, claiming her writing must be perfect if she wants to be heard. This is a ridiculous standard that we don't hold cis writers to, the thing he was complaining about being wrong would not actually hurt the writer's point in anything close to a meaningful way, and she was literally just repeating and linking to a criticism other people have made besides. And while it's true that some shitheads out there may point out any discrepancies in criticism... why do we have to care about that edge case? Those people will do everything possible to find an issue with criticism, so worrying about it too much is kinda pointless; that has now been talked about at length in the general thread for this game's transphobia.

And, unfortunately, "worrying about it too much" happened to a fault. Because to me, Gabe became the one enforcing that standard and outright insulting the writer on those grounds. There is a gigantic difference between going "oh, that's kinda off, unfortunate that it may cause problems if someone uses it as a vector to discredit the writer"... and leaning fully into literally doing the same thing he was supposedly worried others would do, insulting and discrediting the writer over it. This is not voicing possible concerns, this is fully becoming the person going out of their way to really dig into this minor issue with the article and argue about it. Repeatedly calling the article and its writer "lazy and unprofessional, if not harmful to the cause". Because of an offhand link to another article. Despite the fact that who he was disagreeing with, if not outright arguing with, about it here included other trans people saying they valued the article.

And so if people (understandably!) skimming past this wall of text read nothing else in this post, please read this. Sincerely, what is actually "harmful to the cause": the trans writer who nailed 99% of their criticism, or the cis person making a big deal about its tiny issues despite trans people liking it? Is it more harmful to potentially mess up a bit of lore, or to make trans users uncomfortable due to how incredibly quick you were to turn on Stacey Henley yourself? When you compliment a trans person's ability to write criticism in the same breath as you harshly insult another's over such a minor issue, are you actually giving a compliment or just showing just how conditional your support of their efforts is, the tightrope they're walking to earn your support? This is what I hope Gabe and users like him think through. That is how posting like this makes this site worse for trans people. Even now I feel I am being a bit too polite about how I felt when seeing people very politely and carefully say why they valued the article to Gabe, only for him to not understand this dynamic and insist on this behavior. Let's just say that it made me very uncomfortable. And to be honest, I was already made uncomfortable by some of his prior posts about this game's transphobia even before this specific discussion for similar reasons; I felt that discussion had a similar dynamic of him not really respecting what he was being told about his strict standards, but it was allowed to happen regardless.

(Meanwhile... it should be said the Kotaku article is also written by an Asian person - not to mention it's also written by a trans person! - and is accounting the criticisms of other people they know, so at best the research he did has found that a marginalized group is not a monolith. While the opinions of the people he consulted are certainly valid, it is also true that no amount of research makes that article objectively wrong, that offhand link objectively incorrect. Sisi Jiang's criticism is also valid, Stacey Henley's criticism is also valid. And if we agree that's the case, valid criticism all around, the question becomes: what at all is gained by going out of your way to specifically seek opposing opinions when you are presented with this criticism, beyond validation for the insults you've already posted? To that end, I have my doubts that he presented this context properly enough to the people he consulted - not out of malice, but because I do not think he understood the situation enough himself to do so. I kinda doubt they would have told him the things they did, at least not without giving a broader explanation, if they knew his intent was to discredit another person's criticism as fuel for a forum argument. And this is why I felt taking this further by going to the AsianEra thread was intrusive.)

I don't think Gabe knows all this is was what he was doing. I would easily think he meant well and wanted to support trans posters! And I don't intend to insult him here. I absolutely hope that despite his ban, he reads this and learns from it. Given the ban, I moreso hope other people read it and learn from it too. And hopefully, when he's unbanned posts in a way that supports marginalized people here without making them feel uncomfortable. So... yeah, educate yourself, absolutely, but do it for its own merits, not to complain about other people's criticism and not while making people directly affected by what you're discussing uncomfortable.

 

[wafflebrain]

Nothing but love for Black Chamber over here, appreciate all the work you've done mate. Hope you feel comfortable coming back and joining us again before launch.

So to confirm I can play 7 PM on Dec 9 USA EST?

Click to shrink...

On Stadia and PC yeah 👍

 

[Bansai]

Thank you to

Black Chamber
vestan
Android Sophia

and any other users or moderators/admins that are involved in crafting the OT. I am sure it isn't easy.

I am very much looking forward to the OT and I am sure it will be both spectacular and highlight the criticisms that have been raised against CDPR.

Click to shrink...

Black Chamber 🤟

Glad we're back online. Mad props to Black Chamber.

HYPED

Click to shrink...

5 more days, we're almost there.

 

[Rodrigues solitaire]

Well, here goes then.

So, I had written this allllll up before the thread was locked... only for it to be locked right before I hit post. I have spent even more time editing it and tempered my feelings somewhat, given that would be in a slightly different situation than before it closed. Let me be clear that the following is not a personal attack on Gabe, it's a criticism of what I view to be a kind of harmful behavior in these threads that shouldn't be acceptable. And I think it is much better for this discussion and this site more broadly that l voice it than to not, even if they have already been banned. Particularly as I feel their ban reasoning - while certainly true, and the ban itself is appreciated - does not fully capture the negative impact of their behavior in relation to trans people here.

-



So I am not a member of AsianEra myself. I apologize if I was speaking out of turn by saying that. But to be absolutely 100% clear, what I was referring to was not Gabe doing research or asking for input on this issue - it was specifically seeing him bump the AsianEra thread to ask for validation of his posts. The intrusion I meant was intrusion into a community thread, not into discussion of issues relating to that community more broadly.

And that is a thread that's dead because its community was pushed off this site. Just like TransEra has to a significant degree. And, frankly, the reason I'm posting this is that I feel the reason people are leaving is partially due to behavior like Gabe's, which is why I responded as harshly as I did.

Is him posting in this thread, and additionally him doing research elsewhere, bad in isolation? No, educating yourself is 100% a good thing in general, you're totally right, and it's obviously not wrong to politely ask if you're handling something right. But he was not really doing that just as a way to improve himself or avoid hurting others, and that is my problem. Everything he did in this thread was - whether he realizes it or not - him fighting to discredit a trans woman criticizing transphobia, all over an offhand link to another article, claiming her writing must be perfect if she wants to be heard. This is a ridiculous standard that we don't hold cis writers to, the thing he was complaining about being wrong would not actually hurt the writer's point in anything close to a meaningful way, and she was literally just repeating and linking to a criticism other people have made besides. And while it's true that some shitheads out there may point out any discrepancies in criticism... why do we have to care about that edge case? Those people will do everything possible to find an issue with criticism, so worrying about it too much is kinda pointless; that has now been talked about at length in the general thread for this game's transphobia.

And, unfortunately, "worrying about it too much" happened to a fault. Because to me, Gabe became the one enforcing that standard and outright insulting the writer on those grounds. There is a gigantic difference between going "oh, that's kinda off, unfortunate that it may cause problems if someone uses it as a vector to discredit the writer"... and leaning fully into literally doing the same thing he was supposedly worried others would do, insulting and discrediting the writer over it. This is not voicing possible concerns, this is fully becoming the person going out of their way to really dig into this minor issue with the article and argue about it. Repeatedly calling the article and its writer "lazy and unprofessional, if not harmful to the cause". Because of an offhand link to another article. Despite the fact that who he was disagreeing with, if not outright arguing with, about it here included other trans people saying they valued the article.

And so if people (understandably!) skimming past this wall of text read nothing else in this post, please read this. Sincerely, what is actually "harmful to the cause": the trans writer who nailed 99% of their criticism, or the cis person making a big deal about its tiny issues despite trans people liking it? Is it more harmful to potentially mess up a bit of lore, or to make trans users uncomfortable due to how incredibly quick you were to turn on Stacey Henley yourself? When you compliment a trans person's ability to write criticism in the same breath as you harshly insult another's over such a minor issue, are you actually giving a compliment or just showing just how conditional your support of their efforts is, the tightrope they're walking to earn your support? This is what I hope Gabe and users like him think through. That is how posting like this makes this site worse for trans people. Even now I feel I am being a bit too polite about how I felt when seeing people very politely and carefully say why they valued the article to Gabe, only for him to not understand this dynamic and insist on this behavior. Let's just say that it made me very uncomfortable. And to be honest, I was already made uncomfortable by some of his prior posts about this game's transphobia even before this specific discussion for similar reasons; I felt that discussion had a similar dynamic of him not really respecting what he was being told about his strict standards, but it was allowed to happen regardless.

(Meanwhile... it should be said the Kotaku article is also written by an Asian person - not to mention it's also written by a trans person! - and is accounting the criticisms of other people they know, so at best the research he did has found that a marginalized group is not a monolith. While the opinions of the people he consulted are certainly valid, it is also true that no amount of research makes that article objectively wrong, that offhand link objectively incorrect. Sisi Jiang's criticism is also valid, Stacey Henley's criticism is also valid. And if we agree that's the case, valid criticism all around, the question becomes: what at all is gained by going out of your way to specifically seek opposing opinions when you are presented with this criticism, beyond validation for the insults you've already posted? To that end, I have my doubts that he presented this context properly enough to the people he consulted - not out of malice, but because I do not think he understood the situation enough himself to do so. I kinda doubt they would have told him the things they did, at least not without giving a broader explanation, if they knew his intent was to discredit another person's criticism as fuel for a forum argument. And this is why I felt taking this further by going to the AsianEra thread was intrusive.)

I don't think Gabe knows all this is was what he was doing. I would easily think he meant well and wanted to support trans posters! And I don't intend to insult him here. I absolutely hope that despite his ban, he reads this and learns from it. Given the ban, I moreso hope other people read it and learn from it too. And hopefully, when he's unbanned posts in a way that supports marginalized people here without making them feel uncomfortable. So... yeah, educate yourself, absolutely, but do it for its own merits, not to complain about other people's criticism and not while making people directly affected by what you're discussing uncomfortable.

Click to shrink...

Good post.

 

[rras1994]

Well, here goes then.

So, I had written this allllll up before the thread was locked... only for it to be locked right before I hit post. I have spent even more time editing it and tempered my feelings somewhat, given that would be in a slightly different situation than before it closed. Let me be clear that the following is not a personal attack on Gabe, it's a criticism of what I view to be a kind of harmful behavior in these threads that shouldn't be acceptable. And I think it is much better for this discussion and this site more broadly that l voice it than to not, even if they have already been banned. Particularly as I feel their ban reasoning - while certainly true, and the ban itself is appreciated - does not fully capture the negative impact of their behavior in relation to trans people here.

-



So I am not a member of AsianEra myself. I apologize if I was speaking out of turn by saying that. But to be absolutely 100% clear, what I was referring to was not Gabe doing research or asking for input on this issue - it was specifically seeing him bump the AsianEra thread to ask for validation of his posts. The intrusion I meant was intrusion into a community thread, not into discussion of issues relating to that community more broadly.

And that is a thread that's dead because its community was pushed off this site. Just like TransEra has to a significant degree. And, frankly, the reason I'm posting this is that I feel the reason people are leaving is partially due to behavior like Gabe's, which is why I responded as harshly as I did.

Is him posting in this thread, and additionally him doing research elsewhere, bad in isolation? No, educating yourself is 100% a good thing in general, you're totally right, and it's obviously not wrong to politely ask if you're handling something right. But he was not really doing that just as a way to improve himself or avoid hurting others, and that is my problem. Everything he did in this thread was - whether he realizes it or not - him fighting to discredit a trans woman criticizing transphobia, all over an offhand link to another article, claiming her writing must be perfect if she wants to be heard. This is a ridiculous standard that we don't hold cis writers to, the thing he was complaining about being wrong would not actually hurt the writer's point in anything close to a meaningful way, and she was literally just repeating and linking to a criticism other people have made besides. And while it's true that some shitheads out there may point out any discrepancies in criticism... why do we have to care about that edge case? Those people will do everything possible to find an issue with criticism, so worrying about it too much is kinda pointless; that has now been talked about at length in the general thread for this game's transphobia.

And, unfortunately, "worrying about it too much" happened to a fault. Because to me, Gabe became the one enforcing that standard and outright insulting the writer on those grounds. There is a gigantic difference between going "oh, that's kinda off, unfortunate that it may cause problems if someone uses it as a vector to discredit the writer"... and leaning fully into literally doing the same thing he was supposedly worried others would do, insulting and discrediting the writer over it. This is not voicing possible concerns, this is fully becoming the person going out of their way to really dig into this minor issue with the article and argue about it. Repeatedly calling the article and its writer "lazy and unprofessional, if not harmful to the cause". Because of an offhand link to another article. Despite the fact that who he was disagreeing with, if not outright arguing with, about it here included other trans people saying they valued the article.

And so if people (understandably!) skimming past this wall of text read nothing else in this post, please read this. Sincerely, what is actually "harmful to the cause": the trans writer who nailed 99% of their criticism, or the cis person making a big deal about its tiny issues despite trans people liking it? Is it more harmful to potentially mess up a bit of lore, or to make trans users uncomfortable due to how incredibly quick you were to turn on Stacey Henley yourself? When you compliment a trans person's ability to write criticism in the same breath as you harshly insult another's over such a minor issue, are you actually giving a compliment or just showing just how conditional your support of their efforts is, the tightrope they're walking to earn your support? This is what I hope Gabe and users like him think through. That is how posting like this makes this site worse for trans people. Even now I feel I am being a bit too polite about how I felt when seeing people very politely and carefully say why they valued the article to Gabe, only for him to not understand this dynamic and insist on this behavior. Let's just say that it made me very uncomfortable. And to be honest, I was already made uncomfortable by some of his prior posts about this game's transphobia even before this specific discussion for similar reasons; I felt that discussion had a similar dynamic of him not really respecting what he was being told about his strict standards, but it was allowed to happen regardless.

(Meanwhile... it should be said the Kotaku article is also written by an Asian person - not to mention it's also written by a trans person! - and is accounting the criticisms of other people they know, so at best the research he did has found that a marginalized group is not a monolith. While the opinions of the people he consulted are certainly valid, it is also true that no amount of research makes that article objectively wrong, that offhand link objectively incorrect. Sisi Jiang's criticism is also valid, Stacey Henley's criticism is also valid. And if we agree that's the case, valid criticism all around, the question becomes: what at all is gained by going out of your way to specifically seek opposing opinions when you are presented with this criticism, beyond validation for the insults you've already posted? To that end, I have my doubts that he presented this context properly enough to the people he consulted - not out of malice, but because I do not think he understood the situation enough himself to do so. I kinda doubt they would have told him the things they did, at least not without giving a broader explanation, if they knew his intent was to discredit another person's criticism as fuel for a forum argument. And this is why I felt taking this further by going to the AsianEra thread was intrusive.)

I don't think Gabe knows all this is was what he was doing. I would easily think he meant well and wanted to support trans posters! And I don't intend to insult him here. I absolutely hope that despite his ban, he reads this and learns from it. Given the ban, I moreso hope other people read it and learn from it too. And hopefully, when he's unbanned posts in a way that supports marginalized people here without making them feel uncomfortable. So... yeah, educate yourself, absolutely, but do it for its own merits, not to complain about other people's criticism and not while making people directly affected by what you're discussing uncomfortable.

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very very good post

 

[Kyuuji]

Good to have confirmation that there's no central validation or justification for deriding and mocking our bodies. Fetishizing them and using them to promote the game. Just treated as dispensable trash, deemed appropriate set dressing to up the "edge" of Night City. What an utterly pathetic and harmful waste of setting and potential.

 

[PhazonBlazer]

How many reviews will have "breath taking" in the title. I think at least 20.

 

[Magneto]

Getting my 3080 tomorrow, which means that i'll play the game on day one, hype is real.

 

[Mojazi]

Glad we're back online. Mad props to Black Chamber.

HYPED

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V more days to go!!!

 

[Mercador]

Is there a thread where we can guess the MC? I would say 78.

 

[Kiryani]

Glad to be back, can't believe we're so close to a launch that could genuinely change gaming.

The ambition and scope blow me away every time I see something new about this game

As a starting point , I hope CDPR have RDR2 in their sights in terms of sales, the game has a higher ceiling imo.

 

[Muffin]

I'm gonna be honest here, the string of posts after that thread unlock read like parody to me. The thread got locked because Trans members asked for something relatively easy to do, and were repeatedly...well, basically ignored. Even if that was just a case of miscommunication (and I mean, look at #6851), it seems a bit tone-deaf to me that most posters knee-jerk reaction after the unlock is exclusively thanking the OT creators and game hype, without even mentioning a word about what happened (most, not all). There has to be some acknowledgement from fellow posters besides staff posts so trans people can feel good about participating here if they choose to.

 

[Mojazi]

Is there a thread where we can guess the MC? I would say 78.

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That's too low tbh based from the previews reactions, probably 90+

 

[Magneto]

That's too low tbh based from the previews reactions, probably 90+

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Mmh i'd say 86 because i feel like the game will be bugged on day one. Might be wrong tho'

 

[z1ggy]

Exactly 4 days for me, cant wait.

 

[Ellyshia]

I'm gonna be honest here, the string of posts after that thread unlock read like parody to me. The thread got locked because Trans members asked for something relatively easy to do, and were repeatedly...well, basically ignored. Even if that was just a case of miscommunication (and I mean, look at #6851), it seems a bit tone-deaf to me that most posters knee-jerk reaction after the unlock is exclusively thanking the OT creators and game hype, without even mentioning a word about what happened (most, not all). There has to be some acknowledgement from fellow posters besides staff posts so trans people can feel good about participating here if they choose to.

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THANK YOU!!!

 

[Deleted member 18944]

Thank you to

Black Chamber
vestan
Android Sophia

and any other users or moderators/admins that are involved in crafting the OT. I am sure it isn't easy.

I am very much looking forward to the OT and I am sure it will be both spectacular and highlight the criticisms that have been raised against CDPR.

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This is just a terrible post to have after a thread reopening. Sorry.

 

[rras1994]

I'm gonna be honest here, the string of posts after that thread unlock read like parody to me. The thread got locked because Trans members asked for something relatively easy to do, and were repeatedly...well, basically ignored. Even if that was just a case of miscommunication (and I mean, look at #6851), it seems a bit tone-deaf to me that most posters knee-jerk reaction after the unlock is exclusively thanking the OT creators and game hype, without even mentioning a word about what happened (most, not all). There has to be some acknowledgement from fellow posters besides staff posts so trans people can feel good about participating here if they choose to.

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Or at the very least not act like tran members were just being meany mcmeaney , that there was a valid reason why they were upset.

 

[--R]

Mmh i'd say 86 because i feel like the game will be bugged on day one. Might be wrong tho'

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If the impressions are true, then the patches pre-release + day 1 should fix the bugs, and press normally gets access to special builds with these patches applied.

 

[wafflebrain]

Is there a thread where we can guess the MC? I would say 78.

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After reading some of Hobbes impressions in the spoiler thread I'm leaning more towards high 80s to low 90s. It seems like CDPR managed to really make a much more tightly focused narrative going by the time it took them to beat the main story. As someone fatigued from open world bloat this is music to my ears. I just hope all the side quests in total provide a comparable length to the main story.

 

[Jaychrome91]

Good to have the main ot back. Thank you black chamber and vestan for your hard work on this ot.

 

[cabelhigh]

Good to have confirmation that there's no central validation or justification for deriding and mocking our bodies. Fetishizing them and using them to promote the game. Just treated as dispensable trash, deemed appropriate set dressing to up the "edge" of Night City. What an utterly pathetic and harmful waste of setting and potential.

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!00% agree. Disgusting on CDPR's part. Fuck them.

 

[Dennis8K]

Is there a thread where we can guess the MC? I would say 78.

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I am thinking 86 to 92. That range.

 

[Jaychrome91]

I hope performance on base ps4 isn't horrible.