Dark Souls 1 seems to be looked upon fondly? I can't help but criticise it for all its flaws.

[PenultimateFantasy]

I'm with you - i played Bloodborne then DS3 and then played original DS on Xbox 360 via BC

I find original DS to be interesting and fun for awhile but in the end the improvements they made as they made new games make a big diference

i think a lot of people have the nostalgia thing for DS - when it came out it was such a change and people remember that great feeling clearly and associate good times with it.

 

[Deleted member 41271]

Please name ONE game that has a better level design than Dark Souls 1 (that's not SOTN of course)

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How about a whole number:
Ultima Underworld I+II, Legends of Grimrock 2 (also does interconnected world FAR better, and has far better mysteries), Wizardry IV, Wizardry V, Wizardry VI, Wizardry VII, Super Metroid, Order of Ecclesia, Resident Evil 1, Thief 2

Dark Souls essentially has one part of it that is designed really well, which is the Undead Burg/Undead Parish/Depths/Sens Fortress complex. That part is really great. The rest not so much. Most of the rest is still good, don't get me wrong - I quite like Pinwheels area with the summoners, and I never disliked Blight town - but many games I would rate significantly above the entirity of DS.

Again, I really like the game, but I don't think it is really deserving of the "pinnacle of design" award that people like awarding it.

 

[Tuck]

You are incorrect.

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Well, the level design after anor Londo is pretty bad/half unfinished in oarts (except dukes archives, that was awesome ).

Before anor londo though, the level design is amazing.

 

[snausages]

Of course, that's why I agreed that Lost Izalith is unfinished, the part that's incorrect is the "glitches" part.



You have to be grabbed by Centipede Demon in a specific corner of the area, one glitch like this doesn't mean the entire area is glitchy. Also you can make Ornstein do the exact same thing.

I never have camera problems with Centipede Demon, so I'm not sure how you play the game that makes you have this problem.

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Additionally the lockon is impossible to keep in this fight

 

[Much]

I'm liking Tomb of Giants so far, really good atmosphere. I don't like that I get 3 hit killed by the crawling skeletons though.

 

[Deleted member 24021]

Well, the level design after anor Londo is pretty bad/half unfinished in oarts (except dukes archives, that was awesome ).

Before anor londo though, the level design is amazing.

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The only unfinished area is Lost Izalith, every other area in the game doesn't have the same poor level design and encounter problems.

Additionally the lockon is impossible to keep in this fight

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That person in the video is fighting Centipede Demon the inefficient and incorrect way, there's a larger piece of land in the arena where you can get directly under him which is where you're supposed to be. Being directly in front of the boss isn't the right place to be.

Also, why would you want to lock on to Centipede Demon? There are some enemies that you're better off not locking on to, and Centipede Demon is one of them.

 

[Jimnymebob]

I posted about my thoughts on the level design in the OT last night: basically, I find the way the world is connected to be genius, but I find the actual level design to be lacking in quite a few of the actual levels.

 

[MaitreWakou]

I'm a huuuuge lover of Dark Souls 3. But first one (which I played AFTER Dark Souls 3) is the best imo.
3's level design is linear. Dark Souls 1's level design is metroidesque.
I also love the feeling of the combat. It's fluid, it's fast. When you are high level, it feels good to destroy everything. Especially those who gave you a hard time, like the black knights.
I can get your consideration about post-anor lando. It feels kinda rushed, I've read people saying this part of the game was rushed because they didn't have much time left ? I'm not sure if I do believe this. Generaly in game design you do the first levels in last, when you understand your own game mecanics, so you can make a good intro to the game that will teach those mecanics.
But game is one of the best out there. And I have 0 nostalgy about it since I first played it on may 25 2018 lol

 

[Xiaomi]

Additionally the lockon is impossible to keep in this fight

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Sometimes you shouldn't be locked on. You have to manage it like all other things. O&S are a good example of a boss you can't be locked on all the time. Manus deliberately breaks lock-on, too, as do a couple bosses in Bloodborne.

Also the dude in the video needs to run to the right. He's missing the bigger arena.

 

[City 17]

I but you can't go through the catacombs/tomb of giants without the sunlight bug, and you can't fight the 4 kings without having a special ring on that the game never tells you about.

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You don't need the maggot for Catacombs, heck you don't need a divine weapon either, nor do you need a transient curse/cursed weapon for New Londo Ruins, because who needs those anyway, that's what I do on every playthrough.

 

[snausages]

Yes, grabbed in a specific corner of the room like I said. I know about it because of Lobos and I watch his streams all the time lol.

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Specific corner? This is the platform you enter the area.

I'm aware that there is a seperate area to the right which is less buggy but the way it is laid out doesn't make it intuitive that you are supposed to do that given that it's impossible to jump over there without taking lava damage

So at the front area where you start the camera logic breaks, at the corner to the left the entire boss breaks. There is only one part where the boss 'works', this should not be a QA test for the player to resolve through trial and error, that isn't what Souls is.

This is a really bad fight.

 

[snausages]

Also the dude in the video needs to run to the right. He's missing the bigger arena.

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The dude is me lol

Points above, yes I know the fight 'works' on the right area, I've learned that since. But it doesn't mean that it isn' rubbish that the left section breaks the fight and the front section breaks the camera. It's garbage.

 

[Deleted member 24021]

The dude is me lol

Points above, yes I know the fight 'works' on the right area, I've learned that since. But it doesn't mean that it isn' rubbish that the left section breaks the fight and the front section breaks the camera. It's garbage.

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I edited my post multiple times.

Edit: Make sure you turn off auto wall recovery, you're the first person I've seen complain about the camera in that boss fight, so that might help you.

 

[skeezx]

no prob with DS1 not being your jam but dear lord it did not age at all, outside of QoL stuff the sequels added i guess

 

[Red Liquorice]

Additionally the lockon is impossible to keep in this fight

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This is a bad boss. But one makes it a lot worse by fighting him there. There's a couple of other spots in the arena with more landspace to fight. It helps, not much, but it's better than standing at the door.

I think everyone is in agreement Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith bring down the back half of the game. 3 Bad bosses, boring level design, cut and paste enemies.

 

[OhNo]

A 6 year old game doesn't handle as well as Bloodborne? The real surprise would be if it handled better.

You've gone into this game with years of hype behind it from excited fans and it's probably not met the expectation. Especially seeing as you've already played 2 games with the same formula.

Dark Souls 2 is polarising but you'll probably still enjoy it as it's a departure from the first one in a lot of ways...specifically the 'bad' level design ;)

 

[Much]

Okay, I'm fighting Nito, but I guess I'm too low level? I'm Lv.56 and die in about 3 hits to enemies atm.

 

[Jimnymebob]

Okay, I'm fighting Nito, but I guess I'm too low level? I'm Lv.56 and die in about 3 hits to enemies atm.

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56 seems kind of low for Nito. You want to avoid aggroing the big skeletons on the back end of the arena.

 

[En-ou]

You are incorrect.

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Poor level design? Combine ten AAA games today and they still cannot match it. And what stiff controls?

 

[Couscous]

I played this game the first time with the newly released Remastered editon on PS4. I started my Soulsborne journey with Bloodborne. I played DS III on launch and I played DS II in January.

The movement in the game is slow, but it's just as fluid as DS III and Bloodborne imo. The world design with how all the areas connect in the first half is the best I ever experienced. The level design is also great for the most part, but there are areas where you fight enemies in spaces that are way too small. Lost Izalith and Tomb of the Giants are really bad areas overall. Crystal Cave and Demon Ruins are also bad, but they're really small areas. The overall world and Level design in the second half is definitely worse than in the first half of the game. The bosses in this game are a mixed bag. For every Ornstein and Smough there is a Bed of Chaos.

Overall the game is a bit overrated on here and by the Souls community. It's better than DS II, but worse than DS III and Bloodborne even though it has GOAT world design.

 

[Custódio]

I can't take serious people who say that after Anor Londo the design is shit. That's hyperbole. There are great areas post Anor Londo, such as:
- New Londo Ruins;
- Tomb of the Giants;
- Archieves;
- The Great Hollow / Ash Lake (It's usually done after the Lorde Vessel);
- The DLC;

Really, the only levels that are not very inspired are Darkroot and Demon's Ruins, and the only one really lame is Lost Izalith. There are more great areas than bad ones after Anor Londo.

I agree, the game stops being fun right after Anor Londo, literally every level sucks after that and you have to go through them in a certain order. Before hand you could visit any place at any time, but you can't go through the catacombs/tomb of giants without the sunlight bug, and you can't fight the 4 kings without having a special ring on that the game never tells you about.

You'd probably like Dark Souls 2 better, it doesn't even attempt to make the world coherent or connected so it's not really an issue if the game itself doesn't care.

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That's false. It the catacombs you get a shield that has light so no need for the sunlight bug, and the game do tell you about the item you need for the 4 kings.

 

[Tiopes]

It would help to know what do you consider good level design. I mean, criticizing the level design in Dark Souls 1 is one of the things you're not going to get a lot of support for. It's something that not even other Souls games were able to match. And regarding stiff controls, it's also something that I really can't agree. Movement has weight, and that's actually what makes the combat so good. Unless you're expecting a Bayonetta/Devil May Cry thing for it. Even if comparing to Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3, it's not stiff. It's slower, at most.

You also complained about the quality drop in Anor Londo, and while that's true, it's mostly related to Lost Izalith. Duke's Archives is as confusing as a huge library should be. I mean, it's a pretty simple design actually, you're just not paying attention to the turns you're making and the rotating staircases. Catacombs is very good, Tomb of Giant is also simple but I like it too. New Londo Ruins is pretty awesome to me, and the DLC is incredible. Lost Izalith is the only shit area.

 

[Rotimi]

Level design is great except for a few end game areas that were really poor. The interconnetivity is really well done. The areas flow well into one another and look like an actual reagion.

The combat is really well done, specially being able to use the bow and arrow for sniping along with great melee options. Magic is also well done in my opinion.

Bosses after Anor londor are not really good. ceaselessly discharge which is only cool cause of the name is also a bad boss.

The game is great overall but toward the end the game losses it's charm. And it seems to be a similar situation in blood borne.

 

[Jimnymebob]

and the DLC is incredible.

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The DLC has Chasm of the Abyss though, which is awful due to how linear it is/how pointless all of it is.

You have that area at the start with all the enemies, but that's pointless because you don't even need to go past them.

Then you head down the ramp, and you have two options: carry on down, or detour and fall through the floor.

If you carry on down, you can go to the humanity ghosts for reasons, but if you want to carry on, you just need to ignore them and walk down the broken pillar thing.

If you fall through the floor, you open a shortcut back to Oolacile Sanctuary, which isn't really any closer than the bonfire at the start of Chasm of the Abyss, rescue Sif, and end up either going past more humanity ghosts, which again, is pointless, or carrying on up and ending back at the broken pillar.

Once you've gone down the pillar, youryo T the fog, unless you want to wander around the other paths for reasons.

 

[Tiopes]

The DLC has Chasm of the Abyss though, which is awful due to how linear it is/how pointless all of it is.

You have that area at the start with all the enemies, but that's pointless because you don't even need to go past them.

Then you head down the ramp, and you have two options: carry on down, or detour and fall through the floor.

If you carry on down, you can go to the humanity ghosts for reasons, but if you want to carry on, you just need to ignore them and walk down the broken pillar thing.

If you fall through the floor, you open a shortcut back to Oolacile Sanctuary, which isn't really any closer than the bonfire at the start of Chasm of the Abyss, rescue Sif, and end up either going past more humanity ghosts, which again, is pointless, or carrying on up and ending back at the broken pillar.

Once you've gone down the pillar, youryo T the fog, unless you want to wander around the other paths for reasons.

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Well, I think I agree with that, Chasm of the Abyss is not good.

 

[coldsagging]

Apart from 2, it's the most flawed in the series, and it's still my favourite. It was the first Souls to click for me (i bounced off Demons pretty hard) and a lot of the magic of Dark Souls was the sense of wonder and discovery with a fresh and bubbling community. I love the other games, but that feeling can't be replicated.

 

[Much]

What's the strategy for Nito here?

 

[Zombegoast]

The dude is me lol

Points above, yes I know the fight 'works' on the right area, I've learned that since. But it doesn't mean that it isn' rubbish that the left section breaks the fight and the front section breaks the camera. It's garbage.

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This happens in every Dark Souls game with big bosses. Especially 3's big fast moving bosses.Lock on and big bosses never work, that's why Monster Hunter doesn't have a lock on system.

 

[Mirage]

You can just put on a set of armor with high poise and pretty much tank through Nito, and his attacks will hit the smaller enemies.

 

[Much]

You can just put on a set of armor with high poise and pretty much tank through Nito, and his attacks will hit the smaller enemies.

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Thanks! I just did it. I kinda like that boss fight once I got the hang of it! Catacombs and TotG was very cool indeed.

 

[Jimnymebob]

Catacombs is a weird level. It's brilliantly designed in terms of layout etc., but it's just placed at a baffling place.

You can go there pretty much straight away, but it's way too difficult to navigate properly at that point, and even though you can shortcut through it to skip most of it and beat Pinwheel easy enough, there's not really much reason to do that unless you desperately need his mask or a great scythe, and it leads to a dead end anyway.

When you come to it post Lordvessel, aside from the bone wheels who can screw you over no matter what level you are, you'll be a high enough level that the rest of the level provides absolutely no challenge, so you're left with a level that is interesting to navigate, but you're just mowing through the enemies.

 

[Deleted member 7148]

Dark Souls is my 2nd favorite game of all-time, right after Ocarina of Time, and even I admit that the level design can be shit in the second half of the game. The way the world weaves together is brilliant but navigating some of those areas like Demon Ruins and Tomb of Giants can be a huge pain in the ass.

 

[snausages]

I do really like the world layout. The way that it is this layer-cake of levels stacked on top of each other and how you progress a little bit up to the first bell tower. Then a little bit down to the next one. Then back to the middle and all the way up to Anor Londo. Just the way your progress is about ascent and then digging deep into the depths and blighttown and everything underneath.

But this year is the first year I actually progressed past Sen's Fortress (I usually burn out on my DS playthroughs) and the illusion of DS' greatness was shattered by how ugly the crystal cave was, how brutally unfair the giants tomb was (Catacombs is cool) and the gimmicks both areas resort to as well as the lack of QA in all the areas beneath Blighttown. Nothing more needs to be said on Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith and the gauntlet of poo they make you go through (Ceaseless Discharge, re-used Fire Axe guy, Centipede thing and Bed of Chaos).

Bloodborne in comparison has such rich visual storytelling and a greater standard of quality across its boss encounters. Even the bad ones like One Reborn. Yhargul is such a scary area when you clear the streets and see all the calcified corpses laid out, learning that it's the aftermath of a ritual you heard earlier on. In DS it's much harder to have these experiences cause the visuals fall apart and feel very debug later on.

Really I think the best experience I had on DS was my original playthrough trying to do Catacombs pre-LordVessel, not understanding that it was out of sequence. Fighting tooth and claw all the way down and feeling like I had dug really deep, then having to fight my way back out with the rite of kindling and seeing the light creep in through the entrance.

 

[Tomeru]

DS3 character control and items + DS1 world is the best of both worlds.

 

[Wojo]

Dark Souls 1 is basically Vanilla WoW. Everybody loves it cause of nostalgia.

 

[OldSocksAndShoes]

Coming off of DS3 and Nioh, I agree. I think the level design is probably DS1's biggest strength but nearly everything else about it pales in comparison to DS3.

 

[Indy in the Fridge]

Dark Souls 1 is basically Vanilla WoW. Everybody loves it cause of nostalgia.

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Bullshit.

DS1 doesn't need to be viewed through rose-colored glasses to appreciate it for what it is. Like, the comparisons to later Souls games is disingenuous considering DS1 is the progenitor of its sequels and so the formula is improved upon in subsequent releases. Do you think MGS 1 is just considered good for nostalgia reasons because MGS 2 and 3 did it better? No, because it is inherently a great game when considering the era or period in which it was released. Dark Souls 1 is still considered a masterpiece, especially when the period in which it was released is taken into consideration. If you view any game by 2018 standards, you're going to have difficulty finding a "timeless" game that doesn't have several flaws or archaic design choices because not all games are future-proof. Should that take away from its greatness? I don't think so. NFL 2K5 is considered one of the greatest football games ever made but its features and gameplay have been surpassed by subsequent Madden releases. That doesn't detract from how great of a game it was in its time.

DS1 is still an incredible game. It suffers from late game level design, but I don't believe areas like the Duke's Archives, Crystal Caves, or Tomb of the Giants should be compared to Lost Izalith or Bed of Chaos because those 3 areas are wonderfully designed and both Duke's Archives and Tomb of the Giants are as intricate as the first-half areas. I mean, who doesn't believe that the Research Hall from The Old Hunter's wasn't heavily influenced by Duke's Archives? With its verticality and rotating staircases? DS 1 is still looked back on as significant influences on later releases.

 

[Garrod Ran]

Not strictly related to souls, but you really can and should be able to criticize things you like rather than just ascribing to GOAT mentality or things like that.

That's just my hot take

 

[Much]

Not strictly related to souls, but you really can and should be able to criticize things you like rather than just ascribing to GOAT mentality or things like that.

That's just my hot take

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I agree. I can enjoy something and criticise it at the same time. People act like me criticising their game is me pissing on their bonfire, when I'm just saying what I'm disappointed by.

 

[Forkball]

 

[Yrch]

What keeps me from getting back into any souls Game are the horrible placement of Bonfires when it comes to Bosses.
Why the hell do i have to run though what feels like half the Area if i want to get back to a boss After Death?

Why Not Place the Bonfire near the damn Fog gate?

 

[SweetBellic]

What keeps me from getting back into any souls Game are the horrible placement of Bonfires when it comes to Bosses.
Why the hell do i have to run though what feels like half the Area if i want to get back to a boss After Death?

Why Not Place the Bonfire near the damn Fog gate?

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That's what the shortcuts are for and why it's so rewarding to discover them.

 

[Couscous]

That's what the shortcuts are for and why it's so rewarding to discover them.

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I really like that shortcut in Lost Izalith, oh wait... :/

Apart from that area you're mostly right.

 

[Deleted member 11370]

Hah have people said that? A pyro build can be fun but it's just one of the many options to play the game.

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Yeah, it's been said. And I still haven't got my answer:

It's rough around the edges. The lack of fast travel and some bosses being impossible to kill without upgrading your pyromancy is why I like Dark Souls II and III more.

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I really like that shortcut in Lost Izalith, oh wait... :/

Apart from that area you're mostly right.

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Eh, there's a shortcut in Lost Izalith.

 

[WyLD iNk]

What's the strategy for Nito here?

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Try Havel's set, grass crest shield, don't move too far out from where you land because you want only Nito and the three mook skeletons attacking you. Tank him, keeping your health prioritized at 75% or better. Don't worry about the skellies. Just focus on him. He'll take them out with his AoE periodically.

 

[Much]

Try Havel's set, grass crest shield, don't move too far out from where you land because you want only Nito and the three mook skeletons attacking you. Tank him, keeping your health prioritized at 75% or better. Don't worry about the skellies. Just focus on him. He'll take them out with his AoE periodically.

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Thanks, I'm on Bed of Chaos now though lol. I'm looking forward to this one. :)

 

[Couscous]

Yeah, it's been said. And I still haven't got my answer:





Eh, there's a shortcut in Lost Izalith.

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Not from the last bonfire to the Bed of Chaos and the other user meant shorter routes to bosses or bonfires near them.

 

[Jimnymebob]

That's what the shortcuts are for and why it's so rewarding to discover them.

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What about Chasm of the Abyss? It's a two minute run to the boss each time from the shortcut, and you come across one enemy who isn't even facing you on the way to it.

My problem with long runs to bosses is that they're mostly either filled with next to no enemies/ones that are easy to avoid, or are three DS2 DLC optional boss runs.

 

[Yunyo]

The level design is further hampered when you take damage from a two feet fall.

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I mean, this is straight up incorrect, fall damage was INCREASED with every subsequent Souls games, with Dark Souls 3 almost outright killing you with 20 foot drops. In Dark Souls 1 you can drop ridiculous heights without dying and it's used as a speedrun tactic. Demon's Souls fall damage is a meme.

EDIT: And after reading more of your posts it seems like you lack the ability to interpret the reasons behind level design m8.

 

[Much]

I mean, this is straight up incorrect, fall damage was INCREASED with every subsequent Souls games, with Dark Souls 3 almost outright killing you with 20 foot drops. In Dark Souls 1 you can drop ridiculous heights without dying and it's used as a speedrun tactic. Demon's Souls fall damage is a meme.

EDIT: And after reading more of your posts it seems like you lack the ability to interpret the reasons behind level design m8.

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Fair point. I already retracted some of the hyperbolic statements on the level design, but it sure does drop after Anor Londo.