DBZ Thread: Is Goku willing to off Supreme Kai in the middle of a stadium just to get a true 1v1 against Vegeta the most "Saiyan" thing Goku has done?
- Thread starter Coyote Starrk
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Wait, wasn't Goku just bluffing in that scene?
I always thought he was just bluffing and would never have actually shot.
People forget one thing, Goku can SENSE Ki, he was fighting Frieza at 50% power and knew how strong he was, he is an idiot but still a battle savant, and even an idiot can add 1 plus 1 together, he knew from the start that Frieza would be weaker than his Super Saiyan form.
Granted, he was going with Frieza not lying, and in fact, in the manga the fight even before Frieza gets tired, is just Goku demolishing Frieza at full power or just being at best shocked at some move of Frieza's, it was the anime filler that made the fight last so long and even have Frieza overpower Goku.
But going with the manga...yeah, Goku was right, i think it's the anime coloring perception of this move and people seemingly forgetting that Goku can, you know, sense energy, if he was confident he could beat Frieza at full power, it was for a good reason.
Notice how Goku was willing to kill an unarmed purple man with such ease? Sad to be honest because Supreme Kai is part of a minority group due to how the world of DB works, plus the fact that the other Kais got absorbed into Buu.
It's actually a little hard to understand what is meant by "saiyan" thing to do. It's a bit ambiguous. Since the Saiyan thing to do would be ruthless and not apologize for his actions. It wouldn't be to bluff or even give them a chance to back down. Goku's motive was to protect the people of Earth from a force that could cause mass extinction 1000x over. Vegeta already tried to blow up earth when he was just a henchman compared to what he is now. The reason Vegeta is alive and even on Earth is a result of Goku's choices. I don't think he snapped, he knows the dragonballs can reverse the damage as long as he stops the threat.
I disagree here too. The Saiyan thing to do would be just kill Freiza. Goku never wanted to kill Freiza, even after all Freiza did. This is made clear when he gives him power enough to escape the planet... and he didn't even like the fact that he had to "finish" him off in response to Freiza's choice to attack. In a way, future trunks is more Saiyan than Goku as he actually does completely obliterate Freiza before he has a chance to do anything like power up. But Goku would have allowed that.
I disagree here too. The Saiyan thing to do would be just kill Freiza. Goku never wanted to kill Freiza, even after all Freiza did. This is made clear when he gives him power enough to escape the planet... and he didn't even like the fact that he had to "finish" him off in response to Freiza's choice to attack. In a way, future trunks is more Saiyan than Goku as he actually does completely obliterate Freiza before he has a chance to do anything like power up. But Goku would have allowed that.
The SS3 part, think he knew he couldn't stay in it long and thats why he didn't use it. Not for Ki usage but because for some reason it shortened his time on earth?
If you think about it that means that Buu technically offed 4 different supreme Kais. So that means 4 gods of destruction died too.Beerus would I think lol
That's not a Saiyan thing, that's a Goku being an idiot thing
Not what happened. Goku was reckless in p4ivoking the Xenos into doing that, but they were the ones who came up with the stakes independent of Goku.
I assume it takes some time to find a new god of destruction to pair with a kai
it's also possible Shin was already linked to Beerus at that point, if maybe he was already designed as the successor
it's a big plothole cause neither the fat main kai Buu eats, nor the old kai that was trapped in the sword are depicted being linked to a god of destruction; hell, the old kai was put in the sword by Beerus, which...makes no sense under these rules. The only out I see is if this happened before Beerus was a god of destruction (narrative simplicity will later require that this event made Beerus into a god of destruction ... somehow)
The No-Prize:
Removing a Supreme Kai without killing them doesn't kill the God of Destruction, but eventually a new Supreme Kai will emerge and the nond will be transferred to them.
No, there's only one God of Destruction per universe, and they are linked to the Grand Supreme Kai, not to the 4 Supreme Kais who serve under the Grand Supreme one.
I assume the fat supreme kai didn't really count as dead when eaten by Buu, which allowed Beerus to survive and (I assume Whis did this) to bond him to Shin. Which may also have happened in the old kai/z sword incident too
to be fair, at that point in time the only people stronger than Shin were Majin Buu, Goku, Vegeta and Gohan and the latter 3 only reached that level just 7 years prior to the Buu arc.
it's safe to say that, combined with his negligence to never check what was happening on earth, he never thought there'd be people stronger than him just roaming around in a random planet. Babidi was going through the same thing since he was shitting himself seeing how strong the warriors were (Gohan even weakened due to no training was about on par with Dabura which was Babidi's strongest henchman). the Cell saga power up events really shifted the balance for this arc.
it's safe to say that, combined with his negligence to never check what was happening on earth, he never thought there'd be people stronger than him just roaming around in a random planet. Babidi was going through the same thing since he was shitting himself seeing how strong the warriors were (Gohan even weakened due to no training was about on par with Dabura which was Babidi's strongest henchman). the Cell saga power up events really shifted the balance for this arc.
Shin becomes the supreme Kai because he was the only Kai alive lol. Also Beerus isn't tied to Shin at that moment, he is still tied to the old Kai inside the sword. This part hasn't been clarified yet but when the old one gives his life for Goku, that might be the moment that Shin becomes connected with Beerus. In the Trunks timeline you can't really tell because Shin dies and the Z sword gets turned into stone and later destroyed in the span of 5 min so one of the events caused Beerus to cease to exist.
The regular people in the stadium were at the mercy of Majin Vegeta, I don't think it was the Saiyan gene telling him to 'f those people & Shin let me fight Vegeta at all cost'. 🤷
It's still confusing since we had like Supreme 5 Kai's at one point until Buu went on a murder spree? So would he have to kill all of them or is Shin the only one tied to his life?
It does make sense at least why Beerus trapped Elder Kai in the sword, he did it so he wouldn't die.
Especially when Goku was out of optoins. Regardless of Goku's intent to have a good fight or not, the option was fight Vegeta or more innocent people die. Goku was affected by Vegeta slaughtering people, he wouldn't want more people to be killed by Vegeta "who as far as Goku is concerned", is under Babidi possession.
Also, Goku had several chances to fight Vegeta between the possession and Vegeta blasting people, he was refusing until Vegeta went on a killing spree. I don't get how people can just say it was "for a good fight". Once hte fight began I think it's pretty clear Goku did kind of lose sense of hte stakes until Buu was woken up, I will 100% agree with that and that's more in line with Goku's character, when fighting he focuses on just the fight and kind of loses his grasp on real world impacts of his decisions. Though not entirely, since Buu did make him realize he fucked up.
I also do kind of agree with the retroactive fix that he didn't want to hurt Vegeta's ego anymore than he already did. I mean, Vegeta gave into being possessed because he already thought the barrier of strength between them was too high, SSJ3 at that point could have put Vegeta in a place where tehre was no coming back from. I think Goku does recognize how much Vegeta has changed and realizes that this rivalry between them might undo all the progress he's made.
My biggest issue with Majin Vegeta is I think it shouldn't have been tied to wanting a fight with Goku, at least I don't think teh initial possession should have been. I liked the angle they went with when Vegeta talks about how caring about others hasn't made him stronger. How he hasn't gotten teh same power boost Gohan or Goku got when their loved ones were in danger. I think they should have played more to that. What if Vegeta let Babidi possess him because he didn't think anyone could beat Dabura, (Dabura would need a power increase in this reality), and he let Babidi possess him because he wanted the power boost to protect his family to keep Buu from waking up/ endangering his family, and he thought he could control it, however even though he still has control it's bringing out his darkness nature which is still wanting to settle that old score with Kakarot. The way they do handle it sets Vegeta's character back a lot for me and his sacrifice isn't enough to atone for the huge fuck up he made, and at the end of the day for me it's because he let his grudge with Goku endanger everyone.
Goku was never going to kill Supreme Kai lol. He was angry and saying he was willing to force him to move with the gesture of pointing a ki blast at him. In other words, it got Supreme Kai to back off and not intervene with their fight despite feeling stopping Buu was the only thing in the world that mattered.
17 and 18 were also probably stronger than Shin. Piccolo might have been as well. Piccolo didn't want to fight Shin because of his status, which he assumed meant he was above him in power, not because of his actual power.
Also, he could still blast Supreme Kai and not kill him. Goku knows how much power to use to knock someone out, or at least blast them out of the way. Goku doesn't really care about his actions affect thigns on a larger scale than his worldview, so he doesn't really care if he ruins his relationship with Shin, who his getting in his way without providing a better solution on what to do.
Wait wait wait
I thought the point of Kai was to remove the filler
Yet the OPs clip contains approximately 70% more pausing, facial reaction shots, etc. than is narratively or tonally necessary to convey the story, character arcs and emotion.
I thought the point of Kai was to remove the filler
Yet the OPs clip contains approximately 70% more pausing, facial reaction shots, etc. than is narratively or tonally necessary to convey the story, character arcs and emotion.
Buu arc had the worse of it in terms of hte Kai seasons. Saiyan, Frieza and Android/ Cell cut out most of hte filler. Buu arc keeps a lot of it for whatever reason.
Yeah it was Kami part of Piccolo that stopped him right? because he could sense who Supreme Kai was.
He said he heard stories of the Supreme Kai, which could only be the Kami part. Though Piccolo did know a bit about Kami's plan when Goku died in the saiyan arc, so he isn't completely oblivious to deity stuff. But yeah, safe assumption that was just the Kami side.
Shin might have enough techniques to maybe give the 3 I mentioned trouble, but power wise we only really know that he was comfortably stronger than Frieza.
I dont think it would have ever come to that, the whole thing was just for added drama to the situation. If anything it just showed that Goku has a ¨dont get in my way Im pissed off right now¨ but actually harming someone trying to stop a fight is something that goes againt his character.
I think the most saiyan thing is honestly Goku's GT moments. Though I'm not sure if they're dubisms. There's a lot of talks Goku has where he says stuff like "that's not a very saiyan thing for you to do" when talking to Goten, just moments like that where he recognizes his saiyan heritage way more than in Z/ Super.
I don't think it would have either, it's jsut if Shin for whatever reason didn't move, I think it would have just been a harmless (as harmless as it can be) blast. Goku can't just stare Shin down with a Ki blast for hours, though I guess that would keep Buu from waking up, though I imagine Babidi would get insufferable yelling in Vegeta's head to end his staredown.
It's not really though.
He was explicitly told by Beerus and/or Whis to not fuck around with Zeno because it could easily have horrendous consequences.
Combined with the previous arc taking place years in to the future meaning we know that the universes weren't about to be imminently destroyed before Gokus actions made that the case means it really was his fault.
The actual answer is this is basically a 'nobody changes the batmobiles tires' line of thought and nobody involved in making the series cares the slightest for any philosophical questions raised and neither should we really.
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Yeah, that scene is really a fuck up on Shin's part. Is Goku fighting Vegeta a good thing to do in this situation? No. Are Goku and Shin presented with a better option/ did Shin give Goku a better option? No. It is the only choice they have unless they just want more bodies to drop.
Goku tried talking Vegeta out of a fight. Shin was in the way of a Goku and Vegeta fight, and I think people are kind of overlooking what Vegeta might have done to shin if Goku wasn't the one to intervene. If Goku was willing to blast Shin, Vegeta 100% would have and in the state he was in, I don't think he would have cared on if it was enough power to knock out or kill.
I'd say there's a lot of blame on Goku for his actions causing what happened. I wouldn't say Goku intentionally set up 8 universes to be erased though. It's kind of a middle ground where he fucked up, and he should have knew something bad would happen because of his actions and he should be at fault because those things happened, but it's not like he knew specifically how bad things would get/ he wanted those things to happen.
Realistically, he would have shot the blast at the ground causing Supreme Kai to be pushed back by the reverb of the blast and thats as far as he would go.
Beerus is only tied to the Grand Supreme Kai. The Eastern Supreme Kai (AKA "Shin") became the new Grand Supreme Kai when the reigning Grand Supreme Kai (AKA the "fat" one) was absorbed by Buu.
This and other examples in this thread are exactly why Goku is a much more interesting main character than Gohan would have ever been lol
The manga literally showed y'all if Goku didn't talk to xeno right then all of creation was going to be wiped
It's ambiguous, but if it's a bluff it's certainly convincing enough to make Shin back down.
How?
Wouldn't the world be destroyed otherwise?
Goku couldn't beat Cell, Gohan was already thinking of playing it safe and underestimating Cell because he was seemingly injured but we see Cell had been holding back all that time, and without Cell being healed and making Gohan ponder why his dad did that, there wouldn't be any speech about his hidden power or as much motivation to release it, also meaning Cell would have killed Gohan and no Cell Jr's, heck, Cell was absolutely focused only on Goku and was mad that he gave up and let Gohan fight, you don't think an injured and pissed off Cell wouldn't have pushed harder to quickly kill Gohan, the Senzu Bean also made him happier and calmer...also more likely to just take his time out of sadism and more easily underestimate Gohan.
Again, Goku is an idiot...in everything but fighting, he even tells Piccolo his plan and in the manga when Cell is beating Gohan, there is a panel where he SMILES AND SAYS EVERYTHING IS GOING TO PLAN.
He does come to realize it was stupid as hell and that Gohan doesn't like fighting, but Cell being healed by his hand was on purpose in an attempt to make Gohan feel angrier and more afraid than usual and thus power up.
That's kinda the issue with a lot of Goku's dumb moments when it comes to fighting, there are sometimes one or two lines or panels implying he isn't that dumb and justifications for his actions making it ambiguous.
Like i said, in the manga, while everyone is panicking and seeing a freshly healed Cell beating Gohan, he is the one smiling and saying everything is going according to plan.
...I am not saying he is a stellar father or master genius, once Piccolo makes his speech about how Gohan is truly like, Goku immediately realizes he made a mistake and wants to step in again, and the plan barely worked and required 16 to sacrifice himself as well.