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Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
So many pages and still we get ignorant, dumb posts like this. Reading is hard.
What's ignorant is assuming that the money won't go directly towards caging more kids up.

There aren't even any protections for dreamers, which would be the ONE thing that even remotely salvages it.

I read the article. It says the only part of the drafted proposal we know of is that they're giving Trump free reign to do what he wants along the border except for building anything with 5 billion to do it with. Everything else is a summary of the lies Republicans have peddled and some rube acting like we should compromise with fascists.

No, it's caving to the racism and nationalism of the Republicans. Or, perhaps the racism and nationalism the Dems had in them all along. Your pick. And if we're assume that they were going to put money towards ~border security~ when we haven't even used up the money already allocated for it from last time we funded "border security", then, yeah, they're being nationalist hacks and should be called out for it. Maybe it isn't technically caving, but it's still bad.

Like, the article certainly doesn't say, so, you tell me: what GOOD, POSITIVE things could possibly be done with the money that Republicans and Trump would actually agree on? They're certainly not going to make ICE centers less inhumane or less like the almost literal concentration camps they are. And outside of that, and given they can't build anything, they pretty much have to use it towards actions. Actions which will harm people who have done nothing but break a stupid and outdated law that has no place in a society looking towards progress.
What kind of security do you think should be at the wall then. What kind of improvement that could be done with 5 billion?

It's not caving, it's getting the government open again while dealing with a issue that needs to be dealt with before the next election cycle with out their being a wall of hate.

Not just at Mexico, I'm sure the Canadian border needs better security as well. Not just for bad elements that can come from those areas, but our bad elements bringing stuff over the border.

They know Cortez is quick to flip on Twitter and make life harder on the Democrats, they are not going to do something stupid like say....let trump build the wall.

A lot of people talking about Dems shouldn't do this or shouldn't do that speaking from a place of privledged because they are not the ones not getting paychecks right now trying to figure out not only how to put food on the table but Keep a roof over their heads.

Whatever bill is passed it needs to include some money to compensate the employees missing pay. They didn't ask for this nonsense. They shouldn't be used as pawns in a power struggle.
Nothing that Trump would agree to. I'm in fact for abolishment of borders entirely, sooner or later. I understand that's a big grab, but we should be working towards it, not away from it. Again, I don't want a wall. I never fucking said I do. I think we should make things easier for people who want to work or live here, if we must continue the charade of man made arbitrary concepts like borders. But the Democrats do not specify that's what the money is for. They're saying "here Trump, here GOP, do what you want except build stuff along the border!" Now what could that entail except killing or arresting people doing nothing but walking across an imaginary line in the sand, hm?

And you seem to be speaking from a place of privilege yourself. I'm sure you have a roof over your head, something many of the people who will be negatively effected by 5 billion bumped into "~border security~" (i.e. ICE) don't have. I'm aware that many government workers are going unpaid, and I fully support their methods of protest. That isn't the fault of anyone but Trump. Don't let shitheads trick you into thinking there's a both sides here, there isn't- or wasn't, anyway.

I also am directly impacted by this shutdown given my living situation, don't dare think I don't have skin in this game.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,157
What's ignorant is assuming that the money won't go directly towards caging more kids up.

Per the article:


USAToday said:
"No new structures. The only thing we are talking about is existing structures, along with the judges and some other things," Thompson said. He said there would be money for "some new" Customs and Border Protection agents and to bolster ports of entry.

We desperately need more Immigration judges to alleviate the already massive backlog case load of Immigration cases, especially asylum proceedings. But, I guess reading is hard.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
I'm not for the abolishment of borders, if that's where the conversation is heading I'm out.

I'm all for addressing border security with out a xenophobic wall that Trump could flaunt. It won't deter crime. Plus would be a huge waste as it would probably be torn down by a future adminstration in a act equal to us removing southern pride symbols of old majors and leaders from the turn coat part of the country..

But no borders at all? Fuck that
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Per the article:




We desperately need more Immigration judges to alleviate the already massive backlog case load of Immigration cases, especially asylum proceedings. But, I guess reading is hard.
I mean this without snark: Thank you for pointing it out, as you honestly didn't need to. But I had seen that bit. I'm assuming the judges would be Republicans themselves, which is why I didn't consider them as a good thing and a part of the whole 'harming immigrants' thing I'm against, as of course they're just going to deport people even if all they did was, again, cross an imaginary line in the sand. If they'd be nonpartisan, I agree that would be fine. But I'm finding it harder and harder to trust the establishment, partcularly GOP backed establisment, all the time. I also assume all 5b of that would not go to judges, anyway.

I'm not for the abolishment of borders, if that's where the conversation is heading I'm out.

I'm all for addressing border security with out a xenophobic wall that Trump could flaunt. It won't deter crime. Plus would be a huge waste as it would probably be torn down by a future adminstration in a act equal to us removing southern pride symbols of old majors and leaders from the turn coat part of the country..

But no borders at all? Fuck that
Again, as I said, that's a huge ask, and I know that, so what my only real desire at this time is the abolishment of ICE and making it easier to immigrate or work here. This proposal is moving in the exact opposite direction which will, inherently, end with the wall even if it isn't built now. And frankly, we haven't even used up the allocated money for border security yet, so there's not much reason to put more into it, even if you're for maintaining the current status quo.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
This isn't caving, US Border Patrol NEEDs more funding.

You people remember that thread about how recently asylum seekers that have been admitted are just bused to a greyhound station and left there with nothing but the clothes on their back? People were justifiably mad about it. It was because there wasn't enough resources to house and process them.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
This isn't caving, US Border Patrol NEEDs more funding.

You people remember that thread about how recently asylum seekers that have been admitted are just bused to a greyhound station and left there with nothing but the clothes on their back? People were justifiably mad about it. It was because there wasn't enough resources to house and process them.
The thing is I don't trust Trump to use it for such things. It won't be used on the border patrol, but on ICE.

I mean I'm glad you all have faith that this won't be used to build tensions at the border, but I just don't. I can't see how it won't. Trump and the GOP have proven themselves snakes over and over again that even if the Dems are doing this totally in good faith thinking this will HELP immigrants, the right will just twist it to their own designs.

Maybe I just need to take a break from or leave this thread because I'm honestly on the verge of an anxiety attack here. Just please, consider the negative consequences of this given who they're giving the money to with the only apparent condition being "no new structures". Because if they are baking in the judges and such into the proposal, the article nor the gentleman's statements made that remotely clear.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Per the article:




We desperately need more Immigration judges to alleviate the already massive backlog case load of Immigration cases, especially asylum proceedings. But, I guess reading is hard.

It says right there money for more CBP agents. Guess what those agents do all day? That's right, kidnap children. Your snarky response is completely wrong and ignorant.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,103
Konoha
It says right there money for more CBP agents. Guess what those agents do all day? That's right, kidnap children. Your snarky response is completely wrong and ignorant.

Let's let the 10 year old that walked miles in the hot sun all alone for a better life to fend for themselves. They aren't starving/dehydrated or anything.
 
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Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
They don't care about the wall either. They want 5 billion dollars so they'll have a full supply of jack booted thugs to tear apart families and let them die. This makes the actually worthwhile goal of abolishing ICE that much harder
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Let's let the 10 year old that walked miles in the hot sun all alone for a better life to fend for themselves. They aren't starving/dehydrated or anything.

They're starving and dehydrated because CBP agents drive around in the desert destroying food and water left for them.

Maybe if we have fewer agents they'll be doing better!
 

Killthee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,169
Does this proposal even get sent to him after the disastrous 24 hours the gop just had? Pelosi completely played him with the SotU, federal workers are protesting Mitch, his poll numbers are in the gutter, and he's committing obstruction of justice in front everyone... he might just cave to the 1.3 billion offer before the weekend is over.
 

Koo

Member
Dec 10, 2017
1,863
I think what upsets me most about this are all the good actually useful social programs that get cut, underfunded or never even get off the ground; but we can just toss $5 billion aside like it's nothing, as a pacifier. That on top of most of the border security money from last time going unused. I hate that this is what our gov't has come to; that actual citizens can't get help because it's never 'in the budget', but fuck it, let's bury billions in a hole in the ground and forget about it. But next time something comes up on the chopping block it'll be nothing but; 'Well how do we pay for it?'from the usual crowd.
 

Kibbles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,420
What a fuckin waste, worthless opponents of the shitty Republicans. We need a new party. I'm seriously done voting for these shitheels.
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
the United States government has no legitimate claim to this land and has no right to be waging a racist border war

and the Democrats aren't caving, they're just terrible too
 

Setsune

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,649
How is border security diet racism? The issue is the trump admin and their racist policys not "border security".

Channeling huge amounts of money toward border security is a move to appease the racist, wall or no wall. It's already been established they can function reliably with far less, and it's not even the leading cause of illegal immigration. And you know this money isn't going to be spent to make things better for immigrants, not this administration.
 

siddx

Banned
Dec 25, 2017
1,807
Stuff like this really shows just how eager people on here are to spaz the fuck out for no reason. It's a great move. Trump will most likely turn it down, at which point the dems can immediately run with "we offered 5 billion for border security and king bigot turned it down, he clearly doesn't actually care about border security or all the people suffering in this shutdown."
And if he doesnt turn it down they can run with "he promised you a wall but backed down and caved. No wall!"
 

Deleted member 29806

User requested account closure
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Nov 2, 2017
2,047
Germany
Channeling huge amounts of money toward border security is a move to appease the racist, wall or no wall. It's already been established they can function reliably with far less, and it's not even the leading cause of illegal immigration. And you know this money isn't going to be spent to make things better for immigrants, not this administration.
If it is spend on more judges that will help.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,103
Konoha
Channeling huge amounts of money toward border security is a move to appease the racist, wall or no wall. It's already been established they can function reliably with far less, and it's not even the leading cause of illegal immigration. And you know this money isn't going to be spent to make things better for immigrants, not this administration.
Except like others pointed out the trump admin can't just use the $5 billion for w.e there are stipulations. Border Security isn't just the Mexican border. Trusting trump means nothing because the money could only be spent on what's in said bill trump couldn't siphon money from the $5 billion to fund lets say new ford explorers for ICE.
 

Setsune

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,649
Except like others pointed out the trump admin can't just use the $5 billion for w.e there are stipulations. Border Security isn't just the Mexican border.

Except Trump "can't just" do a lot of things, but tries to make it happen anyway, and sometimes it even makes it through the courts. Which the GOP has been packing like crazy.

The money can be better spent elsewhere, and it looks like it's handing Trump a win.

Edit: Took out a line that seemed like I might be using a recent tragedy of the courts unfairly.
 

MorganFreakman

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
353
Not getting the outrage here. Border Security money is an easy give for dems. DOD gets some new tech and a couple of new CBP officers they can throw at the southern border (CBP is not ICE for those that are confused) and you completely dismantle the republican talking points.

Republicans are backed into a corner to defend the wall vs general border security (new tech and officers). We already know that isn't a winning issue for them according to recent polls
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,103
Konoha
Except Trump "can't just" do a lot of things, but tries to make it happen anyway, and sometimes it even makes it through the courts. Which the GOP has been packing like crazy. Ask our Transgender Military personnel.

The money can be better spent elsewhere, and it looks like it's handing Trump a win.
Trump will not accept anything without funding for his wall (his own words). Even if Trump accepts, he's fucked because his base will know this isn't a wall. They're digging a hole Trump will happily fall into.
 

Setsune

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,649
Trump will not accept anything without funding for his wall (his own words). Democrats now are creating a nice headline: Trump refuses $5 billion for border security, lets shutdown continue. Even if Trump accepts, he's fucked because his base will know this isn't a wall.

Oh, yes, Trump has never gone back on his word.

And his base won't know squat. It's "like" getting a wall, just as how it's "like" Mexico paying for it. Most of them don't care about what they demanded 5 minutes ago. They just want something they can call a win. Certainly T-bag will call it that.
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,248
This is a mistake.

It is normal in public administration to use money from different funds even though it isn't technically the formal way of funding projects. That 5 billion will be used for a structure.
 

aznpxdd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,671
Ugh, what a weak response. Trump's camp and others who have shifted their opinion during this shut down will see it as a win for him, and that's all that matters for 2020. 5 billion of unnecessary money given plus no protection for dreamers...
 

Sandstar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,748
Ugh, what a weak response. Trump's camp and others who have shifted their opinion during this shut down will see it as a win for him, and that's all that matters for 2020. 5 billion of unnecessary money given plus no protection for dreamers...

The democrats have a lot more to worry about than just the dreamers. A lot of people rely on the government, and digging in their heels, and waiting for Trump to break is just forcing government workers, and people who depend on government subsidies, to do without. Why are dreamers more important than the federal workers who can't afford to live on the no salary they're getting right now.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
The democrats have a lot more to worry about than just the dreamers. A lot of people rely on the government, and digging in their heels, and waiting for Trump to break is just forcing government workers, and people who depend on government subsidies, to do without. Why are dreamers more important than the federal workers who can't afford to live on the no salary they're getting right now.

The Democrats have already passed a bill that opens the government. It's getting a Senate vote tomorrow. Then it's up to McConnell and Trump whether they want government workers to be paid or not. There's really nothing we can do to make them.
 

Sandstar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,748
The Democrats have already passed a bill that opens the government. It's getting a Senate vote tomorrow. Then it's up to McConnell and Trump whether they want government workers to be paid or not. There's really nothing we can do to make them.

Spoilers: it probably won't pass. then what do you want them to do?
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Spoilers: it probably won't pass. then what do you want them to do?

The Democrats? What can they do? They've already passed a bill to reopen the government with no conditions. If the Republicans don't pass it, it's because they don't want to open the government. We can't actually make them. They control the Senate and the White House.

If you want the Republicans to open the government, go sit in their offices or call their staffers. There's literally nothing else to be done.
 

Exius

Banned
Jan 15, 2019
186
This is a win.

We DON'T need a wall.

We DO need border security and a proper, ethical method of screening immigrants and refugees and letting them into the country. To think otherwise is dumb.
 

Buzzman

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,549
We DO need border security and a proper, ethical method of screening immigrants and refugees and letting them into the country. To think otherwise is dumb.
An extra 5 billion dollars to CBP is not going to result in people suddenly being treated humanely.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
Channeling huge amounts of money toward border security is a move to appease the racist, wall or no wall. It's already been established they can function reliably with far less, and it's not even the leading cause of illegal immigration. And you know this money isn't going to be spent to make things better for immigrants, not this administration.

This is likely for drug enforcement/trafficking at checkpoints.
Ugh, what a weak response. Trump's camp and others who have shifted their opinion during this shut down will see it as a win for him, and that's all that matters for 2020. 5 billion of unnecessary money given plus no protection for dreamers...

No, because Trump explicitly campaigned on a wall. That's why he's so dug in.
 

Exius

Banned
Jan 15, 2019
186
An extra 5 billion dollars to CBP is not going to result in people suddenly being treated humanely.

I understand that my comment was more a response to the sentiment I often see here that any border security at all is somehow bad. I know there need to be major improvements to how we actually screen people.
 
Dec 16, 2017
2,032
There's a way to do border security correctly such as having more federal judges to hear asylum cases. People wanting the Democrats to dig in as much as Trump are advocating that American families go without food and shelter to encourage a civil war that will cost lives. Democrats need to appear willing enough to talk to give Republican Senators enough room to turn on the President.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
What they caving for?

Both Schumer and Pelosi previously explicitly stated that there would be no negotiations, no concessions, on border security until after government was reopened. That was the line -- pass the clean bill and then we'll talk.

Government hasn't reopened. Dems caved.

And they'll be expected to cave again in March with the debt ceiling. And with the next budget fight.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
Both Schumer and Pelosi previously explicitly stated that there would be no negotiations, no concessions, on border security until after government was reopened. That was the line -- pass the clean bill and then we'll talk.

Government hasn't reopened. Dems caved.

And they'll be expected to cave again in March with the debt ceiling. And with the next budget fight.

Have you considered that it's not a concession, and is what the dems--not repubs, want?

They didn't even spend the last money for border, right? They dont want the increased money. Dems do. This is all about the wall, which they are not getting.

In fact, this offer is expertly showing this. They won't take this offer, and a large part is because they dont care about the increased funding. This is about the wall.

He can tank his ratings and destroy lives again in March to give the dems what they want, just like this time.

You can disagree on whether more money should go to border security, but youd be disagreeing with the Democrats. They are getting what they want, if trump bites on this.

I guess you can call it a negotiation, but "give us everything we want and nothing you want" isnt much of a negotiation lol
 
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ProfessorLobo

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,523
Have you considered that it's not a concession, and is what the dems--not repubs, want?

They didn't even spend the last money for border, right? They dont want the increased money. Dems do. This is all about the wall, which they are not getting.

In fact, this offer is expertly showing this. They won't take this offer, and a large part is because they dont care about the increased funding. This is about the wall.

He can tank his ratings and destroy lives again in March to give the dems what they want, just like this time.

You can disagree on whether more money should go to border security, but youd be disagreeing with the Democrats. They are getting what they want, if trump bites on this.

I guess you can call it a negotiation, but "give us everything we want and nothing you want" isnt much of a negotiation lol
I wish I could quote every post in this thread that's trying to push the hilarious narrative of 'Dems wanted more border funding the whole time but Republicans HATE it' but I think I'd be at it all day.
 

Voyager

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,638
In one thread we've gone to the Democrats loving increased border security and Trump hating it 😂

Statement from DNC

"Democrats will continue to work toward comprehensive immigration reform that fixes our nation's broken immigration system, improves border security, prioritizes enforcement so we are targeting criminals – not families, keeps families together, and strengthens our economy."

All you neeed to do is look at Trumps twitter to see he thinks border security is a wall.

Oh, here's a bill introduced in the senate from 2018, all but one Democrat signed

DHS shall: (1) deploy the most practical and effective technology available in order to achieve situational awareness and operational control along the U.S. border; (2) submit to Congress a comprehensive southern border strategy to achieve border control; and (3) begin eradicating the carrizo cane plant and salt cedar along the Rio Grande River and the Lower Colorado River.

DHS may construct new ports of entry along the northern and southern borders.

The bill establishes Operation Stonegarden in DHS to provide border security grants to law enforcement agencies in border or maritime border states that are involved in U.S. Customs and Border Protection operations

DHS shall establish a two-year grant program to improve emergency communications in the southern border region for individuals who are at risk of violence and lack cellular and LTE network service.

The number of immigration judges is increased.

The President shall designate a senior official (Coordinator) to coordinate federal and international efforts to strengthen citizen security, the rule of law, and economic prosperity in Central America.

Edit: oh shit, there's more!

In 2013, every single Democrat in the Senate voted for the so-called Gang of Eight immigration overhaul bill that would have provided about $40 billion for border enforcement.
 
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