saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Why? Because people don't automatically agree with you? Or how bout when your argument is picked apart and you don't want to respond?

Nah i'm fine with disagreement. Plenty of people here i disagree with and i have no problem with that. But some posters literally trawl every business practices thread spewing corporate talking points and using every disingenuous argument possible. I'm being sympathetic calling it astroturfing. It would be worse if they were doing it for free. Or are you one of those people that doesn't believe astroturfing is a thing that exists?

Remember the Xbox One reveal at gaf? That was a fun time.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,293
I don't know how else to say this, but this is my last shot: if you build your entire business model (or even shift it) around MTX, then yes, MTX will become essential. Money would be lost. Nobody is arguing this. But Jim's presentation included a number of remarks on how the industry, or at least specific businesses, have created this need for themselves, in part by planning their budget around MTX and in part by unequally distributing value across the company. If your revenue is many multiple billion dollars, but you can only squeeze out a couple hundred mil and that only with MTX, you might think something is afoot. And of course something is afoot, but we're all stuck here arguing about a margin line that is the product of a business plan generated by the executives themselves.

Now we've talked about a ton of other stuff in just the last hour, so this alone isn't the problem. It's just one part. If you can't see that there is more to this than reading a profit summary, I don't know what to say.
"several hundred million"? You never said where you got that from. Since you're such a stickler for the details and ensuring all the math adds up, let's hear it.

So we agree that the profit margins would take a big hit without MTX, and in your own example those profit margins would completely collapse.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
no, but because certain posters have a post history where >50% are on very specific topics
ok and some maybe are but that specific thing seems to be a way to shut down any conversation and I haven't seen much substance actually coming from it.

Nah i'm fine with disagreement. Plenty of people here i disagree with and i have no problem with that. But some posters literally trawl every business practices thread spewing corporate talking points and using every disingenuous argument possible. I'm being sympathetic calling it astroturfing. It would be worse if they were doing it for free. Or are you one of those people that doesn't believe astroturfing is a thing that exists?

Remember the Xbox One reveal at gaf? That was a fun time.
Of course Astroturfing is a thing, I have no doubt there are some on this board but I find it pretty interesting when I see you and others that are say against MTX use it to shutdown conversations and it's been used multiple times in this thread and others.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Let's put it this way, eight years ago we'd already be on Overwatch 3.

I said literally in the very first post you quoted that these games are massive now. Neither the amount nor the quality of the content was up for debate. You'll notice that I personally also never called any of the content in the games "bloat" or similar. I am not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here but it has nothing to do with my original argument.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,293
Nah i'm fine with disagreement. Plenty of people here i disagree with and i have no problem with that. But some posters literally trawl every business practices thread spewing corporate talking points and using every disingenuous argument possible. I'm being sympathetic calling it astroturfing. It would be worse if they were doing it for free. Or are you one of those people that doesn't believe astroturfing is a thing that exists?
Which posters are you insulting with your baseless accusations?
 

ThankDougie

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,630
Buffalo
"several hundred million"? You never said where you got that from. Since you're such a stickler for the details and ensuring all the math adds up, let's hear it.

So we agree that the profit margins would take a big hit without MTX, and in your own example those profit margins would completely collapse.

I may be mixing up Ubisoft's profit and EA's. And no, we don't agree to exactly what you're saying because the question isn't just whether or not MTX is a necessity. The question also involves whether or not that necessity is baked into the pie by greedy executives and board members, who swallow up disproportionate amounts of revenue relative to the value they add and who purposefully design their business to run in a way that it doesn't need to run.

This has never been about one margin line or another and Jim's argument doesn't rest on that. Furthermore, your reading of the profit sheet has been lop-sided in favor of an argument you want to make about MTX, which isn't the whole subject anyway.

And, on top of that, I'm only being a stickler for details because you were so insistent that your interpretation of the earnings report was all that was needed to refute Jim's point. You're wrong. I have nothing further to say on this because I'm clearly wasting my time.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
"several hundred million"? You never said where you got that from. Since you're such a stickler for the details and ensuring all the math adds up, let's hear it.

So we agree that the profit margins would take a big hit without MTX, and in your own example those profit margins would completely collapse.

I think the point ThankDougie made is valid; if there's a tremendous potential for post-launch recurrent profit, it's reasonable you'll place your focus and resource there, as such you set up a scenario where not only profits from that area grow, but - with fewer resources to draw on - other areas become less lucrative.

In such a scenario, it's quite possible to set up the false impression that the original product is no longer solely viable, whilst in reality if resources were re-balanced, they could well be.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
54,050
I said literally in the very first post you quoted that these games are massive now. Neither the amount nor the quality of the content was up for debate. You'll notice that I personally also never called any of the content in the games "bloat" or similar. I am not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here but it has nothing to do with my original argument.
You can't put all of the blame on pubs as if consumer demand has had no effect on what they put out.
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,994
I think the part where he shows a Ubisoft slide about recurrent spending shows how easy it is for big publishers to manipulate gamers into keeping playing their game and keep spending. Its literally a money printing machine thats at work here.

1) Build big huge game with millions of investment.
2) Because of the rather low price of 60 dollars, sell millions of copies of said game (They could as well lower the standard price to 0 with all the MT money).
3) use the MT money thats made to keep making the game bigger and better and keep players playing
4) Get positive word of mouth and make the game even more bigger and better and repeat.

Its basically a trap to keep people playing and only taking huge amounts of money from a rather small percentage of the user base. Its not fair that a game that I play and like is funded by other gamers that play and like the game. Why should they pay for my entertainment? Its a stupid concept to begin with.
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Isn't this pure conjecture masquerading as fact?

Hellblade made money back and made a profit. It was a success for Ninja Theory and was also an experimental project with an intentional small team. They weren't betting the farm on Hellblade.

Correlation does not equal causation. It looks like to me you've made the assumption that they agreed to be bought by MS because of financial hardships, where that's not necessarily the case.

Happy to be proved wrong though.

Okay.

From the horse's mouth:

About four years ago, we very nearly disappeared as a company. Dozens, if not hundreds of developers like us were closing shop all around us. And we were told there was no future for developers like us: too big to be indie, too small to be truly AAA. We had to tell our team we were facing annihilation, and so we had to find another way.

We split our team of 100 people into several smaller teams which worked mostly on work-for-hire projects. These projects helped to fund our own original game, Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice. Our goal was to find a space between indie and AAA and to reclaim our creative independence. It took three years, a team of 20 people, and a budget of $10 million including marketing, but we did it.

https://www.hellblade.com/the-independent-aaa-proposition/
How have we survived? We focus on quality, stay on budget, ship on time but then, so have many others on this list. it comes down to this: we have been lucky.

By the time DmC launched, retail sales were nose-diving for all but the biggest hitters like GTA. As the next gen consoles weren't fully realised, no publisher was signing games for these, instead focusing on the internal teams they already had.

This was to coincide with the current transition into PS4/Xbox One and digital landscape and prove to be another tough chapter in NT history.

Yet here we were hitting a dead end on virtually every project because of sales-based decisions.

However, publishers are not making these calls out of spite, they are not the bad guys trying to crush creativity. What they are doing is responding reasonably to AAA market conditions with the evidence they have to hand.

The total budget of our game is a fraction of any of our previous games but the biggest problem to solve remains funding.

We are putting up most of the budget ourselves. For the rest, we are pursuing several strategies. When you own the IP, you can create a business. Any money we make here will be used to make a better game.

Hellblade was big risk and it was one funded by other work-for-hire (like Disney Infinity, which was shut down), tax breaks, and loans. And that was for under 20 people working on a game they were aiming to be 6-8 hours long, cutting as many corners as possible. (Their dev diaries show many of the kludges and fixes needed to make it work.) That cost $10 million. Three months in, Hellblade had a gross of $13 million. $3 million in profit, which seemingly wouldn't fund a year in dev.

And from the video, their reason for joining Microsoft:
We want to be free from the AAA machine and make games focused on the experience, not around monetization. We want to take bigger creative risks and create genre-defining games without the constant threat of annihilation.

And it behooves us to ask why Microsoft has the money to provide those resources, and the practices that lead to that initial pool of cash.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
54,050
ome posters literally trawl every business practices thread spewing corporate talking points and using every disingenuous argument possible.
Actual facts aren't corporate talking points fam.

Okay.

From the horse's mouth:



https://www.hellblade.com/the-independent-aaa-proposition/








Hellblade was big risk and it was one funded by other work-for-hire, tax breaks, and loans. And that was for under 20 people working on a game they were aiming to be 6-8 long, cutting as many corners as possible. That cost $10 million. Three months in, Hellblade had a gross of $13 million. $3 million in profit, which seemingly wouldn't fund a year in dev.

And from the video, their reason for joining Microsoft:


And it behooves us to ask why Microsoft has the money to provide those resources, and the practices that lead to that initial pool of cash.

Please stop using corporate talking points. /s
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,293
I may be mixing up Ubisoft's profit and EA's. And no, we don't agree to exactly what you're saying because the question isn't just whether or not MTX is a necessity. The question also involves whether or not that necessity is baked into the pie by greedy executives and board members, who swallow up disproportionate amounts of revenue relative to the value they add and who purposefully design their business to run in a way that it doesn't need to run.

This has never been about one margin line or another and Jim's argument doesn't rest on that. Furthermore, your reading of the profit sheet has been lop-sided in favor of an argument you want to make about MTX, which isn't the whole subject anyway.

And, on top of that, I'm only being a stickler for details because you were so insistent that your interpretation of the earnings report was all that was needed to refute Jim's point. You're wrong. I have nothing further to say on this because I'm clearly wasting my time.
You may be mixing up Ubi's profit and EA's? That's interesting, considering that earlier you were attacking me saying I was reading the data wrong.

Your whole premise here was that it's so important to get the right numbers and that the math should add up, you're a "stickler for details" as you said, so for the third time...

"several hundred million"?
 

Goronmon

Member
Nov 9, 2017
639
I think the point ThankDougie made is valid; if there's a tremendous potential for post-launch recurrent profit, it's reasonable you'll place your focus and resource there, as such you set up a scenario where not only profits from that area grow, but - with fewer resources to draw on - other areas become less lucrative.

In such a scenario, it's quite possible to set up the false impression that the original product is no longer solely viable, whilst in reality if resources were re-balanced, they could well be.

So, if microtransactions are used by already profitable companies, then they are being greedy and exploitative. And if microtransactions are used by companies to stay profitable, it's just because they planned it that way and they are greedy and exploitative. This reads a lot like either shifting the goal posts or just reframing any evidence to fit a predetermined judgment.

Not that I'm saying you are specifically making this argument, it just seems like a lot of people are avoiding discussing specifics or data and working really hard to find ways to discount any specifics or data that they don't like.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Of course Astroturfing is a thing, I have no doubt there are some on this board but I find it pretty interesting when I see you and others that are say against MTX use it to shutdown conversations and it's been used multiple times in this thread and others.

You know what shuts down conversation? Bad faith arguments, disingenuous strawmen, fumbled numbers, barrages of gifs and childish arguments, painting the opposing opinion holders as gamergaters, etc.

As with any argument about something that is considered the status quo, the only people interested in shutting down the conversation are those in favor of the status quo.

It was merely an observation based on what seem pretty strong indicators. If i had definitive proof i would present it but alas, only mods and admins could possibly have access to that kind of information.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,704
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
54,050
Bad faith arguments, disingenuous strawmen, fumbled numbers,
You mean like
-the implication that any facts are just corporate talking points, even from devs
-the post that was a bad "satire" of game development budgets
-the implication that any and all forms of monetization are inherently bad
-the really misinformed arguments that show a startling lack of how a game actually gets made let along how a studio is run
-Speaking of studios, the complete lack of acknowledgements about which studios have notorious working conditions vs. which ones are reported to have better working conditions, (because EA just HAS to be bad)
-The lack of acknowledgement towards the fact that the entire thread agrees that developers need to unionize
-Portraying shareholders and scroogemcduck caricatures
-Without a hint of irony presenting conspiracy theories about one's motivations to actual discuss these things with nuance or even on a case by base basis
-the ridiculous victimization that makes it seem like a game with MTs is ruining the industry
-The armchair developer bullshit
-People literally stating outright they'd be ok with thousands being out of work as long as it meant that microtransactions didn't exist in games because "oh the devs will just form smaller studios"

oh and cherry on top

-that you're an astroturfer if you too heavily disagree, (aka, dissect easily dissectable arguments made from misinformed people)

and more?
 
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saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I'm not sure where you are getting this gamergater accusation from.

What do you think the gamersriseup nonsense is?

Equating customers concerned with certain business practices with a hate and harassment movement should be bannable. Period. And yet it keeps happening with no repercussions.

things like that have been happening on both sides of the argument.

Heh not all of it. But to a certain point i agree with you on this.
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,674
Sweden
Nah i'm fine with disagreement. Plenty of people here i disagree with and i have no problem with that. But some posters literally trawl every business practices thread spewing corporate talking points and using every disingenuous argument possible. I'm being sympathetic calling it astroturfing. It would be worse if they were doing it for free. Or are you one of those people that doesn't believe astroturfing is a thing that exists?

Remember the Xbox One reveal at gaf? That was a fun time.
on gaf, i remember that certain admins made a conscious effort to look into the registration details (e-mail addresses and the like) of posters with suspicious posting histories and banning them

as far as i know, that's not really happening here, and i do notice an uptick in those sorts of posts compared to the last place
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
What do you think the gamersriseup nonsense is?

Equating customers concerned with certain business practices with a hate and harassment movement should be bannable. Period. And yet it keeps happening with no repercussions.



Heh not all of it. But to a certain point i agree with you on this.
I agree it should be bannable. I am mainly saying neither side comes out looking good on this.
 

ThankDougie

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,630
Buffalo
You may be mixing up Ubi's profit and EA's? That's interesting, considering that earlier you were attacking me saying I was reading the data wrong.

Your whole premise here was that it's so important to get the right numbers and that the math should add up, you're a "stickler for details" as you said, so for the third time...

"several hundred million"?

how else can I make this clear: your argument was that slim margins were reason enough to justify MTX; I simply took it for granted that the margins were slim. Many posts ago you used these figures to back up that assumption:

Ubisoft earnings first. Profit margin 17.3%, that's not especially "greedy". Operating income €300M, PRI revenue (MTX, dlc) €482.5M. Given that most PRI revenue is very high margin, it's easy to see how the MTX is a huge portion of the total income, and if you were to magically remove that income, the profit margins would collapse.

EA next. Profit margins for the 3 years 2016-2018 are actually about the same as the PS2 years 2003-2005. Last years operating income was $1.434BN. Ultimate Team alone (mostly FUT) was $1.081BN revenue. Again, very high margin, so almost all profit, and that doesn't even include the MTX from their other games. Subtract that income from the $1.434BN reported, and again profit margins would collapse.

Apologies for assuming your reading of profit margin was correct and running with it because the amount I'm quoting doesn't matter when the end result is the same, namely that encouraging a business model that depends on MTX will effect whether or not it looks like a company needs MTX to survive.

You're hammering away at a horse so dead it doesn't matter, but because you think I was too much a stickler about getting the salaries (and other compensation) of EA execs right (something you absolutely got wrong, just check page 35), you're insistent that I go deep into numbers with you and double check my EA and Ubisoft figures. Your argument is the same either way. It doesn't matter. My point, and Jim's, still stands.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
on gaf, i remember that certain admins made a conscious effort to look into the registration details (e-mail addresses and the like) of posters with suspicious posting histories and banning them

as far as i know, that's not really happening here, and i do notice an uptick in those sorts of posts compared to the last place

I sure remember that. Whole threads infected with damage control type posts. Dozens of bans. Fun times.

I have no idea what Era's mechanisms toward this are but, if they exist, i'm not sure they're working. It's not even these business practices threads alone tbf. Some hype threads lately legit read like advertisements. Even more than usual.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
Give me all SOCOM 1-3 and CA maps with a rebooted visual and lighting,
I am still baffled why this never happend during PS3-era. It was the gen of the shoot-bang and Sony was producing shooters galore. And there was a huge demand for Socom Remaster.
In nowadays environment it would make a bit less sense with all the Battle Royale craze, hero-shooters and Rainbow Six basically filling that spot on consoles, but it could still be a success.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I agree it should be bannable. I am mainly saying neither side comes out looking good on this.

Agree on this.

But.

One side is mainly arguing for fairer practices for both customers and workers.

The other side is mainly arguing that businesses exist to make money. And sometimes also for the workers.

I have little sympathy for one of those sides.
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,674
Sweden
-the post that was a bad "satire" of game development budgets
z7herxuo7fgh.png

-the implication that any and all forms of monetization are inherently bad
barely anyone argued this point. that's a strawman

most people are ok with dlc expansions and purely cosmetic, non-lootbox, non-publisher-fun-bucks microtransactions
-Speaking of studios, the complete lack of acknowledgements about which studios have notorious working conditions vs. which ones are reported to have better working conditions, (because EA just HAS to be bad)
plenty of people are talking about this in multiple topics.
-The lack of acknowledgement towards the fact that the entire thread agrees that developers need to unionize
giphytec6s.gif

-Without a hint of irony presenting conspiracy theories about one's motivations to actual discuss these things with nuance or even on a case by base basis
to be clear, i do not think you are an astroturfer. you post way too often, and to an alarming degree at slmost any hour of day, to be on the clock, lol
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
54,050
barely anyone argued this point. that's a strawman
Um no, arguably the most frequent posters in these threads argue that they are. In fact, that's Jim's, (and to a larger degree gaming youtubers who made a commodity out of making sure gamers are angry about corporations) entire MO.

most people are ok with dlc expansions and purely cosmetic, non-lootbox, non-publisher-fun-bucks microtransactions
Citation needed. As to reiterate, a jim sterling thread.

plenty of people are talking about this in multiple topics.
Multiple people ITT refused to acknowledge it actually. They just went with misinformed conjecture. By the way, it's not about "no fun allowed." it's the fact that people actually run with that. The idea that devs just need to "reduce costs lol" is quite frankly, transparent ignorance. If you want to have a discussion, then actually say something factual instead of running with incredibly naive conjecture and suggestions.
 
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CRIMSON-XIII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,187
Chicago, IL
I am still baffled why this never happend during PS3-era. It was the gen of the shoot-bang and Sony was producing shooters galore. And there was a huge demand for Socom Remaster.
In nowadays environment it would make a bit less sense with all the Battle Royale craze, hero-shooters and Rainbow Six basically filling that spot on consoles, but it could still be a success.



or at least SOCOM confrontation remastered. Which is a ps3 title and perhaps less work to get running on PS4 in full 1080p 60fps or 4k.
 

NullPointer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,249
Mars
Um no, arguably the most frequent posters in these threads argue that they are. In fact, that's Jim's, (and to a larger degree gaming youtubers who made a commodity out of making sure gamers are angry about corporations) entire MO.
Complete straw man. Nobody is bitching about Witcher 3 expansions and other quality content based DLC. I did't see these same conversations around AC:Origins story DLC either.
 

Mupod

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,022
Nah i'm fine with disagreement. Plenty of people here i disagree with and i have no problem with that. But some posters literally trawl every business practices thread spewing corporate talking points and using every disingenuous argument possible. I'm being sympathetic calling it astroturfing. It would be worse if they were doing it for free. Or are you one of those people that doesn't believe astroturfing is a thing that exists?

Remember the Xbox One reveal at gaf? That was a fun time.

Number of people I've run across on the internet that I have hard evidence of being paid shills: close to 0
Number of people I've run across on the internet who were most definitely console warriors for free: around eleventy billion
 

NullPointer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,249
Mars
The definition of "quality content" is incredibly arbitrary and subjective.
As it should be.

Its hard to make quality content that people will happily shell out their cash for, but that's the win/win scenario. Players win, company wins.

Easier and zero-sum is building a system meant to annoy and to wear down a subset of customers and then selling zero-content mathematical vapor that alleviates those issues.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Number of people I've run across on the internet that I have hard evidence of being paid shills: close to 0
Number of people I've run across on the internet who were most definitely console warriors for free: around eleventy billion

Hey, bish used to ban accounts on GAF that were legit astroturfing/shilling. While I don't doubt some of the days of companies giving a shit about forums are behind us, forums can still gain a sizeable enough audience for pubs and devs to take notice of feedback from some of the loonies like us who buy things day 1, fall in love with corporations and do as you said, free console fanboy warring.

You won't find extreme loyalty anywhere better than a forum/social media. Meanwhile, a sizeable portion of your audience may well shift around depending on how your overall marketing is/initial capturing of the "hardcore". See PS4 vs XB1, versus how well the 360 did against the PS3. Or see a sizeable enough dent in SWBF2 sales.

If there is anything companies want right now more than anything, it's MT defending and spreading the word basically all monetization is needed. It's such a powerful tool for normalization, especially if you can get enough gamers to drown out and shout down any dissenting views.
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
54,050
As it should be.

Its hard to make quality content that people will happily shell out their cash for, but that's the win/win scenario. Players win, company wins.

Easier and zero-sum is building a system meant to annoy and to wear down a subset of customers and then selling zero-content mathematical vapor that alleviates those issues.
When I think of a system made to annoy and wear down customers, I think of literally making it less intrusive than the last title.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,801
As it should be.

Its hard to make quality content that people will happily shell out their cash for, but that's the win/win scenario. Players win, company wins.

Easier and zero-sum is building a system meant to annoy and to wear down a subset of customers and then selling zero-content mathematical vapor that alleviates those issues.
Using Witcher 3 as an example of a system where company and customer wins doesn't work as the employees certainly don't win. 80% of the devs that had shipped Witcher 2 had left by the end of Witcher 3, it's known as one of the worst in the industry for work conditions and they aren't paid well either. And that's with GOG helping subsidising them. Asking devs to do what CDPR did to produce "quality content" so they aren't seen as "greedy" is going to result in alot of them giving you the middle finger.
 

NullPointer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,249
Mars
And that's with GOG helping subsidising them. Asking devs to do what CDPR did to produce "quality content" so they aren't seen as "greedy" is going to result in alot of them giving you the middle finger.
If quality content is too much to ask of game companies, then they don't deserve to stay in business.

I'd like to think of that as a pretty basic and non-controversial statement, but I know where I am.
 
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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,801
If quality content is too much to ask of game companies, then they don't deserve to stay in business.
Yep, I agree with those worker practises CDPR don't deserve to stay in business. I'm sure that's what you meant and not that all the other devs should be crunching constantly like CDPR or Rockstar or Naughty Dog just so you can get bigger, flasher games that have stayed the same price for 10 years.....
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
54,050
Yep, I agree with those worker practises CDPR don't deserve to stay in business. I'm sure that's what you meant and not that all the other devs should be crunching constantly like CDPR or Rockstar or Naughty Dog just so you can get bigger, flasher games that have stayed the same price for 10 years.....
ND isn't even an example, considering their games have incredibly grindy MP modes filled with MTs and even at times, p2w dlc.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,801
ND isn't even an example, considering their games have incredibly grindy MP modes and even at times, p2w dlc.
They do but for some reason people still count them as mainly a single player dev - and these are the devs that are constantly praised as the "good guys" the gmaer devs that truly want the best for their gamers and don't care about the money but their "art" and "pushing the limits" and yawn... They treat their people like a meat grinder.And they are constantly pushed as the example devs should follow if they don't want to be seen as greedy,
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
54,050
They do but for some reason people still count them as mainly a single player dev - and these are the devs that are constantly praised as the "good guys" the gmaer devs that truly want the best for their gamers and don't care about the money but their "art" and "pushing the limits" and yawn... They treat their people like a meat grinder.And they are constantly pushed as the example devs should follow if they don't want to be seen as greedy,
Baffling.