Destiny 2 Huge Power Level Changes for The Final Shape

[SirKai]

which boss was it if you remember?

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I don't remember. It was in the underwater dungeon introduced in the second season I think, and I really don't recall the specifics of the mechanics for the boss because I was basically just focusing on not dying while my two teammates did everything because only they did appreciable damage.

 

[Dakkon]

Unsunsetting the sunset guns lmao

Tinfoil hat theory, I think this points to Destiny 2 being close to EOL. Bungie is notorious for reusing the sunset guns to juice up seasons with content. But the fact they won't do that anymore….hmm.

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It's more that they already mechanically sunset all these guns anyways. Basically, every sunset gun right now sucks, even in PvP where basically all the modes except 1 have let you use Sunset weapons for ages now. No one uses them.

Guns we have now are better than older guns because:
* Enhanced traits exist
* Origin Traits exist
* Gun stats in general have trended higher over time, there's very few sunset guns with modern stat ranges

Legacy Armor would actually have more of a case (due to having impossible combos of things you can't do anymore) were almost all of them not broken by depreciated slots.

View: https://twitter.com/DattosDestiny/status/1783563694842183956
A big thing he did was rating and deciding on which items to cull from vaults. He basically made a series that was essentially calling out vault hoarders in Destiny 2 -- and a bunch of content creators had their vaults cleaned.

Of course they had no way of knowing this change was coming, but still, Datto and his videos got people to clear out old gear that will eventually be useful again.

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Datto didn't clear out anything that is useful because none of the sunset weapons are good compared to modern stuff.

Like in one of the comments at Datto's tweet someone is like "just wait until I pull out this bad boy" and it's a Better Devils with Steady Hand HCS sight, Flared Magwell, and only Explosive Payload (no 2nd trait). Not only is there better Better Devils (from Forsaken), but just about any 140 HC made in the past 2 years is better than that.

edit:

Actually, if the sunset weapons Masterworks still generated orbs on Multikills they'd actually have a case deadass, especially if it stacked with Siphons, but I'm like 75% sure that they don't because I think they changed all weapon Masterworks with that update.

 

[Stalker]

I don't remember. It was in the underwater dungeon introduced in the second season I think, and I really don't recall the specifics of the mechanics for the boss because I was basically just focusing on not dying while my two teammates did everything because only they did appreciable damage.

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Šimmumah ur-Nokru

100% the worst boss to fight in the game even today. I ran her multiple times for the past 5 weeks and we ended up getting her to a two phase but my group is also in the 1% of players with top tier gear and builds.

Shes absolutely AWFUL and you have all my respect for struggling through that fight. Shes way overtuned even for top tier players

 

[elproducto]

Are you actually going to play it, or is it just the principle of the thing?

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It's how it works, a post gets made about Destiny and people complain about vaulted content. People who actually play the game have gotten over it.

 

[SirKai]

Šimmumah ur-Nokru

100% the worst boss to fight in the game even today. I ran her multiple times for the past 5 weeks and we ended up getting her to a two phase but my group is also in the 1% of players with top tier gear and builds.

Shes absolutely AWFUL and you have all my respect for struggling through that fight. Shes way overtuned even for top tier players

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YEAAAH this was it haha. Wow that experience was misery. Our succeeding attempt to beat her took like 40+ minutes or something if I recall.

I enjoyed catching up on Dungeons from the prior expacs before/during Lightfall, but my experience with this dungeon basically pushed me out of the game. I was already a pretty casual player who didn't invest much effort to gearing or optimizing, so my interpretation was that D2 just wasn't a game I was "fit" to stay current in.

 

[Ash_Greytree]

There are certain guns from pre-randomization that you could extract from your Collections and have the power lock removed in The Final Shape. I think some of my fav guns were from Curse Of Osiris. Infinite Paths 8 and Travelers Judgment 5, my beloveds. Also some old Faction Rally weapons. I loved Song Of Justice VI and how it felt. Gonna have to pull that out of Collections if I can. When I get home from work I need to look at all the old guns I can dust off; even without those Origin Traits they're just fun to use.

 

[JaxiPup]

It's worth noting they mentioned most weapons will also return with origin traits and improvements, so great news overall.

I recently came back to destiny after a 4ish year hiatus and it's been a great time. I'm happy I didn't clean out my vault, even if we've power crept passed many of my old favorites. At the very least, many of the monument legacy weapons are going to become good purchases again, like Oxygen and 21% delirium.

Would like it if they could unvault the red war and forsaken though, I got my partner into the game and she's still really behind story-wise. Even just a few key story missions being added to timeline reflections would go a long way

 

[pants]

It's how it works, a post gets made about Destiny and people complain about vaulted content. People who actually play the game have gotten over it.

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Leveraged as a design criticism, I think Bungie would actually be in a rush to restore "old stuff" if there was any guarantee people actually came back (and stuck around) for it.

Though good will is absolutely a thing in good business 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Oliver James]

YEAAAH this was it haha. Wow that experience was misery. Our succeeding attempt to beat her took like 40+ minutes or something if I recall.

I enjoyed catching up on Dungeons from the prior expacs before/during Lightfall, but my experience with this dungeon basically pushed me out of the game. I was already a pretty casual player who didn't invest much effort to gearing or optimizing, so my interpretation was that D2 just wasn't a game I was "fit" to stay current in.

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This is widely considered to be the hardest dungeon even now. Last night I did this and the final boss took way longer than the rest of the time we took to get there. 4 phases is actually not bad for this boss.

 

[Dyno]

It's how it works, a post gets made about Destiny and people complain about vaulted content. People who actually play the game have gotten over it.

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It's more complex than that imo. I tried to come back to it and the removal of content left me baffled as to why I would, I wouldn't even be able go get the full story due to the cut content. At the time I returned a significant portion of the game was just D1 content that had been pulled in. It was entirely off putting and while I would have come back and was quite excited to, they instead lost me with the changes

 

[John Rabbit]

This so little entirely too late.

 

[Dakkon]

It's how it works, a post gets made about Destiny and people complain about vaulted content. People who actually play the game have gotten over it.

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Ehhh.

I've gotten over most of it, because I actually get it if they never vaulted anything this game would be close to 300GB right now and people would be upset about that instead.

But bare minimum the campaigns should still be in this game, I don't care about most of the vaulted strikes (altho more variety would still be nice), I don't care about the missing planets, but it'll forever be stupid to me that part of the story is literally not playable.

 

[YourFriendLevi]

I dove back in over a month ago after being lapsed since around the release of Beyond Light, and it was definitely a hurdle to parse what I needed to start doing and which content was relevant and how to be appropriately geared for content but once I got back into the swing of things it's been a ton of fun and the new onslaught drop has been a good change of pace just as I was starting to finish catching up on the content I was lapsed on.

Final Shape looks awesome, I'm hoping it can draw more players in because I'm surprised at how much I re-engaged with the game once it starting coming back to me. Probably put like 80 hours in these last few weeks. Making legacy gear relevant should ease the burden of trying to jump back in for players who only have access to gear from years past.

 

[SirKai]

This is widely considered to be the hardest dungeon even now. Last night I did this and the final boss took way longer than the rest of the time we took to get there. 4 phases is actually not bad for this boss.

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Nah our attempt was like 12 phases. I just assumed 4 phases would have been average/expected for a more balanced and prepared team.

But it's good to know this boss is hell in general, not just for me haha.

 

[Stalker]

It's how it works, a post gets made about Destiny and people complain about vaulted content. People who actually play the game have gotten over it.

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I mean I do get both sides on this, I'm Mr Destiny on ERA.. I used to do all the OT's and I've put more time in to this game both in game and in the community that is realistically healthy for a "hobby"

DCV absolutely sucked a lot of people got a lot of content they paid money for removed, Players for the most part have moved on but people straight up dropped the game because of it to and rightly so.

From Bungies perspective they issued some much needed engine upgrades and only had limited resources to keep all that content working as intended. The content was getting ridiculously low engagement rates and accounting for significant file sizes and bug testing and it wasn't relevant to the "live game" at all as players had long since power crept out of it's ranges.

We lost a lot of stuff I wish we hadn't, Strike, PvP and Gambit playlists got absolutely slashed of content and they still feel those side effects today. The amount of content rotated out of the vault (which was one of their core tenants, content cycling in and out) has been frankly very poor to.

It's unlikely it's ever coming back, there's too much stuff in the vault now to bring back out for even a dedicated team. It would require a significant time and money investment for bungie to restore that content and most of it would see absolutely tiny engagement metrics again and could more than double the games install size to 200GB+

Thankfully/Sadly we can just look forward now and Bungie have commited to never doing that kind of thing again.

I don't blame people for being bitter but I do wish we didn't have to derail any discussion of the game with it

 

[elproducto]

Leveraged as a design criticism, I think Bungie would actually be in a rush to restore "old stuff" if there was any guarantee people actually came back (and stuck around) for it.

Though good will is absolutely a thing in good business 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Bungie deserves criticism for a lot of things I don't disagree, but they haven't vaulted story content in ages. They really can't do anything right in a lot of people eyes.

I still love the game, but I'm there for the shooting and that is still top class.

 

[Stalker]

It's worth noting they mentioned most weapons will also return with origin traits and improvements, so great news overall.

I recently came back to destiny after a 4ish year hiatus and it's been a great time. I'm happy I didn't clean out my vault, even if we've power crept passed many of my old favorites. At the very least, many of the monument legacy weapons are going to become good purchases again, like Oxygen and 21% delirium.

Would like it if they could unvault the red war and forsaken though, I got my partner into the game and she's still really behind story-wise. Even just a few key story missions being added to timeline reflections would go a long way

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Expanding timeline reflections would be the best solution imo,

 

[Giolon]

Am I understanding this correctly? If you deleted/dismantled your old guns b/c they were sunset and useless, you're SOL?

"We understand that many old Power limited items have been dismantled by this point, and we regret that we have no recovery mechanism for these."

So saying that "All Sunset Weapons Restored" doesn't actually capture what's happening here. If you still have the guns, congrats they're good again! If you got rid of the guns b/c they were useless, well, hopefully you can find them again in the future once new ways to get them are added.

 

[darthbob]

Are you actually going to play it, or is it just the principle of the thing?

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I would play Red War again for the fun of it for sure. Osiris and Warmind probably not, but mostly I'd prefer having Mercury and Mars back.

 

[DieH@rd]

Lots of old weapons can be purchased from the tower kiosk [near the Vault]. There's a Legacy tab there. But all of them will seemingly start dropping again during gameplay.

IMO, the most wild change is that powerful engrams [+1] will start dropping randomly from almost every activity!!! No more only focusing on specific set of activities when trying to level up.

 

[Stalker]

Am I understanding this correctly? If you deleted/dismantled your old guns b/c they were sunset and useless, you're SOL?

"We understand that many old Power limited items have been dismantled by this point, and we regret that we have no recovery mechanism for these."

So saying that "All Sunset Weapons Restored" doesn't actually capture what's happening here. If you still have the guns, congrats they're good again! If you got rid of the guns b/c they were useless, well, hopefully you can find them again in the future once new ways to get them are added.

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Correct, but they have never ever had a process to recover things players deleted and to expect any way for that is frankly pretty absured given then thousands and thousands of items some players have deleted. Millions of items would have been deleted in the past year alone.

 

[elproducto]

I mean I do get both sides on this, I'm Mr Destiny on ERA.. I used to do all the OT's and I've put more time in to this game both in game and in the community that is realistically healthy for a "hobby"

DCV absolutely sucked a lot of people got a lot of content they paid money for removed, Players for the most part have moved on but people straight up dropped the game because of it to and rightly so.

From Bungies perspective they issued some much needed engine upgrades and only had limited resources to keep all that content working as intended. The content was getting ridiculously low engagement rates and accounting for significant file sizes and bug testing and it wasn't relevant to the "live game" at all as players had long since power crept out of it's ranges.

We lost a lot of stuff I wish we hadn't, Strike, PvP and Gambit playlists got absolutely slashed of content and they still feel those side effects today. The amount of content rotated out of the vault (which was one of their core tenants, content cycling in and out) has been frankly very poor to.

It's unlikely it's ever coming back, there's too much stuff in the vault now to bring back out for even a dedicated team. It would require a significant time and money investment for bungie to restore that content and most of it would see absolutely tiny engagement metrics again and could more than double the games install size to 200GB+

Thankfully/Sadly we can just look forward now and Bungie have commited to never doing that kind of thing again.

I don't blame people for being bitter but I do wish we didn't have to derail any discussion of the game with it

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Eloquently put, thanks.

 

[Oliver James]

Nah our attempt was like 12 phases. I just assumed 4 phases would have been average/expected for a more balanced and prepared team.

But it's good to know this boss is hell in general, not just for me haha.

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If you did this when it was released then it's more painful. I can run it without any problems now but the final boss is a real damage check without optimal strategy. Some popular D2 content creator even called this dungeon a better raid than Root of Nightmares.

Basically if your whole team took 12 phases it means it's not just you, it's your whole team, and you'll definitely get better. I remember when Prophecy took me and my other newb teammates took us 5 hours lol, now I run it in under an hour with any build I like with randoms.

 

[SirKai]

If you did this when it was released then it's more painful. I can run it without any problems now but the final boss is a real damage check without optimal strategy. Some popular D2 content creator even called this dungeon a better raid than Root of Nightmares.

Basically if your whole team took 12 phases it means it's not just you, it's your whole team, and you'll definitely get better. I remember when Prophecy took me and my other newb teammates took us 5 hours lol, now I run it in under an hour with any build I like with randoms.

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Oh yeah, we did do Root of Nightmares too, but for that one I was just hardcore carried by a legit team that really took the game seriously. And yeah that was nothing compared to that underwater dungeon lol.

 

[ezekial45]

Datto didn't clear out anything that is useful because none of the sunset weapons are good compared to modern stuff.

Like in one of the comments at Datto's tweet someone is like "just wait until I pull out this bad boy" and it's a Better Devils with Steady Hand HCS sight, Flared Magwell, and only Explosive Payload (no 2nd trait). Not only is there better Better Devils (from Forsaken), but just about any 140 HC made in the past 2 years is better than that.

edit:

Actually, if the sunset weapons Masterworks still generated orbs on Multikills they'd actually have a case deadass, especially if it stacked with Siphons, but I'm like 75% sure that they don't because I think they changed all weapon Masterworks with that update.

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I understand that, but previous sunset weapons will get a refresh to be more up to date with the current game. Obviously the vanilla and pre-Forsaken D2 weapons are totally compatible with the current game, but they are going to be given an update.

 

[Paperchampion23]

This is a start at least:

All old sunset weapons restored

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And removing power level requirements. If the most you have to do is complete campaigns or seasonal missions in the future to access the next expansions then restoring content might actually become a thing at this games EoL

 

[southwest]

Nice! Can't wait to jump back in

 

[Dakkon]

I understand that, but previous sunset weapons will get a refresh to be more up to date with the current game. Obviously the vanilla and pre-Forsaken D2 weapons are totally compatible with the current game, but they are going to be given an update.

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Sure, but people are going to have to regrind those new versions, so no one lost anything of value again.

 

[Grove]

They really can't do anything right in a lot of people eyes.

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The stuff they gutted is what matters most to new players. Red War campaign was the vast majority of the free2play experience that hasn't been replaced in any capacity and now the Dreaming City is just some really neat patrol zone with no context. The new light experience is baffling and honestly pathetic similar to World of Warcraft's new player experience. Who are these people? Why should I care? What am I doing? Who am I? Why are these people acting like I know them? Why are they referencing events that I haven't seen? It's weird as hell and the prompts to buy stuff constantly don't help.

Of course in both games you have legions of people who have been logging in daily since day one saying it's not a problem but how would they know or be able to relate?

 

[RoboPlato]

Great changes. Very happy about this. They've really been nailing the lead up to Final Shape the past month or so

 

[IIFloodyII]

Oh my god will this apply to the Halloween masks? Can I final look beautiful with my Calus head on?

 

[monketron]

Oh my god will this apply to the Halloween masks? Can I final look beautiful with my Calus head on?

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You mean giant pumpkin right? 😁

 

[elproducto]

The stuff they gutted is what matters most to new players. Red War campaign was the vast majority of the free2play experience that hasn't been replaced in any capacity and now the Dreaming City is just some really neat patrol zone with no context. The new light experience is baffling and honestly pathetic similar to World of Warcraft's new player experience. Who are these people? Why should I care? What am I doing? Who am I? Why are these people acting like I know them? Why are they referencing events that I haven't seen? It's weird as hell and the prompts to buy stuff constantly don't help.

Of course in both games you have legions of people who have been logging in daily since day one saying it's not a problem but how would they know or be able to relate?

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I get it to a point, but part of me wonders how reasonable it is to expect that a newcomer can just jump into a 7 year old live service game and expect to know whats going on right away. I take long breaks from Destiny, and when I jump back in it takes a few YouTube videos and some playtime to get a handle on new systems/mechanics but it's not impenetrable.

Anyway I keep derailing the thread after complaining about people doing the same so I'm gonna bow out. I can't wait for The Final Shape and the changes they are bringing.

 

[pants]

I would play Red War again for the fun of it for sure. Osiris and Warmind probably not, but mostly I'd prefer having Mercury and Mars back.

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Not poking fun at you; I think everyone wants to replay the Red War campaign in theory, because its solid, but in practice some data analyst probably has actual metrics which show people don't care about that stuff outside value propositions.

 

[Dakkon]

I get it to a point, but part of me wonders how reasonable it is to expect that a newcomer can just jump into a 7 year old live service game and expect to know whats going on right away. I take long breaks from Destiny, and when I jump back in it takes a few YouTube videos and some playtime to get a handle on new systems/mechanics but it's not impenetrable.

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Erm, it's super easy, when you don't remove story and actually try. I'm sorry, I love Destiny but this makes no sense as an argument. Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn is a year older than Destiny 1 and still has the full story in the game and a great tutorial. Guild Wars 2 is 2 years older than Destiny 1 and has the entire story still in the game other than a small section of Season 1 that we're still waiting on a remaster for and also has a great tutorial.

Plopping people half way into a story with no context and legitimately one of the worst tutorials I've ever seen is just bad. It has nothing to do with being a 7 year old live service game when 11 & 12 year old ones are doing just fine at it.

e:

Not to mention the game REGARDLESS OF YOUR ACCOUNT STATUS, still auto forces you into the newest season mission out of nowhere when a new season drops which is just....really really dumb.

 

[A Strong Latte]

I would play Red War again for the fun of it for sure. Osiris and Warmind probably not, but mostly I'd prefer having Mercury and Mars back.

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Mercury was basically a tiny little island. It's so small it almost seemed like a joke. Mars I do kinda miss sometimes.

 

[Grove]

Don't get me wrong, the game's storytelling would be in trouble with/without Forsaken and the Red War campaigns but there's a big difference between a new player eager to learn and immerse themselves and one that literally can't outside of YouTube videos from the start. That would happen eventually because of seasonal stuff disappearing too but it'd be nice if that "what the fuck is going on?" moment came 5-10 hours later and not thirty minutes into the game. Currently, the way they drop new players into this universe these days is baffling.

Good changes and I'm excited for TFS, don't wanna shit up the thread too much on the subject, I just wish it were different because I've had difficulty getting friends into it because the new player experience. Friends that I know for a fact would've loved the dungeon and raid content and these are guys that have thousands of hours in Europa Universalis, Warframe and Path of Exile so it's not like they hate complexity.

(For the record as someone that played both campaigns at launch, I wouldn't touch Forsaken and Red War's campaign even if they added them back in, but I'm a big advocate of a modular installer or even an offline campaign that's marketed as a prologue or something to that effect)

 

[Stalker]

Not poking fun at you; I think everyone wants to replay the Red War campaign in theory, because its solid, but in practice some data analyst probably has actual metrics which show people don't care about that stuff outside value propositions.

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We had some metrics for this actually, at the time of vaulting Warmind accounted for 5% of the games install size but occupied 0.3% of users total player time. It would be an even smaller amount now. I think some basic napkin math would place the games install size around 270gb right now if they only removed season content, if they removed absolutely nothing it would be well in excess of that.

There's still people with 500gb HDD's playing this game

Red War for many was a one and done experience and people at the time actively bemoned having to replay campaigns on additional characters.

 

[Nicko]

Unsunsetting the sunset guns lmao

Tinfoil hat theory, I think this points to Destiny 2 being close to EOL. Bungie is notorious for reusing the sunset guns to juice up seasons with content. But the fact they won't do that anymore….hmm.

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Yes exactly my thoughts. I am seeing a lot of similarities between Bungie's response to D1 EOL and D2.

Perhaps D2 will continue in some form for years to come, but also Evolve into D3 or whatever with a gear and progression reset yet again.

 

[darthbob]

Not poking fun at you; I think everyone wants to replay the Red War campaign in theory, because its solid, but in practice some data analyst probably has actual metrics which show people don't care about that stuff outside value propositions.

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No offense taken. I'll admit, I'd probably only play Red War again like once again.

It's more about... having it available because I spent money on it, and also because Destiny is a fairly disconnected experience currently, what with the actual earliest starting point being Shadowkeep. That being said, I'd also advocate for the Forsaken campaign returning as well.

Regarding analytics, I believe at some point prior to Beyond Light Bungie even stated how few players were engaging with content like Adventures or the Warmind campaign. It was indeed quite small, perhaps insubstantial, but that content now only being 'accessible' via YouTube videos is a shame, especially for new players.

 

[Zok310]

Some massive changes and very welcomed ones too. I have to ask tho, why not just make armor infusing possible across classes/account at this point if you are going to make power level
account wide?

 

[Stalker]

Some massive changes and very welcomed ones too. I have to ask tho, why not just make armor infusing possible across classes/account at this point if you are going to make power level
account wide?

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Functionally I expect nothing really at this point. Maybe they will to be honest.

 

[SinnyIndonesian]

Šimmumah ur-Nokru

100% the worst boss to fight in the game even today. I ran her multiple times for the past 5 weeks and we ended up getting her to a two phase but my group is also in the 1% of players with top tier gear and builds.

Shes absolutely AWFUL and you have all my respect for struggling through that fight. Shes way overtuned even for top tier players

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Oh, fuck that witch lol. Even during the weeks of the broken crafted weapons, I was struggling to solo that dungeon and that boss fight just completely stumped me. It's tough staying alive while doing all the mechanics, and when I did finally get to do DPS I was doing pitiful even with the broken weapons.

 

[Tulike]

"Power" was such a stupid concept from the beginning, especially when they kept increasing after every season, rendering the horrible pinnacle grind completely useless in 2-3 months time. The power numbers mean nothing, the damage numbers mean nothing, and I still remember that the "xp" numbers were completely arbitrary and did not correspond directly to the % of leveling bar. Everything together with sunsetting just makes me feel like a donkey chasing a carrot and Bungie never letting me have it when I play this game as if I'm not allowed to have "too much fun" playing a VIDEOGAME!

I had bought the last light expansion to check how it was and due to me not being "in the loop" with a lower power level, the first quest that I was dropped in, even before getting back to the towerand with all the gear that I had from Shadowkeep, was stupidly difficult, so much so that after 1 hour being beated to the ground I just gave up again and cut my losses.

Destiny never again.

 

[EvaUnit787]

I'll add to the sentiment, this is way too late for me to care, but why does power level being these numbers really matter? They have always been changing and resetting these numbers to what ever they want and it is the same scale no matter what number is the max.

Honestly I hope the rumors of a Destiny 3 are true and I can start from scratch. It is too late to care about 2 anymore, and I get that the barrier of entry has been made easier, but I just got tired of the activities available, not the loop itself. I love the shooting, I love the loop, but I need something new/different and every season I kept playing got old fast.

 

[Bizazedo]

Šimmumah ur-Nokru

100% the worst boss to fight in the game even today. I ran her multiple times for the past 5 weeks and we ended up getting her to a two phase but my group is also in the 1% of players with top tier gear and builds.

Shes absolutely AWFUL and you have all my respect for struggling through that fight. Shes way overtuned even for top tier players

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The fact they haven't gone back and adjusted her blows my mind.

 

[ArrogantBastard]

There is nothing that will ever pull me back into destiny 2. They need to just move forward, hopefully they do that.

 

[Potterson]

So... What will determine the enemies/loot level now?

 

[etrain911]

Are you actually going to play it, or is it just the principle of the thing?

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For me personally it's both. The new player experience is a complete mess and now you can't even get a picture of the full Destiny 2 campaign without watching it on YouTube.

 

[Bushy-Doe Blade]

Keep thinking of going back, but constantly feeding money into repetitive seasons with gimmicks (like pirates or haunted ships), gatekeeping for seemingly fun events too hard to solo for average players (requiring teammates), and rising learning curve even for those who played regularly, years ago… just sour me on the idea.

I remember attempting Grasp of Avarice solo nearly 50+ times one evening before just realizing it wasn't fun, and stopped.

Every now and then I think of finally trying Lightfall, but don't want to start the cycle all over again. If I jump into Final Shape, who's to say some parts of Lightfall will be accessible… because I remember buying Beyond Light and still had to kick out extra for some parts of Shadowkeep (and extra seasons). Not that I'm cheap, but the game constantly feels like it has it's hand out and it's annoying and makes it difficult to engage.

Edit: All of that moaning and I ended up playing the game and getting back into it this weekend 😩