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Interficium

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,569
so having one "raid" for a whole year is pretty shit when you look at what other MMOs do with their content cycles and expansions.

I hear this a lot from Destiny players. The reality is that even the gold standard, World of Warcraft, has many content droughts in excess of a year, in some cases 14+ months.

Go to the WoW forums. See how happy they are with Blizzard's cadence for content release.

Grass is always greener though, I suppose.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
Nightfall tip: focus the Knights. You focus the Knights! And you focus the Knights! And you focus the Knights!

grgEK.gif


Focus the Knights.
 

GutZ31

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56
Everyone's skepticism is warranted, and should be taken seriously.
That being said, we barely have any details of the things coming in this expansion. A large amount of Quality of Life issues we are all salty about are not the CoO teams duty, that is the Live Team's job, the same guys doing The Dawning.
If you haven't bought the expansion, I would suggest waiting for more info if the current climate has turned you off.

As for the rest of us Destiny shills, we already bought the expansion, so we will play test, and let you know if it was worth the advanced purchase.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
First paragraph is you assuming that's the reason bungie are using this terminology. I don't see how saying "its a new raid in an old location" would lead to assumptions or accusations of underhandedness after the fact. If it was indeed "a new raid in an old location", they could have just said that, especially when, as you said, we already had a relatively short raid in this franchise, Crota's End. So again, the very intentional distinction was made for a reason, and asserting "its a new raid" its irresponsible despite you not caring for people's expectations.

Bungie does not want you to think of this as "a new raid".

It's not much of an assumption when you have the "playable space" fiasco Y1 of D1 because people made the wrong assumptions. And if you actually go back to the VOD, right after they explain what a Raid Lair is, the devs straight up say they went with this so that they can put out raids more often because they love raids. They used "Raid activity" and "Raid Lair" specifically because they're getting in front of the group that would whine and moan about it being called a new raid when it's in the same location. Unfortunately they still didn't avoid dramatic over reaction because now we're sitting here looking at this "it's not a 'real' raid" hot take junk.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
I hear this a lot from Destiny players. The reality is that even the gold standard, World of Warcraft, has many content droughts in excess of a year, in some cases 14+ months.

Go to the WoW forums. See how happy they are with Blizzard's cadence for content release.

Grass is always greener though, I suppose.
You say that, but then actually looking at WoW's content despite the droughts is incredibly better and far more interesting for their players. But that isn't the main problem here, it's the lack of a gameplay loop to bring you back but not make it feel drawn out.

Hell I'm PL 278 and I'm starting to feel it hard because I know there's more levels to go but the game is actively working against me by not providing meaningful, repetitive content to gain that character increase. Whether there carrot on a stick will be mentioned and offered a fix in the next two streams is anyone's guess, but to me that's the current issue with D2.
 

igordennis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
385
I can't understand people being disappointed at this raid lair stuff. Throughout Destiny 1's lifespan, there were 2 DLCs sold for the same price as these 2 first ones (TDB and HoW), one medium sized DLC (RoI) and one actual big expansion (TTK). The naming scheme (expansions must be huge additions of content blablabla) doesn't matter. Thats what they were.

So far we got info on the first DLC and it is considerably more expansive than what we got for The Dark Below. Do people even remember the pathetic excuse for the "story" in that DLC? Basically 2 recycled story missions? This DLC has been said to have 2-3 hours of story content alone which will not be recycled content AT ALL given that its on a new destination. Also yeah, there is a new destination. Something that was delivered only in the medium sized DLC and actual big expansion in Destiny 1. The Dark Below and House of Wolves had nothing even remotely close to getting a new area and social space to go to like Mercury.

Then people complain that "i don't see how this raid lair is supposed to be a worthy substitute for an ACTUAL NEW RAID" and so people cite the fact that omg The Dark Below had a brand new raid, Crota's End, the raid literally done by a cobbled together team at Bungie in TWO months. The raid that was always made fun of how pathetically glitchy and short it was and one that i even saw comments that they shouldn't have made a raid at all if thats what they were going to deliver back in the day. The entirety of The Dark Below was a mess because of how rushed it was. Bungie had no idea what they were setting themselves up with that DLC promise back then because they were still trying to figure out what Destiny was supposed to be. Remember rexurbishing? Stuff like that happens when no thought is given to figuring out what the fuck they were gonna do with the DLC because they didnt have time to put that thought. They just did stuff.

The fact that they never did a system of DLC like that for the rest of Destiny 1's lifespan is all you need to know that was not working out for Bungie. Because Crota's End is really the only thing people can cite that Destiny 1 delivered "more raids" for less. Because year 2 had one raid for one entire year, King's Fall. And then year 3 once again, had one raid for the entirety of the year, Wrath of the Machine. That was 2 entire years with 2 raids and NOTHING else. No raid lairs, no nothing. That was the system that we had, because Crota's End is not something Bungie wanted to do again and i don't think is something they ended up being all that proud of.

So now with Destiny 2 with this new lair system we would be getting wayyyy more raid content per year than the rate at which Destiny 1 effectively delivered to us in its lifespan and i see people complaining that the old system was better? I just can't see it.
 

WesleyShark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,589
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
I can't understand people being disappointed at this raid lair stuff. Throughout Destiny 1's lifespan, there were 2 DLCs sold for the same price as these 2 first ones (TDB and HoW), one medium sized DLC (RoI) and one actual big expansion (TTK). The naming scheme (expansions must be huge additions of content blablabla) doesn't matter. Thats what they were.

So far we got info on the first DLC and it is considerably more expansive than what we got for The Dark Below. Do people even remember the pathetic excuse for the "story" in that DLC? Basically 2 recycled story missions? This DLC has been said to have 2-3 hours of story content alone which will not be recycled content AT ALL given that its on a new destination. Also yeah, there is a new destination. Something that was delivered only in the medium sized DLC and actual big expansion in Destiny 1. The Dark Below and House of Wolves had nothing even remotely close to getting a new area and social space to go to like Mercury.

Then people complain that "i don't see how this raid lair is supposed to be a worthy substitute for an ACTUAL NEW RAID" and so people cite the fact that omg The Dark Below had a brand new raid, Crota's End, the raid literally done by a cobbled together team at Bungie in TWO months. The raid that was always made fun of how pathetically glitchy and short it was and one that i even saw comments that they shouldn't have made a raid at all if thats what they were going to deliver back in the day. The entirety of The Dark Below was a mess because of how rushed it was. Bungie had no idea what they were setting themselves up with that DLC promise back then because they were still trying to figure out what Destiny was supposed to be. Remember rexurbishing? Stuff like that happens when no thought is given to figuring out what the fuck they were gonna do with the DLC because they didnt have time to put that thought. They just did stuff.

The fact that they never did a system of DLC like that for the rest of Destiny 1's lifespan is all you need to know that was not working out for Bungie. Because Crota's End is really the only thing people can cite that Destiny 1 delivered "more raids" for less. Because year 2 had one raid for one entire year, King's Fall. And then year 3 once again, had one raid for the entirety of the year, Wrath of the Machine. That was 2 entire years with 2 raids and NOTHING else. No raid lairs, no nothing. That was the system that we had, because Crota's End is not something Bungie wanted to do again and i don't think is something they ended up being all that proud of.

So now with Destiny 2 with this new lair system we would be getting wayyyy more raid content per year than the rate at which Destiny 1 effectively delivered to us in its lifespan and i see people complaining that the old system was better? I just can't see it.
10/10. Well said.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
I can't understand people being disappointed at this raid lair stuff. Throughout Destiny 1's lifespan, there were 2 DLCs sold for the same price as these 2 first ones (TDB and HoW), one medium sized DLC (RoI) and one actual big expansion (TTK). The naming scheme (expansions must be huge additions of content blablabla) doesn't matter. Thats what they were.

So far we got info on the first DLC and it is considerably more expansive than what we got for The Dark Below. Do people even remember the pathetic excuse for the "story" in that DLC? Basically 2 recycled story missions? This DLC has been said to have 2-3 hours of story content alone which will not be recycled content AT ALL given that its on a new destination. Also yeah, there is a new destination. Something that was delivered only in the medium sized DLC and actual big expansion in Destiny 1. The Dark Below and House of Wolves had nothing even remotely close to getting a new area and social space to go to like Mercury.

Then people complain that "i don't see how this raid lair is supposed to be a worthy substitute for an ACTUAL NEW RAID" and so people cite the fact that omg The Dark Below had a brand new raid, Crota's End, the raid literally done by a cobbled together team at Bungie in TWO months. The raid that was always made fun of how pathetically glitchy and short it was and one that i even saw comments that they shouldn't have made a raid at all if thats what they were going to deliver back in the day. The entirety of The Dark Below was a mess because of how rushed it was. Bungie had no idea what they were setting themselves up with that DLC promise back then because they were still trying to figure out what Destiny was supposed to be. Remember rexurbishing? Stuff like that happens when no thought is given to figuring out what the fuck they were gonna do with the DLC because they didnt have time to put that thought. They just did stuff.

The fact that they never did a system of DLC like that for the rest of Destiny 1's lifespan is all you need to know that was not working out for Bungie. Because Crota's End is really the only thing people can cite that Destiny 1 delivered "more raids" for less. Because year 2 had one raid for one entire year, King's Fall. And then year 3 once again, had one raid for the entirety of the year, Wrath of the Machine. That was 2 entire years with 2 raids and NOTHING else. No raid lairs, no nothing. That was the system that we had, because Crota's End is not something Bungie wanted to do again and i don't think is something they ended up being all that proud of.

So now with Destiny 2 with this new lair system we would be getting wayyyy more raid content per year than the rate at which Destiny 1 effectively delivered to us in its lifespan and i see people complaining that the old system was better? I just can't see it.

Agreed 100%

We are getting straight upgrades compared to D1 and yet the reactions are the same
 

BLLYjoe25

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,969
got to 290 today :) not quite sure if i'll get to 305 by the Osiris expansion though.

the new drivers have made the game run better. there is still some hitching but very minor. i was torn between PS4 or PC going forward but I think I'll be sticking with PC. i just hope it's not a problem if i don't reach 305 in time for the expansion.
 

Strider

Member
Oct 25, 2017
474
USA
Yea it's a bit crazy seeing people disappointed in the upcoming Osiris DLC and citing "Dark Below had an entirely new raid" as their big reason. Dark Below is literally the worst DLC I've ever bought from any game. It was so bad that I dropped the game entirely until TTK launched despite having already spent the $ because it was worth none of my time. Hell TDB is the reason I still have not bought the season pass for D2... Bungie took me for a ride once but I need to be sure I'll enjoy it this time...

I do at times wish I had jumped back in at HoW though... Lots of people say this was when D1 was at it's best in both PvP and PvE (mostly PvP tho). I was still way too salty over TDB to play Destiny again when it released though.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
Yea it's a bit crazy seeing people disappointed in the upcoming Osiris DLC and citing "Dark Below had an entirely new raid" as their big reason. Dark Below is literally the worst DLC I've ever bought from any game. It was so bad that I dropped the game entirely until TTK launched despite having already spent the $ because it was worth none of my time. Hell TDB is the reason I still have not bought the season pass for D2... Bungie took me for a ride once but I need to be sure I'll enjoy it this time...

I do at times wish I had jumped back in at HoW though... Lots of people say this was when D1 was at it's best in both PvP and PvE (mostly PvP tho). I was still way too salty over TDB to play Destiny again when it released though.

Yeah I didint even touch Dark Below until HoW came around and made D1 fun

Seriously D1 kind of sucked ALL the way until HoW came and saved the world
 

aarcane

Member
Oct 27, 2017
122
I can't understand people being disappointed at this raid lair stuff. Throughout Destiny 1's lifespan, there were 2 DLCs sold for the same price as these 2 first ones (TDB and HoW), one medium sized DLC (RoI) and one actual big expansion (TTK). The naming scheme (expansions must be huge additions of content blablabla) doesn't matter. Thats what they were.

So far we got info on the first DLC and it is considerably more expansive than what we got for The Dark Below. Do people even remember the pathetic excuse for the "story" in that DLC? Basically 2 recycled story missions? This DLC has been said to have 2-3 hours of story content alone which will not be recycled content AT ALL given that its on a new destination. Also yeah, there is a new destination. Something that was delivered only in the medium sized DLC and actual big expansion in Destiny 1. The Dark Below and House of Wolves had nothing even remotely close to getting a new area and social space to go to like Mercury.

Then people complain that "i don't see how this raid lair is supposed to be a worthy substitute for an ACTUAL NEW RAID" and so people cite the fact that omg The Dark Below had a brand new raid, Crota's End, the raid literally done by a cobbled together team at Bungie in TWO months. The raid that was always made fun of how pathetically glitchy and short it was and one that i even saw comments that they shouldn't have made a raid at all if thats what they were going to deliver back in the day. The entirety of The Dark Below was a mess because of how rushed it was. Bungie had no idea what they were setting themselves up with that DLC promise back then because they were still trying to figure out what Destiny was supposed to be. Remember rexurbishing? Stuff like that happens when no thought is given to figuring out what the fuck they were gonna do with the DLC because they didnt have time to put that thought. They just did stuff.

The fact that they never did a system of DLC like that for the rest of Destiny 1's lifespan is all you need to know that was not working out for Bungie. Because Crota's End is really the only thing people can cite that Destiny 1 delivered "more raids" for less. Because year 2 had one raid for one entire year, King's Fall. And then year 3 once again, had one raid for the entirety of the year, Wrath of the Machine. That was 2 entire years with 2 raids and NOTHING else. No raid lairs, no nothing. That was the system that we had, because Crota's End is not something Bungie wanted to do again and i don't think is something they ended up being all that proud of.

So now with Destiny 2 with this new lair system we would be getting wayyyy more raid content per year than the rate at which Destiny 1 effectively delivered to us in its lifespan and i see people complaining that the old system was better? I just can't see it.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. Looking back, I can't believe how lacking in story missions TDB was. Fist of Crota, Siege of the Warmind and The Wakening. Then wander about on patrol killing a few random Hive (fuck you, Urzok the Hated) followed by another very short mission where you kill an ogre because Eris wants its eyes. Or something. And let's not forget everyone's favourite strike: Omnigul!

It's easier to list what I liked about The Dark Below: Black Hammer, Blades of Crota in patrol and the Y1 version of LDR 5001 which could roll Field Scout and... Final Round (I'm sorry).
 

-PXG-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,186
NJ
Just because post release content was a mess and poorly managed in Destiny 1 doesn't mean I should automatically lower my expectations and just be happy with whatever I get in Destiny 2.

Unless these lairs are drastically different, from a visual and mechanial stand point, it just seems ultimately pointless to do all of this stuff on Mercury, with Osiris and the Vex. Instead of being my next, awesome adventure, it just feels like some side task that exists in a vacuum.

They've been teasing Osiris and Mercury for ages. And the culmination of all of this? Going back to the Leviathan for some oddball reason.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
Just because post release content was a mess and poorly managed in Destiny 1 doesn't mean I should automatically lower my expectations and just be happy with whatever I get in Destiny 2.

Unless these lairs are drastically different, from a visual and mechanial stand point, it just seems stupid to do all of this stuff on Mercury, with Osiris and the Vex. It makes then entire ordeal pointless. Instead of being my next, awesome adventure, it just feels like some side task. They've been teasing Osiris and Mercury for ages. And the culmination of all of this? Going back to the Leviathan for some oddball reason.


See this is a criticism i can get behind. If they were going to do smaller raid content regularly anyways why not stagger the Leviathan expansion and do a Vex Min raid first. Then dole out mini 6 man content every 3-6 months before the main team drops the next Full Raid

At the very least it would be nice to do Vex themed content first with the DLC before expanding Leviathan so I get that point
 

optimus8936

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,174
I can't understand people being disappointed at this raid lair stuff. Throughout Destiny 1's lifespan, there were 2 DLCs sold for the same price as these 2 first ones (TDB and HoW), one medium sized DLC (RoI) and one actual big expansion (TTK). The naming scheme (expansions must be huge additions of content blablabla) doesn't matter. Thats what they were.

So far we got info on the first DLC and it is considerably more expansive than what we got for The Dark Below. Do people even remember the pathetic excuse for the "story" in that DLC? Basically 2 recycled story missions? This DLC has been said to have 2-3 hours of story content alone which will not be recycled content AT ALL given that its on a new destination. Also yeah, there is a new destination. Something that was delivered only in the medium sized DLC and actual big expansion in Destiny 1. The Dark Below and House of Wolves had nothing even remotely close to getting a new area and social space to go to like Mercury.

Then people complain that "i don't see how this raid lair is supposed to be a worthy substitute for an ACTUAL NEW RAID" and so people cite the fact that omg The Dark Below had a brand new raid, Crota's End, the raid literally done by a cobbled together team at Bungie in TWO months. The raid that was always made fun of how pathetically glitchy and short it was and one that i even saw comments that they shouldn't have made a raid at all if thats what they were going to deliver back in the day. The entirety of The Dark Below was a mess because of how rushed it was. Bungie had no idea what they were setting themselves up with that DLC promise back then because they were still trying to figure out what Destiny was supposed to be. Remember rexurbishing? Stuff like that happens when no thought is given to figuring out what the fuck they were gonna do with the DLC because they didnt have time to put that thought. They just did stuff.

The fact that they never did a system of DLC like that for the rest of Destiny 1's lifespan is all you need to know that was not working out for Bungie. Because Crota's End is really the only thing people can cite that Destiny 1 delivered "more raids" for less. Because year 2 had one raid for one entire year, King's Fall. And then year 3 once again, had one raid for the entirety of the year, Wrath of the Machine. That was 2 entire years with 2 raids and NOTHING else. No raid lairs, no nothing. That was the system that we had, because Crota's End is not something Bungie wanted to do again and i don't think is something they ended up being all that proud of.

So now with Destiny 2 with this new lair system we would be getting wayyyy more raid content per year than the rate at which Destiny 1 effectively delivered to us in its lifespan and i see people complaining that the old system was better? I just can't see it.
Couldn't have said it any better.

Crota was a buggy strike, and that whole DLC was a mess. CoO is a massive improvement over TDB, and arguably even HoW.

There have been a lot of rose tinted glasses over D1 ever since this game launched and it blows my mind.
 

-PXG-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,186
NJ
See this is a criticism i can get behind. If they were going to do smaller raid content regularly anyways why not stagger the Leviathan expansion and do a Vex Min raid first. Then dole out mini 6 man content every 3-6 months before the main team drops the next Full Raid

At the very least it would be nice to do Vex themed content first with the DLC before expanding Leviathan so I get that point

I'm criticising this from a lore, logic and contextual standpoint. It might seem silly to some, but I'm REALLY invested in this universe.

I said before this should have come later, as a mid year/ mid season update. Everyone and their cousin was expecting some kind of Vex end game activity.

So, say the Fall 2018 expansion has a Hive theme. Lemme guess, is that when we finally get our Mercury raid?
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
I'm criticising this from a lore, logic and contextual standpoint. It might seem silly to some, but I'm REALLY invested in this universe.

I said before this should have come later, as a mid year/ mid season update. Everyone and their cousin was expecting some kind of Vex end game activity.

So, say the Fall 2018 expansion has a Hive theme? Lemme guess, is that when we finally get our Mercury raid?

Well im thinking infinite Forest will have some Endgame activities but it wont be 6 man from what I can tell

Not sure. Wont know more about it till next week. Infinite forest seems woven into the main campaign and patrol as well. Im hoping its similar in size and scope to something like Prison of Elders
 

BLLYjoe25

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,969
For those in the UK playing on PC...Green Man Gaming is doing 10% off the expansion pass which makes it £26.99 but if you make a new account you get another 15% off bringing it down to £22.94
 

Hawkeye 131

Member
Oct 27, 2017
452
Canada
For those that can't understand why some of us are displeased with the fact that we're not getting a new Raid.

I guess I can only speak for myself but it's NOT that I'm not interested in whatever this new "Lair" content turns out to be. I really like Leviathan, I think it's a great Raid with fun, engaging and interesting mechanics. The lore surrounding the Raid is intriguing, the atmosphere is amazing (essentially the lost city of El Dorado on top of a massive planet eating spaceship) and it's just an all around cool experience. This new Lair content COULD be interesting, new areas, new bosses, new encounters, new mechanics etc... ALL still within the Leviathan HOWEVER, if what we end up getting is just the same existing areas or layouts with slightly modified encounters and mechanics and a new final boss then (IMO), it would be a complete wast of time, resources and content.

All that being said, I expected to see a brand new Raid. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that or ask for one with each new expansion, (why I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation could be discussed later). And yes, what they did show does look very good. It's a new destination, with a new social space, patrols, missions, adventures, strikes and lost sectors to explore plus an intriguing character, story campaign as well as new weapons, armour and gear to earn. That's all good and interesting, I just would have preferred a new Raid to go along with it. Especially considering the context and circumstances of this DLC, I mean Vex, Osiris and Mercury all lends very well to a new Vex themed Raid. Time travelling between different areas/dimensions/encounters fighting past, present and future Vex gets the imagination spinning.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,543
Germany
People always put so much weight on the raids in Destiny.
I really can't personally relate to it.
It's content that gets beaten on day 1 by some streamers, the tactics/strats go out, maybe some people will still run it blind once in the following weeks.
Then it's put on farm, everyone does the proper strategy and that's it.
Like, we were laughing in our raid group yesterday at the fact DeeJ said "If you don't have say 3 hours to do the normal raid, do this shorter raid lair" while we went through the raid in like 45 minutes. And we even took our time a bit.
Like, the raids aren't insane, amazing, unbelievably replayable content that always changes and challenges you. They are like every other content which is "do it once, you have seen all that happens, now you can do it more if you wish but it'll be the same regardless".
So because of this I really can't relate to this unbelievable love and reverence of raid content.

What I CAN relate to is people wishing for entirely new assets,location,enemies in a new raid instead of setting it in the same place,albeit a different area of it.
 

MochaD124

Member
Oct 25, 2017
354
Maybe I'll just sort the void setup before trying HZD... lol
I still have a couple of power engrams to get this week for the Warlock so there's some gear straight away that'll be 300 for it.

Those 17 hours were pretty damn fun though!

Just go find the restorative sets from vendors and pick one or two that look nice and get you as close to 10 recovery as possible. I am a big fan of the raid gear, the fwc set, and the gensym knight set from io.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
I think what sucks most is that this kind of shuts down the idea that the next major raid will be Mercury or Mars related

Which is a bummer that it just takes those cool places off the table

Do we have any inclination as to what the September content drop will focus on? What area comes after mars in the final cutscene?
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,329
I think what sucks most is that this kind of shuts down the idea that the next major raid will be Mercury or Mars related

Which is a bummer that it just takes those cool places off the table

Do we have any inclination as to what the September content drop will focus on? What area comes after mars in the final cutscene?

The prevailing thought is that it will be Hive focused with Oryx's sister (?) being the main villian.

Where is the info on story missions from the first expansion being re-purposed as Strikes coming from?
 

MochaD124

Member
Oct 25, 2017
354
I was initially feeling a bit underwhelmed after seeing the new campaign previews and hearing about the raid lair.

The new missions will still be fun though rven if the actually story elements are a bit bland.

After hearing people talk about how bad of an experience Crota's was I am a bit more hopeful for the raid lair as it is smaller in scope and should have more thought out encounters and challenges.

The new content will probably be very enjoyable but I don't believe this will bring back the playerbase for longer than a month tops. Once you finish the new campain and raid lair you are back at square one grinding for the few new sets and getting to max level if it matters to you.

We will have to wait and see what more is revealed in the coning weeks through their streams. I will definitely get in as soon as it drops but I just hope more people will be coming back to stay a while as well.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,329
Hmm?

I have no idea on that last part. Havent heard anything about that

I found the info on the second part but be careful if you are worried about spoilers (in the actual article)...

http://www.pcgamer.com/destiny-2s-f...be-expected-to-fix-the-endgame-single-handed/

In terms campaign length, I saw eight missions, two of which are substantial enough that they're going to be added to the Strike pool, and you can reasonably expect to play through it in a solid session. I sense some fans may find the duplication of the story missions as strikes disappointing, so I asked project lead Sam Jones about it. "If you remember the director map from Destiny 1, we had strikes featured as part of the destination as a discrete standalone activity," he said, "and it complimented the overall story for a given destination. What we're doing is akin to that. It's not exactly the same, but it's a natural evolution."

It's true that for The Taken King, the Sunless Cell and Shield Brothers strikes were woven into the main story. Jones added: "We also feel like our strike activities are some of our most expensive, most well-produced content. Not everyone gets to play that that much, so we want to put [these strikes] front-and-center to try and make sure more people can access that content and see it as a part of the mainstream campaign."

I'm more interested in the stuff after the campaign such as the Quests that allow you to forge new weapons and the new end-game activities on Mercury they briefly mentioned in yesterday's stream.

I have zero desire to go back to the Leviathan palace/game show/connect four, fisher-price type challenge rooms but would be interested in Raid-like encounters in the underbelly/Cabal War Fortress type environments.
 
Last edited:

Zereta

Member
Oct 26, 2017
317
Okay, I've had time to fully look at all the stuff revealed yesterday and have read some of the discussion on here. Here are my thoughts:

Mercury and story: This campaign looks hella amazing. Osiris and his ghost sound amazing and the premise, as with all Destiny shit, feels intriguing and mysterious as ever. We don't know a lot about what the story is but rightfully so. We have gotten a decent look at the kind of environment Mercury is though and fucking god dammit, it looks amazing. The Mercury visual stylings supplemented by the Egyptian architecture just is so striking. Instantly excited to explore this space.

Infinite Forest: Really cool concept. Also seems like, from the glimpse we get of the Director, that there is some sort of endgame weekly activity associated with the Infinite Forest too. While they did say it wasn't procedurally generated, it seems like it's instead a collection of a huge variety of pre-fab encounters that will fade in and out Vex-style, leading to some sort of hand-produced randomization. I'm totally down for this. Hopefully, it is a challenging space with good amount of replay value. More importantly, it needs to have its own loot pool... but I'm concerned it won't. I have a hunch for some reason. Still, time will tell and till then, I can't wait to see what's in store here next week.

Heroic Strikes Playlist: Exciting!!!! Until you notice the power level requirement is 270 in the DLC world of max 235 PL and that's... not very high? Almost feels like 280-290 would just seem higher off the bat, though what does PL even mean anyway so whatever. It's nice to have a reason to play strikes now, considering that it also seems there's a weekly milestone for running the heroic strikes playlist too. Doesn't seem like there are modifiers but I can't tell for sure yet, but would be disappointing otherwise. Perhaps the most disappointing thing is that I don't get the sense that there will be exclusive loot to get from the heroic strikes. They didn't mention it and it's still part of the Zavala Vanguard pool of activities. Hopefully we're closer to strike loot at some point soon? But until then, while the heroic strike playlist is a step in the right direction, what am I getting out of it beyond another shot at powerful gear?

Vex Weapons Sidequest: Post game weapon forging to get special Osiris weapons is an awesome idea and the visual indicator on the wall in the Lighthouse is hella cool. I do hope, however, that these weapons aren't a substitute for the location weapons. The wording during the stream made it seem like these were the destination weapons, which makes me wonder what's gonna be in Vance's loot pool. We'll see for sure but tying cool weapon unlocks to an endgame series of quests is a really good idea.

And of course...

Raid Lairs: First, is it immensely disappointing that we won't have a theme specific raid on a theme specific location? Like VoG, CE, KF, WotM? Yes. Mercury looks so amazing and the Vex so cool that I really wish we were doing something that region. That said, there is nothing inherent to the Raid Lair concept that is wrong or bad. Shorter raids based off the main raid? Fits my lifestyle. COMPLETELY new set of encounters and bosses in a COMPLETELY new, unvisited part of the map? Okay, awesome yet. Brand new loot pool? Fuck yes.

For all intents and purposes, Raid Lairs are brand new raids. They just reuse some of the already made environment content. Functionally, brand new. So, it's a little difficult for me to get too mad. Content like Raids take a long time to design and make. Everyone talking about Crota's End and how we've had this precedent needs to remember what a shitshow Crota's End actually was and how, ultimately, it was just so disgustingly disappointing. That's what happens when you rush a Raid. And that's just encounter design. Think about all the work in art and world design that takes time and resources. These things take a lot of work and it seems like, with the expansion of other content in the DLC and Infinite Forest, Bungie made the call to allocate those resources elsewhere while still giving us a raid of some sorts.

I like this decision. While, YES, a Vex lore based raid on Mercury would always be preferable, I also want new exciting Raid content and challenges and this is that. Yes visually, it's gonna look like aspects of the Leviathan (though we don't even know this for sure, nor do we know for a fact that the Cabal are the enemies, they probably are of course) but if in execution, it's all new, no complaints from me.

I get why people are disappointed in the Raid lairs concept. I am too, to some extent, but I can't really stay disappointed seeing that we are still getting, basically, a fresh raid.

Overall, Stream 1 got me really hyped. While I've spent less time on Destiny 2 of late, due to a very bsy schedule, Curse of Osiris Stream 1 has spiked my interest all the way back. This looks like a huge step up in expansion ambition and it feels unique, while still existing in the D2 foundational structure. Excited for next week's activity stream.
 

DrROBschiz

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Oct 25, 2017
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Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
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Just because post release content was a mess and poorly managed in Destiny 1 doesn't mean I should automatically lower my expectations and just be happy with whatever I get in Destiny 2.

Unless these lairs are drastically different, from a visual and mechanial stand point, it just seems ultimately pointless to do all of this stuff on Mercury, with Osiris and the Vex. Instead of being my next, awesome adventure, it just feels like some side task that exists in a vacuum.

They've been teasing Osiris and Mercury for ages. And the culmination of all of this? Going back to the Leviathan for some oddball reason.

With The Red War and Leviathan, Bungie has set a precedent that Raids are no longer the culmination of the story content of any particular content drop. The Leviathan is Cabal themed but it's largely unrelated to Ghaul and his faction. That story was wrapped up within the campaign. The Leviathan itself seems to be a bit of it's own story of Calus testing Guardian's and offering us some "greater power" other than that of The Light. It's very clearly not finished either by the time you beat it given the message announced when you defeat Calus and the fact that the ship is still on course to "eat" Nessus. The storyline with Osiris is something else entirely and will presumably be a self contained campaigned just as The Red War is a self contained campaign.

Separating the campaign from the raids makes sense as now you allow single players and smaller groups playing self contained storylines without "missing out" in the conclusion when they don't play or defeat the raid. The raids likewise become self contained mini-stories that don't conflict with the campaign and can have their own hooks and explanations as to why we're doing them repeatedly.

The prevailing thought is that it will be Hive focused with Oryx's sister (?) being the main villian.

Where is the info on story missions from the first expansion being re-purposed as Strikes coming from?

I believe that came from a Gamespot article where the author seems to have mistaken Strikes as missions whereas they're actually just strikes that the campaign directs you to play. So it's a bit more like the way strikes were integrated in D1 than the way strikes have been integrated in D2 launch.


Edit: Ah ok. I see you found it. PCgamer article rather than Gamespot.
 
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I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,553
Everyone's skepticism is warranted, and should be taken seriously.
That being said, we barely have any details of the things coming in this expansion. A large amount of Quality of Life issues we are all salty about are not the CoO teams duty, that is the Live Team's job, the same guys doing The Dawning.
If you haven't bought the expansion, I would suggest waiting for more info if the current climate has turned you off.

As for the rest of us Destiny shills, we already bought the expansion, so we will play test, and let you know if it was worth the advanced purchase.
I feel like I heard somewhere that the Live team are actually the ones in charge of these two expansions and the "main" team is working on the next TTK style $40 expansion. I'll see if I can find a source for that though. Could have misread that or might have been someone pulling that out of their rear.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
The only problem I have with the expansion's story is not having Saint-14 in it, how do you introduce Osiris without telling us what happened to guy who went looking for him? I hope they are trying not to spoil much from the story missions and he is actually there but there are no indications.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
The only problem I have with the expansion's story is not having Saint-14 in it, how do you introduce Osiris without telling us what happened to guy who went looking for him? I hope they are trying not to spoil much from the story missions and he is actually there but there are no indications.

Why dont you just tell us yourself what happened?!? ;p

I do hope they maintain lore consistency and address it for sure

Details matter even the and especially the small ones
 

TsuWave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,014
As I said previously in this thread, depending on how engaging and complex this raid lair will turn out to be, plus the loot it has on offer, this could turn out to be pretty good. As it stands, I reserve any judgement until the next stream where we hopefully see it fleshed out along with some gameplay of the infinite forest. My only point of contention is people in this thread stating "its a new raid" when bungie themselves don't call it that, I mean it could turn out to be pretty underwhelming.

I'm more interested in the changes to loot/end game anyway. Dresstiny doesn't really cut it for me.
 

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
But... Crota's End was good

maxresdefault.jpg


Was my favorite raid encounter until Gauntlets beat it in Leviathan.

Anyway, I'm disappointed becuase I'd love to see another Vex raid, and I'd especially love to see a Mercury raid because the art design there is incredible, but I'm not opposed to raid lairs as such. I'm hoping we get some non-Cabal enemies and themes, though, the Leviathan's backstory is expansive enough to add those.
 

Buttchin-n-Bones

Actually knows the TOS
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Oct 25, 2017
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See this is a criticism i can get behind. If they were going to do smaller raid content regularly anyways why not stagger the Leviathan expansion and do a Vex Min raid first. Then dole out mini 6 man content every 3-6 months before the main team drops the next Full Raid

This is literally what is happening.

All that being said, I expected to see a brand new Raid. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that or ask for one with each new expansion, (why I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation could be discussed later).

Please, let's discuss. Why don't you think it's unreasonable to expect a raid, which in the past has taken an entire year to develop a quality one, in 3 months?
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,553
Everyone's skepticism is warranted, and should be taken seriously.
That being said, we barely have any details of the things coming in this expansion. A large amount of Quality of Life issues we are all salty about are not the CoO teams duty, that is the Live Team's job, the same guys doing The Dawning.
If you haven't bought the expansion, I would suggest waiting for more info if the current climate has turned you off.

As for the rest of us Destiny shills, we already bought the expansion, so we will play test, and let you know if it was worth the advanced purchase.

I feel like I heard somewhere that the Live team are actually the ones in charge of these two expansions and the "main" team is working on the next TTK style $40 expansion. I'll see if I can find a source for that though. Could have misread that or might have been someone pulling that out of their rear.
Yeah, I can't really find anything to back this up. I think I might have read this from a comment misinterpreting (or reading too much in to) this quote from Bungie: "Right now at Bungie, we've passed the development torch from the people that made Destiny 2 to the people who will sustain it." in reference to the Live team.
 

-PXG-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,186
NJ
With The Red War and Leviathan, Bungie has set a precedent that Raids are no longer the culmination of the story content of any particular content drop. The Leviathan is Cabal themed but it's largely unrelated to Ghaul and his faction. That story was wrapped up within the campaign. The Leviathan itself seems to be a bit of it's own story of Calus testing Guardian's and offering us some "greater power" other than that of The Light. It's very clearly not finished either by the time you beat it given the message announced when you defeat Calus and the fact that the ship is still on course to "eat" Nessus. The storyline with Osiris is something else entirely and will presumably be a self contained campaigned just as The Red War is a self contained campaign.

Separating the campaign from the raids makes sense as now you allow single players and smaller groups playing self contained storylines without "missing out" in the conclusion when they don't play or defeat the raid. The raids likewise become self contained mini-stories that don't conflict with the campaign and can have their own hooks and explanations as to why we're doing them repeatedly.



I believe that came from a Gamespot article where the author seems to have mistaken Strikes as missions whereas they're actually just strikes that the campaign directs you to play. So it's a bit more like the way strikes were integrated in D1 than the way strikes have been integrated in D2 launch.


Edit: Ah ok. I see you found it. PCgamer article rather than Gamespot.

I get all of that. They don't want players feeling like they're missing out. They want players to have a sense of closure and completion, hence why Ghaul wasn't the final boss in the raid.

But that is also a problem. What about the dedicated players who are invested in the lore? Bungie is diminishing the gravity of the situation and sense of importance by not having the raid be tied to the main story. Would Taken King be as epic if the raid had been against some random Fallen adversary? Vex? Cabal? It culminated with this incredible fight against Oryx in his true form, in his throne realm. After finally and truly killing him, plus his daughters and members of his court, you felt like a badass. Ultimately, everything you went through had weight and purpose. So knowing that, going back to Leviathan, after Osiris and Mercury themselves have been teased for so long, cheapens their appeal and makes them seem less important than they should.

Atheon was never interesting because he (it?) was just some random Vex in a cave, deep within Venus. There was no lore build up at all and VoG had nothing to do with the Black Garden or the events in the vanilla campaign. Aksis, not so much either, but you knew the Devil Splicers had some sort of leadership, you just didn't know who until you accepted the raid quest from Shiro. It's a shame Vosik and Aksis didn't get more build up.

Calus is fine and they did manage to make sense out of his arrival and relationship to Ghaul.
 
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Buttchin-n-Bones

Actually knows the TOS
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Oct 25, 2017
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Yeah, I can't really find anything to back this up. I think I might have read this from a comment misinterpreting (or reading too much in to) this quote from Bungie: "Right now at Bungie, we've passed the development torch from the people that made Destiny 2 to the people who will sustain it." in reference to the Live team.

I think it's a reasonable assumption to make. We know the live team made RoI, and we know they've "got the reins" now.

I know. I m saying people wanting the raid content to be Vex themed aren't without merit

You're right, and I feel the same way. I would've liked to see some raid-thing on Mercury.

But the people who are actually mad at Bungie because they set themselves up for disappointment are driving me up the wall. It's a completely shortsighted attitude that entirely eschews the fact that what we're about to get with CoO is leagues better than we got in D1 with either DB or HoW.
 

demi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,858
If the Raid Lair doesnt have the stupid ass Castellum and Underbelly it's already a gigantic improvement over the lazy Leviathan launch raid.
 

DrROBschiz

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Oct 25, 2017
16,494
I think it's a reasonable assumption to make. We know the live team made RoI, and we know they've "got the reins" now.



You're right, and I feel the same way. I would've liked to see some raid-thing on Mercury.

But the people who are actually mad at Bungie because they set themselves up for disappointment are driving me up the wall. It's a completely shortsighted attitude that entirely eschews the fact that what we're about to get with CoO is leagues better than we got in D1 with either DB or HoW.

Oh Totally agree with you and Im legit pumped for the DLC
 

Dave_6

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Oct 25, 2017
1,524
I can't understand people being disappointed at this raid lair stuff. Throughout Destiny 1's lifespan, there were 2 DLCs sold for the same price as these 2 first ones (TDB and HoW), one medium sized DLC (RoI) and one actual big expansion (TTK). The naming scheme (expansions must be huge additions of content blablabla) doesn't matter. Thats what they were.

So far we got info on the first DLC and it is considerably more expansive than what we got for The Dark Below. Do people even remember the pathetic excuse for the "story" in that DLC? Basically 2 recycled story missions? This DLC has been said to have 2-3 hours of story content alone which will not be recycled content AT ALL given that its on a new destination. Also yeah, there is a new destination. Something that was delivered only in the medium sized DLC and actual big expansion in Destiny 1. The Dark Below and House of Wolves had nothing even remotely close to getting a new area and social space to go to like Mercury.

Then people complain that "i don't see how this raid lair is supposed to be a worthy substitute for an ACTUAL NEW RAID" and so people cite the fact that omg The Dark Below had a brand new raid, Crota's End, the raid literally done by a cobbled together team at Bungie in TWO months. The raid that was always made fun of how pathetically glitchy and short it was and one that i even saw comments that they shouldn't have made a raid at all if thats what they were going to deliver back in the day. The entirety of The Dark Below was a mess because of how rushed it was. Bungie had no idea what they were setting themselves up with that DLC promise back then because they were still trying to figure out what Destiny was supposed to be. Remember rexurbishing? Stuff like that happens when no thought is given to figuring out what the fuck they were gonna do with the DLC because they didnt have time to put that thought. They just did stuff.

The fact that they never did a system of DLC like that for the rest of Destiny 1's lifespan is all you need to know that was not working out for Bungie. Because Crota's End is really the only thing people can cite that Destiny 1 delivered "more raids" for less. Because year 2 had one raid for one entire year, King's Fall. And then year 3 once again, had one raid for the entirety of the year, Wrath of the Machine. That was 2 entire years with 2 raids and NOTHING else. No raid lairs, no nothing. That was the system that we had, because Crota's End is not something Bungie wanted to do again and i don't think is something they ended up being all that proud of.

So now with Destiny 2 with this new lair system we would be getting wayyyy more raid content per year than the rate at which Destiny 1 effectively delivered to us in its lifespan and i see people complaining that the old system was better? I just can't see it.

Couldn't have said it better myself igor! Agreed 100%