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Dancrane212

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,962


https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-series-x-auto-hdr-what-works-and-what-doesnt

Note that Auto HDR is also support by the Xbox Series S. The article title refers to it being tested on an Xbox Series X.

One of the greatest strengths of Xbox Series S and X is its backwards compatibility. Revisiting old classics, from the original 2001 Xbox, 360 and the Xbox One - Microsoft has maintained a through line across its console legacy. Not only are legacy titles playable, they're enhanced too with higher resolutions, smoother frame-rates, clearer texture filtering and faster load times. Auto HDR is the latest enhancement, drawing on a machine learning algorithm to add HDR to the majority of its back-compat titles on all Xbox systems. The question is - how good is it? Can it really compare to a native HDR implementation?

There's no question, the quality of Arkham Knight's image is boosted with Auto HDR enabled. I ended up playing for hours like this - and while yes, it's still peaking at 1080p and 30fps on Series X - as was the limit on base Xbox One, the colours have far more pop. Rocksteady's work here is a unique case though. Clearly the game's colour palette helps; having a city set in perpetual night means HDR highlights are easy to define - on sparks from the batmobile, explosions, or shop signs. The aesthetic is consistent across the length of the game, making it easier for an algorithm to work in post.

Regardless of the quality of Auto HDR in gameplay, there are a few nitpicks that need addressing. One small, final one I've seen in a few games: overlays are at times brighter than the gameplay itself - hitting a similar peak white point as logos and text. Super Meat Boy is an example of this issue. As a side note, LG 4K TVs have a similar problem with HUD elements when using a similar mode - called 'HDR effect'. It's comparable to Auto HDR in that it interprets the colour space to make whites hit your screen's peak brightness - and overlays like health bars just don't look quite right. Auto HDR is more refined for games at least, being lag free - but there can be similar issues.

Again, all of this is being tweaked and optimised ahead of launch. From our experience so far though, the Auto HDR option is by no means a one size fits all solution - but when it works, it really works. To get the most from the setting, you'll have to manually decide when to enabled it via the Xbox system options. For the future, perhaps an override option would work best when looking at your game library, to make sure it only switches on select titles. Still - it's a fascinating option to have, filling a gap for games that deserved HDR support on release and adding it convincingly to titles that predate the concept. More than that it's another reason to rediscover the Xbox's best games, bolstered and enhanced on its latest hardware - and we're looking forward to seeing more of the compatibility team's work.
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
My biggest fear is a too-bright HUD causing burn-in on my LG. It's why I appreciate games that allow you to modify the HUD or UI's transparency.
 

aspiring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,545
So it is similar to what LG use already, just lag free. Yeah I will pass. Good option for those that would like it, but not worth it to me.

LG OLEDs have a Logo Luminance Adjustment setting that should help mitigate that issue though. It dims any static imagery on the screen.

I'm sure it does not work in game mode
 

Dermee

Member
Dec 16, 2017
162
Is the LG OLED Logo Luminance Adjustment on the C7? I don't remember seeing that feature anywhere.... or is it later models?
 

aspiring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,545
It does. It's independent of any video settings.

I know what it is I was sure I read that it does not work in game mode:

I just checked and it seems to be some say it does others says it doesn't. Hmmm

EDIT: just even reading AVSforums and some say it works and others say does not work in PC/game mode. Is there a definitive answer from LG anywhere? I'm sure I have it set on my E8, but I always assumed it wasn't doing anything haha
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany
So it is similar to what LG use already, just lag free. Yeah I will pass. Good option for those that would like it, but not worth it to me.


It's extremely impressive what Microsofts Auto HDR does to like 90% of it's games and how amazing it looks, a lot of times even looking as impressive as current games with hdr specifically build for them.
Why would you pass on this? 🤔
 

digitalrelic

Weight Loss Champion 2018: Biggest Change
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,124
So it is similar to what LG use already, just lag free. Yeah I will pass. Good option for those that would like it, but not worth it to me.
It's quite different actually. Unlike LG's solution, it can apply HDR to an image that is 10bit+, whereas a TV will be limited to whatever bit depth that is being output from the device that's connected to it.

Also, Auto HDR on Xbox is actually reviewed by real humans to ensure that it looks as it should.
 

GWX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
547
It definitely does. I can see kick in straight away on the skill/score dial on FH4.

Yup, it definitely does. The problem is that it is not too precise, and can cause some larger than needed dark blotches around the HUD elements, which persist for longer than needed as well.

In the best case scenario MS will enhance the algorithm to avoid HUDs rendering outside the SDR luminance range. Even if I didn't game on OLED, I'd still be annoyed by super bright HUD elements. Light sources such as the sun should be extra bright, not game information.
 

Uhtred

Alt Account
Banned
May 4, 2020
1,340
Would love to see it implemented on PC via AMD's or Nvidia's panel. It looks like they would need to run games through an AI profiler first in order to create the mappings for each game though, right? Or can the GPU API's auto map on the fly with information they would have access to?
 

Kittenz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,159
Minneapolis
Overall pretty positive in their conclusion. I look forward to experimenting with it, as I play a lot of BC even not counting Game Pass.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
This is one of the cooler features I like rather using the TV built in auto HDR you have to toggle on and off.
 

aspiring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,545
It's quite different actually. Unlike LG's solution, it can apply HDR to an image that is 10bit+, whereas a TV will be limited to whatever bit depth that is being output from the device that's connected to it.

Also, Auto HDR on Xbox is actually reviewed by real humans to ensure that it looks as it should.

It that's not true at all, because we have already seen from outlets where the colours are overblown and wrong already. It may be a better solution but that does not mean it looks as it should.

In this article it seems that titles that are darker, or at night seem to pop more than brighter games. Just like my experience trying with the TV version of this, when it works it's great, but when it doesn't it looks trash. I would rather just play the way they were designed creators intent and all that

EDIT: to be clear though, it's great it's there. More options the better for people who would like this. I'm just a sucker for things the way they were meant to be
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,857
Arkham Knight looks way better than I remember it on PS4 Pro. I assume the One X version wasn't massively better as it never got a patch right?
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
It that's not true at all, because we have already seen from outlets where the colours are overblown and wrong already. It may be a better solution but that does not mean it looks as it should.

In this article it seems that titles that are darker, or at night seem to pop more than brighter games. Just like my experience trying with the TV version of this, when it works it's great, but when it doesn't it looks trash. I would rather just play the way they were designed creators intent and all that

When the article says it's 'similar to', they aren't saying you get identical results. They're saying it uses a broadly similar methodology.

Since this is tuned on a per game basis, and there's some hand calibration to optimize games with obvious issues, it's probably worth it to give it a try to see how it compares to what your TV does.
 

digitalrelic

Weight Loss Champion 2018: Biggest Change
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,124
It that's not true at all, because we have already seen from outlets where the colours are overblown and wrong already. It may be a better solution but that does not mean it looks as it should.

In this article it seems that titles that are darker, or at night seem to pop more than brighter games. Just like my experience trying with the TV version of this, when it works it's great, but when it doesn't it looks trash. I would rather just play the way they were designed creators intent and all that

EDIT: to be clear though, it's great it's there. More options the better for people who would like this. I'm just a sucker for things the way they were meant to be
Of course, "as it should" is in the eye of the beholder, as yes, Auto HDR is a visual differentiation from the way the game was originally created. Just like past BC enhancements that took resolutions from sub-720p to Native 4K, added anisotropic filtering, improved draw distances, reduced pop-in, and increased framerates, etc.. also differentiated from the way the game was originally created.

My point is, is it's not just solely relying on AI. There's actual humans reviewing the results to ensure that they look good, and if they don't, the effect is disabled for that title. That of course doesn't mean it's always going to be perfect, but it should definitely mean it will be clearly superior to what's offered on LG TVs.
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany
I have actually zero problems with some UI things or logos being on max brightness like in Super Meat Boy. It looks pretty dope to see these simple logos, mostly 1-3 colors or white on black to see in max brightness.
And in case of boot logos, it's pretty short anyway.
Most games today with native HDR even do that like Assassin's Creed Odyssey and I actually like seeing this right after booting the game so I know it looks properly.
There's nothing worse than popping a brand new HDR game in and you want to get impressed only to see the first menus and logos looking like a blurry, washed out mess. 😅
 

aspiring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,545
Of course, "as it should" is in the eye of the beholder, as yes, Auto HDR is a visual differentiation from the way the game was originally created. Just like past BC enhancements that took resolutions from sub-720p to Native 4K, added anisotropic filtering, improved draw distances, reduced pop-in, and increased framerates, etc.. also differentiated from the way the game was originally created.

My point is, is it's not just solely relying on AI. There's actual humans reviewing the results to ensure that they look good, and if they don't, the effect is disabled for that title. That of course doesn't mean it's always going to be perfect, but it should definitely mean it will be clearly superior to what's offered on LG TVs.

Oh I have no doubt that it will be superior. Hell, the fact it has no input lag puts it above. But I do think changing the way things look is different to a resolution upgrade, and reduced pop in. Sometimes things may be designed with lighting looking a certain way and now would look different changing the look of the game.

As I said I will give a shot and who knows I may be impressed and leave it on. Maybe even on certain games, but I am a stickler for the way it was originally made. And HDR can change the look of things so much.

And again, the option to have there is great.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Neat. Didn't expect from the way Auto HDR was originally pitched that it would be the kind of thing DF actually feels works. Good to see they think it definitely enhances several games they tested.
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,306
NJ
Such an excellent feature to have. Replaying Batman with it looks like a whole new visual experience
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany
It that's not true at all, because we have already seen from outlets where the colours are overblown and wrong already. It may be a better solution but that does not mean it looks as it should.

In this article it seems that titles that are darker, or at night seem to pop more than brighter games. Just like my experience trying with the TV version of this, when it works it's great, but when it doesn't it looks trash. I would rather just play the way they were designed creators intent and all that

EDIT: to be clear though, it's great it's there. More options the better for people who would like this. I'm just a sucker for things the way they were meant to be

Doesn't make any sense to me. Like "things they were meant to be? So are you also deactivating the 4K on OG Xbox and 360 games then? I mean you were never meant to see all the details on characters and on backgrounds.

I would always decide on case to case basis, even with real HDR games. I would actually bet you have as many "real HDR games" that look as wrong and like trash as you have "auto HDR games" looking wrong and a bit trashy.

Just because it's "intended" or "meant to be like this" doesn't mean it can't look like absolute garbage like in Mafia 3 or extremely wrong as in Witcher 3. Just because it's "intended" doesn't make it better or a reason to keep it on.
It's always a case to case thing in my opinion and any other way of deciding this doesn't make sense in my opinion.
 

aspiring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,545
Doesn't make any sense to me. Like things were intended? So are you also deactivating the 4K on OG Xbox and 360 games then? I mean you were never meant to see all the details on characters and in backgrounds.

I would always decide on case to case basis, even with real HDR games. I would actually bet you have as many "real HDR games" that look wrong and like trash as you have "auto HDR games" where it look wrong and a bit trashy.

Just because it's "intended" doesn't mean it can't look like absolute garbage like in Mafia 3 or extremely wrong as in Witcher 3. Just because it's "intended" doesn't make it better or a reason to keep it on.
It's always a case to case thing in my opinion any other way of deciding this doesn't make sense in my opinion.

Pretty sure I said that I may enjoy things on a case by case in my next post

As I said I will give a shot and who knows I may be impressed and leave it on. Maybe even on certain games,

Wow look at that haha
 

aevanhoe

Slayer of the Eternal Voidslurper
Member
Aug 28, 2018
7,332
EDIT: to be clear though, it's great it's there. More options the better for people who would like this. I'm just a sucker for things the way they were meant to be.

Games that don't have HDR don't have it because of the time and resources a developer wasn't willing or able to spend (or because the game is from a time when HDR wasn't a thing) - not because "it was not meant to be". It's not like anyone's artistic vision was "don't have HDR". Same with upscaling or framerate improvements.

Your choice is a matter of personal taste, not something that is "meant to be".
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,861
I'm very interested to play a variety of old games with this feature. It should be interesting to see it become more refined as the gen progresses.

I don't want to hope too much for Arkham Knight to get a Heutchy method resolution boost or a framerate double... or both. Auto hdr looks great here but 900p is still a little rough to look at. Stil an amazing graphical showcase.
 

Nephtes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,552
This section in the article about Dark Souls 2 is concerning:

All of which leads us to what doesn't work. At least for now, Dark Souls 2: Scholar of the First Sin has a few issues with overexposure. The skies of Majula, and especially around Heide's Tower looks so saturated with light that the game can be unpleasant to look at. It's nicely attuned to interlinking caves, darker dungeons and forests at least but in the open areas, Auto HDR creates a blindingly bright effect. Dark Souls 2 also makes clear the limits of interpreting an SDR picture: it doesn't truly add extra detail in bright areas, or darkened spots on the screen. Where an actual HDR picture has the colour depth to mark out the sun in the sky clearly, games like Dark Souls 2 still show less defined gradients. This is an outlier though.

Majula is the best part of that game... and to get ruined by an effect. I don't know. Did they really test every game enough to determine if Auto HDR is an improvement?
 

dmix90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,885
Batman seem to look good with this, but i am not playing if it stays 900p/30 :(

Sunset Overdrive looks like shit, but i remember this was one of the last Xbox One games with crushed blacks on default brightness setting, so maybe this here also affects the result if it was not first adjusted in SDR mode. Also needs a resolution boost...

Same for Mirror's Edge: Catalyst, some things looked overblown and game is also 900p/60 :(

I wonder how they can ignore HUDs in their algorithm... just sample UI colors game by game basis and enter them in some config file ignore section? Otherwise RGB:255 255 255( full white ) and similar blasting at 1000nits in your face is a kinda a dealbreaker sadly. I also hope that overall it looks better on actual console after HGIG calibration run compared to YouTube.
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,500
This section in the article about Dark Souls 2 is concerning:



Majula is the best part of that game... and to get ruined by an effect. I don't know. Did they really test every game enough to determine if Auto HDR is an improvement?

I agree it's concerning. People who really care about maintaining the original artistic intent of these games are going to want finer grained control. It would be nice if Microsoft adds the ability to turn the feature on and off on an individual game basis rather than as a console setting.
 

aspiring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,545
I was still writing my post before you posted that, but ok. 😉

It's definitely worth it to look first, some examples on Youtube, not only in this DF video, look already so impressive and natural that I definitely want to check them out when the SX arrives.

Haha it's all good I was joking around anyway! All good vibes my friend!

There are some games I really want to try because they are games that I absolutely loved and just want to see. Panzer Dragoon, JSR, Shenmue. Games I own that I loved when I was younger that I still play to this day. If it's any improvement on these I would be stoked. But in the flip side, I have played them so much any thing wrong will stick out

I'm not against it, just hesitant.
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany
This section in the article about Dark Souls 2 is concerning:



Majula is the best part of that game... and to get ruined by an effect. I don't know. Did they really test every game enough to determine if Auto HDR is an improvement?


You can see it in the video.

Doesn't look too bad in my opinion, I've seen way worse with "real HDR".

Mentioned a few bad games above but missed another really bad one, Far Cry 5, that one looks horrible, like it's the worst case of auto HDR while it is indeed real hand made HDR (you know what I mean). All menus and hud elements 100% brightness, the whole game is just 100% brightness and just extremely bright everywhere with no differences in anything. Like someone put your TV brightness to 120% and that's it.

So this here:
Where an actual HDR picture has the colour depth to mark out the sun in the sky clearly,

Isn't even the case with real HDR games sometimes.
 
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Gitaroo

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,018
Would have been excited for ac7 if I haven't played it on pc in 4k with TAA and draw distance hack already.