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CreepingFear

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,766
It's kind of an important part to the ending, so I didn't know how they would have pulled it off taking it out.

Just do what WB did with the warning and disclaimer about the history of the period.

U8UZyVI.jpg
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
Kinda hard to remove them entirely given their importance to the ending.

It's kind of an important part to the ending, so I didn't know how they would have pulled it off taking it out.

Just do what WB did with the warning and disclaimer about the history of the period.

U8UZyVI.jpg
Yup, this should be the standard when re-releasing older films with problematic elements.
 

wenis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,138
Good. Don't fuck with old entertainment. Let it stand the way it was intended.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
Kinda hard to remove them entirely given their importance to the ending.


Yup, this should be the standard when re-releasing older films with problematic elements.

Agreed. I especially appreciate how it's called out that the depictions were and are wrong, and that pretending such racism etc never existed is unacceptable. We need to know our shameful history to fight against its resurgence.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,324
It's kind of an important part to the ending, so I didn't know how they would have pulled it off taking it out.

Just do what WB did with the warning and disclaimer about the history of the period.

U8UZyVI.jpg

It's hard for kids to read, much less understand the context of a statement like this.

Not that the crows should be removed, but it's silly to just slap a disclaimer on the front of a cartoon with blatantly racist elements and expect toddlers to understand the context when mommy just wants the TV to babysit little Jimmy for a few hours
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,481
It's hard for kids to read, much less understand the context of a statement like this.

Not that the crows should be removed, but it's silly to just slap a disclaimer on the front of a cartoon with blatantly racist elements and expect toddlers to understand the context when mommy just wants the TV to babysit little Jimmy for a few hours
Ok, but that's more of a problem with mommy than the service. If mommy is allowing media to babysit her children, there is a lot more to worry about than the crows.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,317
It's hard for kids to read, much less understand the context of a statement like this.

Not that the crows should be removed, but it's silly to just slap a disclaimer on the front of a cartoon with blatantly racist elements and expect toddlers to understand the context when mommy just wants the TV to babysit little Jimmy for a few hours

Then the parents should show other programming until they feel they can properly inform their child of what's happening.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,635
You either keep the crows, or you don't put Dumbo on the service. There's no feasible middle ground.

Personally, I wouldn't have included it, but Disney put out a remake of the movie this year- they can't realistically start decrying it without looking like the biggest of hypocrites.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Kind of hard to remove them given how prominent they are in the movie.

I don't think we'll be seeing them remove the Indians from Peter Pan, the Siamese cats from Lady & The Tramp, the Chinese cat from The Aristocats, etc.

They're products of their unfortunate time.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
It's hard for kids to read, much less understand the context of a statement like this.

Not that the crows should be removed, but it's silly to just slap a disclaimer on the front of a cartoon with blatantly racist elements and expect toddlers to understand the context when mommy just wants the TV to babysit little Jimmy for a few hours
Ideally <<<<parent>>>> will have a conversation with little Jimmy about this, but everyone (everyone) knows that's not going to happen.

My actual preference would be for Disney to just not include the movie on their streaming service at all. Along with Peter Pan, racist POS movie. They don't need to be banished to the vault forever or anything, they can still release them in enough quantities that the people who really want them can have them (same with Song of the South), but I'm not a fan of Disney readily celebrating such toxic aspects of their legacy. The extent to which they still have value should be historical and academic.
 
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BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
The idea that you should just throw a disclaimer up while continuing to profit off the bigoted product is such a milquetoast moderate solution.
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
The idea that you should just throw a disclaimer up while continuing to profit off the bigoted product is such a milquetoast moderate solution.
If that's true then how do we go about preserving problematic works of art like this? I don't think the film itself can enter public domain.

Confederate monuments are public works, hence why it makes sense to move them to a museum. This film on the other hand is owned by Disney, a private corporation.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
If that's true then how do we go about preserving problematic works of art like this? I don't think the film itself can enter public domain.

Put it in a vault somewhere and now it's preserved. Not all art product needs to be readily available for public purchase and consumption.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
They will probably put something before it
On the old Disney cartoon collections from the 2000's, Leonard Maltin would present with disclaimers like this. If only the Justin Trudeau's of the world watched this.

(Link removed)

(JFC....I'm taking that down due to the unfortunate YouTube thumbnsil used for it

Just go on YouTube and search Leonard Maltin, Mickey, Blackface to see the Disney approved Warning back then.)

Essentially "we could lock it up but parents should use this as a lesson for teaching children why it's wrong then and how far we come, unless you live in Canada"
 
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Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
Put it in a vault somewhere and now it's preserved. Not all art product needs to be readily available for public purchase and consumption.
I would argue that for educational purposes it does. Especially if the goal is to use works like this to educate future generations on the folly/cruelty of the racism it depicts. Images and sound have meaning and they make a hell of a larger emotional impact when they can be viewed by the public instead of described in words by some secondhand source. Locking something copyrighted in a vault effectively eliminates our opportunity to use it in the future as a tool for teaching.

I'm not defending Disney profiting from it, I'm just saying that there should be a better way of handling this that doesn't involve short sighted solutions like locking it away in some vault.

It's not just their colouration- it's the dialogue, the mannerisms, the names, everything.

Change the colour, then they're obvious stereotypes coloured blue- they don't stop being obvious stereotypes.

Ahh yes, the "Mr. Popo effect"...
 

SliceSabre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,556
I'm totally ok with how I think Warner Brothers, I forget which company, does which was putting that warning in there but keeping them as the original.

Don't wash racist things away from old media as though it didn't happen, that is entirely dishonest.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
I would argue that for educational purposes it does. Especially if the goal is to use works like this to educate future generations on the folly/cruelty of the racism it depicts. Images and sound have meaning and they make a hell of a larger emotional impact when they can be viewed by the public instead of described in words by some secondhand source. Locking something copyrighted in a vault effectively eliminates our opportunity to use it in the future as a tool for teaching.

I'm not defending Disney profiting from it, I'm just saying that there should be a better way of handling this that doesn't involve short sighted solutions like locking it away in some vault.

This is incredibly naive. There is no "educational" value to racist imagery from decades ago. There is no racist on the planet who is going to somehow become educated on racism by being shown a cartoon bird in a 1950s Disney film.

This sort of thing is exactly how white supremacy perpetuates itself: throw the past under the bus, pretend it's not still happening today. "Aren't you happy we've progressed so far from the time of Dumbo?"
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,749
Agreed. I especially appreciate how it's called out that the depictions were and are wrong, and that pretending such racism etc never existed is unacceptable. We need to know our shameful history to fight against its resurgence.

This comes off extremely disingenuous. You want to uphold harmful imagery under the pretense of being shamed by it, as if the people are "shamed" by our history when they are in fact mostly very prideful about racism and think people should "get over it" and "too sensitive"

Most people don't care and you want to pretend they're ashamed; they're not at all ashamed
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,988
It's kind of an important part to the ending, so I didn't know how they would have pulled it off taking it out.

Just do what WB did with the warning and disclaimer about the history of the period.

U8UZyVI.jpg
Nah, people need to stop acting like this WB thing is worth imitating, rather than something that needs to be heavily improved on. It doesn't go nearly far enough in explaining what the material is or why its harmful and actually cops out of the larger discussion.
 

Heraldic

Prophet of Regret
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,634
this is so disingenuous. eyeroll.gif
that or you really can't tell the difference between the 2 and you're a lost cause

I disagree. I edited my post to simply state that this feels hypocritical, and to not sound so satirical.
But, I think your being disingenuous. Either it is racist, or it isn't. So which is it?

If it is tinged with racism, and they are profiting off of it, then is that acceptable? Or do we not allow this as a society. But several posters are stating that slapping a warning on the material suffices. Does it?

There are many relics from our past that are representative of a bygone era steeped in racism. How do we handle it. And if a warning label does suffice, then I simply am posing the question of if that would be acceptable for many of the confederate monuments, and materials. Which is fitting considering the Disney movie Song of the South. Which Disney may well add to their service.
 
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Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,446
Nah, people need to stop acting like this WB thing is worth imitating, rather than something that needs to be heavily improved on. It doesn't go nearly far enough in explaining what the material is or why its harmful and actually cops out of the larger discussion.
What would you propose they do to the film itself to NOT cop out of the larger discussion before the film actually plays?
 

Deleted member 1086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,796
Boise Area, Idaho
The thing with the Warner disclaimer is they put that in front of cartoons that featured short instances of racial jokes, or like the Speedy Gonzales cartoons which are both hotly debated regarding their content and loved by much of the viewing audience. But even Warner has at least eleven cartoons that you will likely never see officially distributed again(despite the fact that about a decade ago they spent money to restore the cartoons). This list, colloquially known as The Censored Eleven, has famously been withheld from distribution since 1968. Beyond that there are several other cartoons in their catalogue such as "Confederate Honey" that have rarely been seen in the last few decades due to racial content. Hell most Warner cartoons prior to the mid 40s are rarely shown on television any more. Their worst racial content that not even a disclaimer can save is literally locked up in a vault somewhere.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,446
I disagree. I edited my post to simply state that this feels hypocritical, and to not sound so satirical.
But, I think your being disingenuous. Either it is racist, or it isn't. So which is it?

If it is tinged with racism, and they are profiting off of it, then is that acceptable? Or do we not allow this as a society. But several posters are stating that slapping a warning on the material suffices. Does it?

There are many relics from our past that are representative of a bygone era steeped in racism. How do we handle it. And if a warning label does suffice, then I simply am pose the question of if that would be acceptable for many of the confederate monuments, and materials. Which is fitting considering the Disney movie Song of the South. Which Disney may well add to their service.
I think the simple answer here is there's no problem sticking those items and monuments in a museum and charging entry for it.
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
This is incredibly naive. There is no "educational" value to racist imagery from decades ago. There is no racist on the planet who is going to somehow become educated on racism by being shown a cartoon bird in a 1950s Disney film.

This sort of thing is exactly how white supremacy perpetuates itself: throw the past under the bus, pretend it's not still happening today. "Aren't you happy we've progressed so far from the time of Dumbo?"
I'd love to hear your position on the existence of Holocaust museums and other public displays of historically troubling materials. Should those not exist either because present day Neo-Nazis aren't magically cured of their racism by taking a tour of a Holocaust museum? I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Are you not "throwing the past under the bus" yourself by arguing that this should be locked in a vault and deny future generations from being able to view it? Viewing horrifically racist and offensive caricatures of disadvantaged populations was absolutely crucial to my history education when I was growing up. The existence of those materials might not steer stubborn racists away from their preconceived views (nothing will) but it provides the next generation with a clear picture of what our society has done wrong and why we need to actively repel their remnants today.

Nah, people need to stop acting like this WB thing is worth imitating, rather than something that needs to be heavily improved on. It doesn't go nearly far enough in explaining what the material is or why its harmful and actually cops out of the larger discussion.
Could you elaborate as to how you think they should improve their disclaimer? How can they succinctly touch upon the "larger discussion".