I mean, don't get me wrong, Abby's not blameless here either. She could have let the events in SLC bring the 8 of them together and they could have forged a stronger bond through that, but consensus was splintered and it wasn't just Abby that wanted Joel dead either. Some people had a higher price to pay for following through on it than others, and Abby lost herself in it.Oh damn I missed that entirely. I genuinely thought it was just Owen, Mel, and Abby who were supposed to leave.
I mean given the circumstances, the fact that there was clearly something going on between Abby and Mel, I could see why she was so hostile. And why she wouldn't willingly go to an island that no one's ever made it back from. Including the main forces of the WLF during that same day.
She does make it known during their mission together that the experience made her deeply uncomfortable. She doesn't state outright that she thinks Abby is a POS but she doesn't approach the subject on friendly terms either.I mean, don't get me wrong, Abby's not blameless here either. She could have let the events in SLC bring the 8 of them together and they could have forged a stronger bond through that, but consensus was splintered and it wasn't just Abby that wanted Joel dead either. Some people had a higher price to pay for following through on it than others, and Abby lost herself in it.
It's implied that she used interrogating and torturing Seraphites as a way of preparing for killing Joel, so if my friend was doing that, I'd wouldn't be all sunshine and rainbows with them. I wouldn't keep it inside to knock that friend down when they were at their weakest, though.
Yup. I actually always thought it was somewhat weird how Mel is framed as being mostly this big sweetheart girl, but she is totally on board with executing Ellie and Tommy once they were finished with Joel, particularly if Joel's death was as brutal for her as she says it was. It felt incongruous if she is meant to be the big good of the group.Oh damn I missed that entirely. I genuinely thought it was just Owen, Mel, and Abby who were supposed to leave.
They will change the characters so they look like the HBO show's actors
The pivotal moment at the end was that Ellie realised she wouldn't get closure by killing Abby.Was a surprise as l wanted to batter Abby to death. The closure wasn't there. A selection of golf clubs would be cool.
I hope if ND makes some scifi game its full of even more storylines and complexity cuz i love watching the fights XDTLoU2 threads are fascinating. The interpretations and passion to argue ones point are unlike any other I've seen for a game. It's very clear Neil succeeded in making a game the industry will not forgot about for a long time.
Well, sure, but she also had 4 years to speak up if she had that much of a problem with it. She was one of the people that wanted to go after Joel originally (as heard on the tape Ellie finds), knowing the full implications of what might happen. She knew the kind of person Abby was, and came on board anyways, but it wasn't until Abby was at her weakest, and Mel was personally inconvenienced that she choses to (finally) speak up?She does make it known during their mission together that the experience made her deeply uncomfortable. She doesn't state outright that she thinks Abby is a POS but she doesn't approach the subject on friendly terms either.
That just doesnt work for me, especially after she kills an army right before getting to Abby. I think this ending couldve worked if it was just presented differently, but as someone playing the game and getting thru all of that end section, only to not have Abby die felt lame to me. As much as this is about Ellie, it's also about the player who is playing the game, and putting the player through all of that and having Ellie change her mind just felt unsatisfying to me.The pivotal moment at the end was that Ellie realised she wouldn't get closure by killing Abby.
None of the other Salt Lake 8 were defecting, but Owen and Mel were supposed to meet up with a group of WLF soldiers at the FOB, the six of them would then move on to the safe house that Ellie walks in on (you find a letter addressed to her). This is the group of people that were defecting, and that's why Mel acts so jittery about where Owen is on her Day 1.
Owen went AWOL, and this messed up her plans. So then she tracks down Owen at the aquarium, and Abby arrives with the Seraphite kids. That's another delay - because now Abby has to go on a cross town venture to forage supplies from the hospital and that's another day Mel is stuck in Seattle, only now she has to perform surgery on this girl instead of helping fix up the boat. If Mel refuses, this makes her the bad guy.
I also mentioned I was being somewhat deliberately uncharitable, but she's clearly not the communicative type and will throw people under the bus to save herself at the very least. She did it to Ellie, and she was ready to do it to Abby too, justifying to herself that she was probably dead to reconcile that she's about to sell out one of the people that very well might have kept her alive all these years, "how many times has Abby risked her life for you".
At least Abby was *openly* a piece of shit. A lot of Mel's problems could have been solved by actually talking to the people in her life and she didn't.
It really paints her apprenticeship with Abby's dad in a new light. One of the things you have in your pack as Baby Abby is Mel's letter to her thanking her for getting her into an apprenticeship with her dad. It doesn't necessarily mean she was manipulative about it, but apparently her getting that position was atleast partially cronyism. This implies that Mel has stuck around with Abby even as far back as children atleast partially out of a desire to get stuff out of her. Which isn't to say that their relationship before this was necessarily entirely fake by any means, but a lot of re-evaluation has to be done around mel if we don't assume she's the goodie two shoes that her status (being both a healer and pregnant) implied about her. I feel we were set on this interpretation because that's how Manny introduced her to us, "She's a medic, she doesn't view this as grunts like us" and we never questioned it because her being an expecting mother and a doctor fits that archtype, but its another way that that might not be true.Well, sure, but she also had 4 years to speak up if she had that much of a problem with it. She was one of the people that wanted to go after Joel originally (as heard on the tape Ellie finds), knowing the full implications of what might happen. She knew the kind of person Abby was, and came on board anyways, but it wasn't until Abby was at her weakest, and Mel was personally inconvenienced that she choses to (finally) speak up?
At the very least, she has a horrible sense of timing. At worst, she's as conniving and vindictive as she paints Abby as being.
About that...I think there are a few details about Mel you're omitting.
First, one of the big factor playing into the whole situation is that the father of her soon to be born child just hasn't talked to her in weeks without much of an explanation. Just think about what kind of message it sends her, and in what kind of jeopardy it puts her. Think of the stress.
Second, she's very aware that Owen still has strong feelings for Abby. In the context, think about how she must feel. And while she wanted Joel dead as much as anybody from the group, she attributes the traumatic nature of the trip to Jackson directly to Abby. In her head, she's the main reason they all had to go through this.
Mel "doesn't throw people under to bus to save herself". In the confrontation with Ellie she was ready to give up Abby, a person she sees as being the cause of many of her current problems, and a person she grew to hate for obvious reasons.
And it's kind of difficult to actually talk to the people in your life when the people you need to talk to are doing their best to avoid you, isn't it?
I think she was onboard until the moment actually came and it was way more prolonged and brutal than she was actually expecting. She wanted it but not that way. Abby could've ended it way quicker than she chose to. Mel was no stranger to death at that point but this was some other shit:Well, sure, but she also had 4 years to speak up if she had that much of a problem with it. She was one of the people that wanted to go after Joel originally (as heard on the tape Ellie finds), knowing the full implications of what might happen. She knew the kind of person Abby was, and came on board anyways, but it wasn't until Abby was at her weakest, and Mel was personally inconvenienced that she choses to (finally) speak up?
At the very least, she has a horrible sense of timing. At worst, she's as conniving and vindictive as she paints Abby as being.
Id like this if we could explore the cult better, but I still really want to play as Joel right after the outbreak. It'd be nice to see ND pull that off, especially as the human enemies would be a lot deadlier and there would be absolute chaos with society falling apart.Gimme a Left Behind size story with Yara and Lev before they meet Abby pls. Seeing their escape from the village and what goes down with their mom would be intense.
The thing is though, the game actively dissects both positions. People just take Joel dying horrible as the game taking a stance against his choice when that's not even remotely true.If you thought Joel did the right thing at the end of the first game, and cannot emphasize with the firefly position, it seems those people hate the second game as it makes it very hard to emphasize with Abby. Making half of it a slog.
If you thought he was a piece of shit for dooming the human race for one person and slaughtering a hospital full of people, even if you understand why he did, (like I did) then you absolutely emphasize with Abby and enjoy seeing the other perspective.
Absolutely. But she also knew the kind of person that Abby was, and that Abby wasn't the kind of person to just get things over with with a quick bullet to the head. Mel and Owen actually had to leave the room because Abby took it father than they could have ever imagined, and one can't blame them for that, but there had to be some part of her that knew that was the trip she packed for. Abby was an uncontrollably monster over the last few years, this wouldn't have changed when she came face to face with the man that ruined everything for her.I think she was onboard until the moment actually came and it was way more prolonged and brutal than she was actually expecting. She wanted it but not that way. Abby could've ended it way quicker than she chose to. Mel was no stranger to death at that point but this was some other shit:
It doesn't necessarily mean she was manipulative about it, but apparently her getting that position was atleast partially cronyism. This implies that Mel has stuck around with Abby even as far back as children atleast partially out of a desire to get stuff out of her.
About that...
"Everyone's on board, Mel included"
Perfect chance for Mel to just say "no thanks, leave me out of it", and wash her hands of Abby for good, and if Owen choses to follow Abby, she also has her answer about him. Wouldn't surprise me if she waited and kept her pregnancy from him, as well - Owen didn't even know Mel was pregnant until they'd reached the outskirts of Jackson, so it's not like Owen knowing Mel is pregnant would be a factor in Owen leaving or staying to be with her.
The fact that she was ready to kill Ellie and Tommy means that yes, she will throw people under the bus to save her own skin, even as Owen's saying "we're here for him, and that's it". She justifies selling Abby out by saying "she's probably dead anyways". She needs a clean conscience if she's going to kill someone, but she's perfectly willing to do it. "You'll miss fucking up Scars with us..."
That just doesnt work for me, especially after she kills an army right before getting to Abby. I think this ending couldve worked if it was just presented differently, but as someone playing the game and getting thru all of that end section, only to not have Abby die felt lame to me. As much as this is about Ellie, it's also about the player who is playing the game, and putting the player through all of that and having Ellie change her mind just felt unsatisfying to me.
I find the entire ending chapter too ridiculous and over the top. Whereas most of the game is you trying to survive, the ending just feels like a super soldier murder mission that doesnt follow through with the goal. The body count Ellie leaves behind only to peace out at the end felt frustrating to me.
If you think Joel did the right thing, it shows how badly his lying to Ellie messed with her and messed up their relationship for a good number of years,
The thing is though, the game actively dissects both positions. People just take Joel dying horrible as the game taking a stance against his choice when that's not even remotely true.
This is one of my biggest problems with TLOU2. Ellie not being in on it and acting like it was some huge revelation that broke her relationship with Joel in TLOU2 is a complete retcon of the ending of the first game.
She wanted to go. It's how it went down that ended up causing a trauma, and it marks the beginning of the schism between these three. When leaving for Jackson, everything seems to indicate that the relationship between Mel-Owen-Abby was good.
Which one of these statements is true?When leaving for Jackson, everything seems to indicate that the relationship between Mel-Owen-Abby was good.
Because Abby has been a force of chaos and confusion and upset for the last 4 years, which Mel understandably wouldn't want a part in. My point is though, that Mel waits far too long to say something, and waits until she can actually hurt Abby to do it. All because she sees herself as inconvenienced by Abby, even when Owen wanted to bring her along. Owen finally had enough of it and told Mel to go back if she feels that strongly about it, because he also saw the Abby that's probably saved Mel's ass on a number of occasions. Something that does not seem to factor into Mel's decision at all, and instead she's laser focused on knocking Abby down a peg.And she says "she's probably dead anyways" to Owen. To convince him somewhat. She really doesn't want to die for her sake (oops), and she really just want Abby out of their lives.
Wait. What? How? She makes him swear on their friend's lives that he wasn't lying to her, and even if she doesn't believe it (I think she's willing to give him the benefit of the doubt), finding out that he kept lying to her all those years was still going to have a negative effect on her. He was the one person in her life that was never supposed to lie to her, and now she didn't even have that.This is one of my biggest problems with TLOU2. Ellie not being in on it and acting like it was some huge revelation that broke her relationship with Joel in TLOU2 is a complete retcon of the ending of the first game.
what are you talking about? she didn't know what he did at the end of TLOU1
right, but i think the way the ending is presented, it just feels dumb. I dont know how else they couldve done it, but the game does way too much in terms of coinciding events to move the plot, that by the end I found it way too over the top. I also have no idea why Abbie lets Ellie live, and find it extremely hard to believe that in a world like this, Abbie especially would choose to live looking over her shoulder.What you feel is intended, because it's very similar to what Ellie is feeling, the fact she went through all this effort, killed all these people, abandoned Dina and the baby. It is supposed to unsatisfactory and it is meant to induce the player to ruminate and reflect on what just happened.
You are right Ellie's motivation to go is ultimately misguided, it was an attempt to address her PTSD that she lives with because of what happened to Joel in Jackson and what she did in Seattle. Also to address her survivors guilt because of what Joel did to the Fireflies and the fact that a vaccine wasn't developed. She is living with all this weight everyday and it is unbearable which is why she makes this desperate but ultimately misguided attempt at addressing it., and she realises it at the very end, which is why she doesn't kill Abby.
When Joel tells her that there are other people who are immune, and they've stopped looking for a cure, and she makes him swear to her that that's the truth... She can tell he's lying. He can tell that she doesn't believe him. They both accept that and move on, because of the relationship they built over the course of the game, which is stronger and more important to each of them than the greater good.
Maybe those feelings festered over the years. Maybe the guilt grew. Maybe the blame grew. I would have bought those emotions boiling to the surface and exploding. But it suddenly being some shock revelation to Ellie in TLOU2 is a retcon.
right, but i think the way the ending is presented, it just feels dumb. I dont know how else they couldve done it, but the game does way too much in terms of coinciding events to move the plot, that by the end I found it way too over the top. I also have no idea why Abbie lets Ellie live, and find it extremely hard to believe that in a world like this, Abbie especially would choose to live looking over her shoulder.
u could say liv changed her, but liv doesnt feel consequential enough to me to allow abbie to spare ellie.
I'll agree that the first game's ending set up their relationship for conflict. You can't expect the weight of accepting that lie to fully hit her in that moment. But she did know it was a lie from the beginning.
no it is not lmfao.
she suspects that he's lying but decides to try and move on. however, as TLOU2 flashbacks show, the truth of joel's actions kept coming up in various ways.
in fact, the nature of their world pretty much made it impossible for her not to have doubts eating away at her because Jackson deals with infected so regularly and the main reason the apocalypse happened was because of the outbreak. combine that with the nature of ellie's patrol job that dealt with clearing infected and yeah it makes sense why she would eventually seek out the truth herself instead of accepting joel's lies and gaslighting.
i mean, she literally pokes holes in the story he told her while they stand over the bodies of two jackson residents who committed suicide after getting infected. it's even implied by joel that this isn't the first time they've had that argument.
of all the tlou2 criticisms, this one never made any sense to me. nothing about tlou1's ending implies that this is a relationship that will 1) be healthy and 2) actually last. she tried to live with his lie and, predictably, it didn't work.
Eh, it's not so much that I believe Mel was this sinister figure plotting from behind the shadows. It's just that if we know that Mel is atleast a little duplicitous in the present, it casts doubt on her past as well. That's why friendship betrayals suck so much, they retroactively shake the foundations of the past as well.I really don't see it. They were friends in a small community. There is nothing indicating otherwise.
I'll agree that the first game's ending set up their relationship for conflict. You can't expect the weight of accepting that lie to fully hit her in that moment. But she did know it was a lie from the beginning.
So then why did she make him swear to it at all. If Ellie was as okay with it as you think she was (she was clearly stressed about it).When Joel tells her that there are other people who are immune, and they've stopped looking for a cure, and she makes him swear to her that that's the truth... She can tell he's lying. He can tell that she doesn't believe him. They both accept that in that moment and move on [. . .]
Yeah, I just can't say I bought into any of that. At the end of the day, people like Abbie keep killing and sparing Ellie of all people isn't something that I think is something she would do just because they hamfisted this relationship with Lev into the game. I liked the sections with Lev, I just thing when you weigh in killing Ellie vs this sudden newfound sense of purpose, it doesnt make sense for a super soldier like Abbie to let Ellie goAbby was going through her own redemption arc. Her insatiable lust for revenge basically cost her everything, her nightmares never disappeared nor did she find peace, and I think she realised Ellie was basically her pre-Joel murder.
It's why she went back for Yara and Lev in the first place, going against everything she knew, and the WLF who she'd essentially devoted her life to.
Through Lev and Yara she basically found herself again and realised how all the rest of the bullshit was just a fruitless cycle of shit, that she needed to be rid and free of.
It was also Lev who was the voice of reason who stopped her from killing Dina, and presumably Ellie too. That grounding force and point or window to redemption and understanding, that had essentially changed her worldview and character.
I don't like this take because it implies that empathy is dolled on on the basis of you liking Joel alone. I like Joel fine and if it were me in his position, it's more than possible I'd have made the same choice (though probably for different reasons and in different ways), and I empathize with Abby a lot. Joel's great, but Abby is her own person and it's up to the player to take her on her own terms. If you are someone who judged her on "What would Joel do" logic, then I feel that's a failure to engage with the story on it's own terms.If you thought Joel did the right thing at the end of the first game, and cannot emphasize with the firefly position, it seems those people hate the second game as it makes it very hard to emphasize with Abby. Making half of it a slog.
If you thought he was a piece of shit for dooming the human race for one person and slaughtering a hospital full of people, even if you understand why he did, (like I did) then you absolutely emphasize with Abby and enjoy seeing the other perspective.
Because Abby has been a force of chaos and confusion and upset for the last 4 years, which Mel understandably wouldn't want a part in. My point is though, that Mel waits far too long to say something, and waits until she can actually hurt Abby to do it.
All because she sees herself as inconvenienced by Abby, even when Owen wanted to bring her along. Owen finally had enough of it and told Mel to go back if she feels that strongly about it, because he also saw the Abby that's probably saved Mel's ass on a number of occasions. Something that does not seem to factor into Mel's decision at all, and instead she's laser focused on knocking Abby down a peg.
Yeah, I just can't say I bought into any of that. At the end of the day, people like Abbie keep killing and sparing Ellie of all people isn't something that I think is something she would do just because they hamfisted this relationship with Lev into the game. I liked the sections with Lev, I just thing when you weigh in killing Ellie vs this sudden newfound sense of purpose, it doesnt make sense for a super soldier like Abbie to let Ellie go
And that's really my problem with a lot of the game: they give us all these evil people to constantly kill, humanize some of them with personal names, and in the end, these characters, in this world, are so strongly moved to spare one another. This is despite losing a shit ton of people who they cared for. You can say they want to see the light, but that's just not the kind of world they live in. Realistically, if you were to imagine their lives going forward, peace isnt an option
How much Ellie knows at which point in time has been a bugbear for my reading of the story for a while. My interpretation is that as a kid, she doubted heavily, but believed him out of trust and faith as her close friend and familial figure. At 15, she still trusted him, but the firefly she found in the museum reminded her of how she doubts him. At 16, during the Hotel, she tried to confront Joel and get him to tell her the truth, but she wasn't sure what it is. She knows somethings up, but is torn between still trusting him.So then why did she make him swear to it at all. If Ellie was as okay with it as you think she was (she was clearly stressed about it).
She doesn't have that moment of penance on top of that cliff for no reason. She needs Joel to look her in the eye and say that all the people she lost, weren't lost for nothing. Joel, being the one person that's never once lied to her, says "I swear", and she says okay. I think she suspects something happened, but she did not play the game with us. She has no idea what happened between falling off that bus and into the rapids, and when she wakes up in the back of a truck that Joel is driving.
This also leaves out that a vast majority of the discourse surrounding the ending back when it came out, and again, when Part II was unveiled, is whether Ellie believed her or not, and what implications that had for a follow up game. People just naturally assumed their relationship would be splintered by that somehow, because that's the only course that could have followed. We just didn't know that Joel would continue lying to her for years even when she gave him the chance to come clean about things.
"Then we come to that ending and that lie and that okay and what does that okay mean? It's definitely not a complacent 'yea I'll go along with you', in fact, it's the opposite. It's Ellie waking up for the first time, waking up and realizing she can't rely on him anymore. While she loves him for what he's done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to leave him and make her own decisions and mistakes."
Druckmann: I remember the fear of how much people loved the ending of the first game because of how ambiguous it is. For years people have been debating "Does Ellie know Joel is lying to him? Does she not know? Does she know he's lying but she's willing to let it go because of how much she loves him?" And it turns out that it's kind of all of those things. We wanted with each flashback to show that at first Ellie's in denial about it, and then it's this thing that's hanging over her relationship with Joel, and then she's starting to suspect something, and then she thinks she thought she could let go but she can't and it's eating away at her until finally it blows up.
Each step of the way, we wanted you to think that Ellie's relationship with Joel ended on a different note. You think "Joel died thinking Ellie hates him!" and then at the very end of the game we reveal something different with that last beat. Structuring those flashbacks was a process. Initially, they were all over the place, out of order, and so much of the writing work that Halley was really good at was untangling all of that and simplifying it.
The "enemy" are literally two children who are hardly hostile.Why doesn't it make sense?
It makes sense to you that she would abandon the WLF to save the very enemy she'd devoted her life to killing, but not spare the girl who's father she'd brutally murdered infront of her, and who was essentially a spitting mirror image of her own downward spiral of death and destruction in her journey to avenge her own father?
The WLF vs Seraohites, Lev and Yara, Abby and Ellie, they all interlink and are analogies of one another, and if Abby could see the destructive pointlessness of all the other conflicts and seek redemption in her own way through Lev, there's no reason she couldn't see it in Ellie either, thus letting her go.
I'm saying, there was a 4 year stretch where Mel and Owen watched Abby turn into the person she is, to the point where it splintered Abby and Owen's relationship, and that Mel didn't once take the opportunity to speak up about it. You said that it's "kind of hard to speak up to the person that's been avoiding you". Clarity is important here. So, which one is it? Was their relationship hunky dory up until the trip to Jackson, or had Abby been avoiding Mel (for some reason) for those 4 years? So make up your mind here.What do you mean? They leave for Jackson, relationship between these three is alright. The come back from Jackson, relationship is really not alright.
You realized I addressed this right?You realize that Mel is around 7 months pregnant with Owen's child, right? It's not like she's just that awkward friend that wants to tag along for the trip. He has responsibilities toward her. Owen telling her to go back is a moment in the game that gives me goose bumps every time I play it. It's by far the most egocentric and cowardly thing from the whole game.
I don't disagree with you, but when people talk about it in these metaphorical terms, of "seeing the light" or "seeking redemption", I feel it dehumanizes the journey for them.Why doesn't it make sense?
It makes sense to you that she would abandon the WLF to save the very enemy she'd devoted her life to killing, but not spare the girl who's father she'd brutally murdered infront of her, and who was essentially a spitting mirror image of her own downward spiral of death and destruction in her journey to avenge her own father?
The WLF vs Seraohites, Lev and Yara, Abby and Ellie, they all interlink and are analogies of one another, and if Abby could see the destructive pointlessness of all the other conflicts and seek redemption in her own way through Lev, there's no reason she couldn't see it in Ellie either, thus letting her go.