Do you have a heat pump to heat your home?

  • Yes

    Votes: 106 34.2%
  • No

    Votes: 164 52.9%
  • I live in a warm area year round, sucker.

    Votes: 28 9.0%
  • Why is the poll question the same as the thread title?

    Votes: 12 3.9%

  • Total voters
    310

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,601
The issue is that the efficiency of a heat pump goes down the higher the temperature it needs to generate.
Modern houses tend to have underfloor heating, which requires only _rather warm_ water, as opposed to radiators which require _scalding hot_ water to properly heat up a room.

Badly insulated buildings make this effect even worse.
Properly sized radiators do not need to be scalding hot, that's the problem. In the UK people used to run their boiler at like 80c and burn their arse on a radiator getting into the bath. A larger radiator can run at much lower temps which is not only better for a condensing boiler but also for a heat pump. Even a high

The problem is that for so long boilers have been massively oversized and radiators have not been calculated properly, just banged in for what looks about right.
 

TheOMan

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,176
No, unfortunately not. I live in a climate where it gets down to -40C for some of the year (western Canada), and current heat pumps are unable to keep up. We have a high-efficiency natural gas furnace as well as an air conditioner for summer (it also gets +30C). Hopefully the tech continues to improve and we can one day move to heat pumps in my area.

Haha - sounds like you're in Manitoba.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,299
Properly sized radiators do not need to be scalding hot, that's the problem. In the UK people used to run their boiler at like 80c and burn their arse on a radiator getting into the bath. A larger radiator can run at much lower temps which is not only better for a condensing boiler but also for a heat pump. Even a high

The problem is that for so long boilers have been massively oversized and radiators have not been calculated properly, just banged in for what looks about right.

Still. Radiators need like what … 65° while floor heating needs like 45°?
Huge difference in efficiency.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,939
I wish.
I've thought about getting a mini-split to provide suplemental cooling and heating for my living room, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,601
Still. Radiators need like what … 65° while floor heating needs like 45°?
Huge difference in efficiency.
Floor systems should ideally be running at about 35c flow temps, but if the floor area is not sufficient for the volume of the room and it's insulation then higher temps will be needed. The two we have on site are run at 35c for 8 months of the year (could almost certainly go lower) and bumped to 40c in the winter as it's needed to maintain the temperatures we have set in the rooms.

My old house was a 1950s semi with filled cavity walls and loft insulation. The weather compensation on the boiler coupled with larger radiators meant that for most of the year flow temps were under 45c. Only on the deepest darkest days did it need to go higher as the colder it is outside, the faster your heat escapes.

My house now only runs at 60c flow temps and has Drayton Wiser valves in every room so I can program every room independently. Oil usage has dropped from 2000l every 10 months to 1500l.

If I could turn the boiler down further I would, but 60c is the limit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
472
We have a hybrid system with a heat pump and an auxiliary heat when it gets really cold. The aux only really comes on in super cold days.

It's great. Last month in fall when our weather was really nice our electrical bill was only $77
 

Lunchbox-

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,150
bEast Coast
1. house has to be newer build with correct ducts and insulation. not gonna happen in the current housing market

2, they can't handle new england winters. they are mostly for softer states

3. electricity bills have also skyrocketed in my area
 

DJ_Lae

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,948
Edmonton
Would be neat, but the cost was prohibitive when we replaced our furnace the other year and it would have had to be paired with a gas furnace anyway for the colder winter months.

Figured a 98% efficient furnace was the best single bet.

Geothermal would have been even cooler but the drilling/install costs are nuts.
 

The Traveller

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,036
Got a heat pump and heated floors. I've never lived better. I can walk around in my bare feet in winter and feel fine.
 

Chasex

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,707
Yes, in Texas. I have a new home with all the energy efficient stuff and spray foam insulation. Combined with being single story it's very energy efficient. Even in the dead of summer my electric bill would only be around $100, but the solar completely covers it and then some. It can get somewhat cold in the winter here in Texas, but still works well and no need for aux heat.
 

SolidSnakeBoy

Member
May 21, 2018
7,355
I have one, though it gets cold enough here that I opted to still install a gas furnace in my home. Should only be needed for a few weeks of the year.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,800
Air source heat pumps are most efficient in milder climates.
However, you can get a ground source heat pump that works anywhere. The ground under the freeze line, usually about five feet down, is pretty much the same temp throughout the year. Problem is these heat pumps cost a lot more because you have to pay the HVAC company to excavate a hole in the ground to make that happen.
I think you have told me this before and legit almost swayed me on getting one haha, it's def something I should research more. Really I just need a one room solution (I just need like 6 or 7 degrees warmer in one room), the rest of the house is fine as far as heat goes, but that kind of sucks because I'm going to be spending hundreds of dollars regardless of what I do for just one room to be as warm as I'd like it.
 

Reick17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
286
Going into my first winter with one now. Live in the northeast and got an extra cold model with no backup. With be very interesting to see how this all goes. Handled AC really well in this last summer but definitely nervous to see how it will go with constant near 0 nights in mid to late jan. Working great now at 20-30F. Way better than the 30 year old furnace we had before.
I've never had an issue with mine. It tends to keep up with the temp just fine (I don't go too high in winter), but the efficiency drops and uses more electricity.

Honestly, it's a very comfortable heat, like boiler heat. I plan on using heat pumps only going forward, and ideally with enough solar to make them free.
 

Damaniel

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,554
Portland, OR
My old house had an inefficient gas furnace and inefficient air conditioner which I never got around to replacing, even though they cost me a lot of money to run. My new house has a heat pump with electric backup heat, but it's only been cold enough to trigger the backup a few times the entire time I've lived here. If I lived somewhere colder I'd probably want a gas furnace to help handle the load during the winter, but the setup I have works well and is super cheap to run.
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,199
Canada
As of right now they don't work too well in the Canadian prairie winters where it can get -30C or lower sometimes. So you do need at least a backup heat source. But the tech is getting better and hopefully they can get them to eventually work at those really cold temps.
 

Sacrilicious

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,498
What I can't wrap my head around is when it's sub 40 degrees F (or 4 degrees C). How is there any heat to pull in? Magic?

This makes way more sense when you work with an absolute unit of temperature like Kelvin. Intuitively, you can think of it as "concentrating" thermal energy.

At 40 F, the absolute temperature is about 278 K. You only need to raise the temperature by ~5% to reach room temperature (293 K). It's not actually that different, in terms of thermal energy, but Fahrenheit/Celsius are misleading.

You can get a quick and dirty estimate using the ideal gas law (PV = nRT). If n, R and V are constant then you only need to raise the pressure by ~5%, which requires some energy but much less than conventional electrical heating.

In reality the math is more complicated than that (the other variables aren't all constant, air isn't a perfect ideal gas, the full setup is much more complex, actually transporting that heat has inefficiencies, etc) but a 5% temperature bump is totally doable with a modest compressor.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,497
Got a Mitsubishi system installed in my house. Cools the house so well in the summer but it really seems to lack in the winter. Felt pretty ripped off my the company and I've had to use my oil furnace to keep the house above 60
 

Tater

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,614
I love my heat pump, it's the perfect pairing with solar. My utility bills are basically zero at this point. I did get a gas furnace as a backup unit for when it gets really cold, but I sort of regret it as it doesn't get used often. The neat thing about it is that I can enter the cost of electricity and gas, and can tell it to heat with whatever is cheaper.

1. house has to be newer build with correct ducts and insulation. not gonna happen in the current housing market

2, they can't handle new england winters. they are mostly for softer states

3. electricity bills have also skyrocketed in my area
In case it changes your mind, I'm also in the New England area and my heat pump has handled it just fine (with minimal gas backup usage). I'm in an older house that the previous owners added ducting to - it can be done, although I don't know what it cost them. You're right about the electric costs, though. But I think you'd still come out ahead compared to the cost of heating oil if you're using an older burner.

PS: Midwestern winters are colder, although the delta narrows if you're in Maine.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,309
My family still has an older house in New York, so this will likely never be viable both due to cost and practicality. Same with many homes up north. Very fascinating technology, and I love Technology Connections again.
 

Lunchbox-

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,150
bEast Coast
I love my heat pump, it's the perfect pairing with solar. My utility bills are basically zero at this point. I did get a gas furnace as a backup unit for when it gets really cold, but I sort of regret it as it doesn't get used often. The neat thing about it is that I can enter the cost of electricity and gas, and can tell it to heat with whatever is cheaper.


In case it changes your mind, I'm also in the New England area and my heat pump has handled it just fine (with minimal gas backup usage). I'm in an older house that the previous owners added ducting to - it can be done, although I don't know what it cost them. You're right about the electric costs, though. But I think you'd still come out ahead compared to the cost of heating oil if you're using an older burner.

PS: Midwestern winters are colder, although the delta narrows if you're in Maine.
i have gas so it's not as expensive as oil thankfully. but i'm currently in a 1918 built triplex with radiator heating. so the cost of turning it into a properly insulated ducting system would be 10-20k by itself. then another 10-15 for the heat pump with back up gas and another 15-20k for solar if i want to make it cost effective like yours. so you're talking about close to a 50k investment to save maybe a hundred bucks a month

you lucked out on the setup. if i can buy a newer duplex or a single family in the future i'll look into it. but at the current moment the tech/cost/"worth it factor" is basically none for my scenario. and a lot of people here are in the same scenario in the northeast sadly
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,023
i have gas so it's not as expensive as oil thankfully. but i'm currently in a 1918 built triplex with radiator heating. so the cost of turning it into a properly insulated ducting system would be 10-20k by itself. then another 10-15 for the heat pump with back up gas and another 15-20k for solar if i want to make it cost effective like yours. so you're talking about close to a 50k investment to save maybe a hundred bucks a month

you lucked out on the setup. if i can buy a newer duplex or a single family in the future i'll look into it. but at the current moment the tech/cost/"worth it factor" is basically none for my scenario. and a lot of people here are in the same scenario in the northeast sadly
Yep. We're still on oil over in NE Jersey. Gets cold enough here some weeks. Doing any of this would take forever to recoup the costs.

That said, we did get free new windows and insulation put into the walls a few years ago which helped keep costs down (low income families get some good perks). We also buy the oil directly from a supplier instead of having a contract with like PSE&G or whoever the hell serviced us back then. Total ripoff lol

The tech does seem great tho. I'm surprised it's only recently been a thing or whatever. Tech finally got better? The principle seems simple enough.
 

Darren Lamb

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,844
i have gas so it's not as expensive as oil thankfully. but i'm currently in a 1918 built triplex with radiator heating. so the cost of turning it into a properly insulated ducting system would be 10-20k by itself. then another 10-15 for the heat pump with back up gas and another 15-20k for solar if i want to make it cost effective like yours. so you're talking about close to a 50k investment to save maybe a hundred bucks a month

you lucked out on the setup. if i can buy a newer duplex or a single family in the future i'll look into it. but at the current moment the tech/cost/"worth it factor" is basically none for my scenario. and a lot of people here are in the same scenario in the northeast sadly

Mini splits don't need ducts and work fine. And programs like Mass Save will allow you to get insulation at a fraction of the cost.
 
Oct 27, 2017
21,693
...the previous owners added ducting to - it can be done, although I don't know what it cost them.
Obviously I don't know your house or situation, but that seems really not very smart of them.
Adding ductwork to an older house and then central heat and air conditioning is super expensive.
Better to invest in sealing up the home as much as possible (insulation, using caulk and such around energy loss spaces (doors, windows, outlets on exterior walls and so on) and then having a mini split system installed. I think most can support four indoor units, with some up to eight.
And this gives you the ability to zone your home. Just heat or cool the rooms that need it and leave the rest of the indoor units off or at a low setting.
 
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Tater

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,614
Obviously I don't know your house or situation, but that seems really not very smart of them.
Adding ductwork to an older house and then central heat and air conditioning is super expensive.
Better to invest in sealing up the home as much as possible (insulation, using caulk and such around energy loss spaces (doors, windows, outlets on exterior walls and so on) and then having a mini split system installed. I think most can support four indoor units, with some up to eight.
And this gives you the ability to zone your home. Just heat or cool the rooms that need it and leave the rest of the indoor units off or at a low setting.
So many questionable decisions in this house 😅 The previous owners added on to the house in a major way, cutting through the old foundation and extending it in the back. I think that's when they added the ducting. My house is one story, so they ran the ducts in the basement, popping up in various places around the house. It works, but the ducts are below the floor joist, so it cuts into the ceiling height in the basement.

Weirdest thing to me is that they did all that, but didn't seal the ducts. Once I bought the place, I noticed that the ducts leaked significant amounts of air. I sealed them as best as I could, but obviously could only get to a small portion of the duct seams. I ended up paying to have my ducts aerosealed, which made a massive difference. Highly recommended if you have older (or improperly installed) ducting
 

MrWhiskers

Member
Oct 27, 2017
338
We had solar put on this past year and had a small ac scare during a heat wave so I've been eyeing up a heat pump installation. I'd like it to be the primary cooling and heating for the house with the AC and furnace as backup. Really have no idea how much something like that would cost though
 

Sidewinder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,422
I'd have to sell like ten kidneys to get one installed for our 120 year old house, so no, but I sure wish I could afford one.
 

darkazcura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,936
I have a heat pump for my basement, but it costs me a lot to run unfortunately as electricity is very expensive in MA. I did the numbers, and it's definitely more efficient than my gas furnace for the first two floors of my home, but it's not cost efficient just because gas is so much cheaper than electricity here.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,500
Still. Radiators need like what … 65° while floor heating needs like 45°?
Huge difference in efficiency.

its 0c outside at the moment. My house thermostat is set to 21c. My boiler is running at 44c flow temperature to the radiators.

Boilers only run 60-70c because plumbers slap in big boilers to heat your water quickly and set high temperatures so peple don't complain it doesn't heat up quick.

If you have reasonable sized radiators you'd be suprrised how low you can go with flow temps and still get nice warm rooms and with being lower temp you avoid the on/off sudden swings in temperature you get from really hot water. Saves energy and gives me confidence we could switch to a heat pump while only replacing maybe the spare room radiator.


Ultimately, heat loss is heat loss. No matter you live in a passivehaus or an 1800s victorian terrace - you will have a heat loss figure for how much heat your house loses. Right now you're probably countering that heat loss with a gas boiler. Most houses will be able to match that heat loss with a heat pump.

Yes its more effecive if you do a bit of insluation first - but it would also be effective if you insulated more even using gas.
 

TooFriendly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,050
Yes, it heats and cools my house.
it's probably the most common way to heat and cool homes in New Zealand now.