Do you support Scottish Independence? (Leaving the United Kingdom)
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Londoner here,
I fucking hate the direction the UK is going, and it's undeniable that the Scottish people were sold a lie on the union's future in the EU and are now being carried along with a terrible idea they never voted for.
I sympathize with them a lot and think they should have a second ref.
I fucking hate the direction the UK is going, and it's undeniable that the Scottish people were sold a lie on the union's future in the EU and are now being carried along with a terrible idea they never voted for.
I sympathize with them a lot and think they should have a second ref.
I think Scotland has the right to decide whether or not they want to remain part of the UK, simply because the last few years have proven their vote doesn't mean shit. The entire country can vote in one particular way and it won't make a bloody difference to the final outcome.
I think the Scottish people need to ask themselves just how much power does the SNP actually have to enact change, both in Scotland and in the UK as a whole, and whether they believe a country as small as Scotland (the population of the whole country is significantly less than the number of people living in London alone) can survive by itself.
I'm totally behind them either way. Nobody should ever be forced to feel as though their votes are meaningless, much less a whole country. This is one of the few instances where I think the UK should adopt a US system, wherein each country of the UK has equal say in everything regardless of population size.
I think the Scottish people need to ask themselves just how much power does the SNP actually have to enact change, both in Scotland and in the UK as a whole, and whether they believe a country as small as Scotland (the population of the whole country is significantly less than the number of people living in London alone) can survive by itself.
I'm totally behind them either way. Nobody should ever be forced to feel as though their votes are meaningless, much less a whole country. This is one of the few instances where I think the UK should adopt a US system, wherein each country of the UK has equal say in everything regardless of population size.
I don't get how Brown could have done anything, he probably shouldn't have promised anything on behalf of Dodgy Dave after the AV+ shenanigans though.
Political unions dissolving is dangerous, especially for a region as war prone as Europe, so I generally would oppose this.
But there's got to be a compromise that also respects the right to self determination (I don't know what that is).
But there's got to be a compromise that also respects the right to self determination (I don't know what that is).
I support Scotland deciding, but I think there needs to be a cool off period. Scotland needs to apply for EU membership the moment the country leaves the Union anyway. If Scotland were to leave the Union tomorrow, we're still all exiting the EU together.
Give it more time, during which Scotland can plan for re-entry into the EU, and then try a referendum again. If Brexit really is the worst economic nightmare in history, it will only make the case to leave the Union stronger. In effect, it would be a win-win scenario.
Give it more time, during which Scotland can plan for re-entry into the EU, and then try a referendum again. If Brexit really is the worst economic nightmare in history, it will only make the case to leave the Union stronger. In effect, it would be a win-win scenario.
Only if Gravedigger's "Rebellion" becomes the official anthem.
The clan's are marching `gainst the law
Bagpipers play the tunes of war
Death or glory I will find
Rebellion on my mind
More serious, I'm usually against breaking up states for nationalist or...provincialist, if that's close to a real word, reasons BUT getting crashed out the EU for 100% dumb and racist reasons by Little Englanders after centuries as a vassal state, yeah, the Scots have my support.
The clan's are marching `gainst the law
Bagpipers play the tunes of war
Death or glory I will find
Rebellion on my mind
More serious, I'm usually against breaking up states for nationalist or...provincialist, if that's close to a real word, reasons BUT getting crashed out the EU for 100% dumb and racist reasons by Little Englanders after centuries as a vassal state, yeah, the Scots have my support.
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Precisely why I point out Gordon is wheeled out, either by himself or by the forces that control him, any time there are rumblings of Scotland not being happy. He put his name to the Vow, he is responsible for doing so. His carelessness duped Scottish people and has left them confused and upset.
He probably contributed to the Scottish Labour Red Wedding. Why trust Labour again? Even now Scottish Labour is torn down the middle with MPs saying Scotland should be blocked indyref2 at all costs and others saying while we might hope to keep the UK together, the mandate for the vote itself is clear.
Depending on how you define a country, there's about 80 or so independent countries in the world with a population smaller than Scotland's. There's no question that it could survive by itself.
Think of it this way:
With UK exiting the EU and jumping off a cliff in the process, Scotland (and Irish) independence will actually strengthen the EU if the EU permits them to join.
Just a matter of time at this point tbh.
England and Wales are now an afterthought in European history.
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There's a reason I pointed out Norway in the OP. A population of like 5.2 million, Scotland is around 5.5 million.
While this country is making great strides to move into renewables and things such as our windfarms powering us
There is still a transition process to a green future where the Scottish North Sea Oil and Gas will be used/traded.
There is no danger of a war actually kicking off if Scotland leaves the UK. Who is gonna fling fists because of that?
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I don't keep tabs on the guy but i doubt he will fall for that again, he probably believed it would get done, the age of trust is dead now.
I think they should be given the chance, and absolutely wouldn't blame them if they left, but I don't think it's a good idea. Being admitted to the EU is by no means a formality, and I don't see them having a strong enough economy on their own. Also, we should be aiming for less borders, not more. But, the UK is a shit-show right now so if they want to go, good luck to them. I'd leave if I had the means.
They'll be harrumphing at Ibrox for years. I wonder if their team will actually die off since the fanbase will lose a lot of identity if we leave the UK.
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Oh, I bet if there is an indyref2 Brown will be back out again. He's the only Labour leader that isn't "War criminal Tony" that can get dangled in front of a country that hasn't returned a Conservative majority since 1955.
That's why Brown is sent out to address the Scots. We used to be a Labour country, so the Better Together campaign wants to use our Labour history against us.
It's not as if Brown's opinion on keeping the UK together will have changed, so as I said, I fully expect to see him out again pleading with Scots to stay in the UK.
No I do not.
I also think that the UK should stay in the EU and that we already have enough countries in Europe.
I also think that the UK should stay in the EU and that we already have enough countries in Europe.
I still think leaving the UK would be a massive mistake for Scotland even with Brexit and the Tories in power for another 5 years, the SNPs whole plan for making Scotland a prosperous country relied on oil prices, they are 20 years too late to that party.
Even in practical terms it doesn't really make sense, what would Scotland's credit rating as a nation be? How much of the UKs debt would they take with them? How could they ever pay that debt (or all the new debt they'll create given the budget deficit in Scotland) back without even more austerity or significantly raising taxes?
To me the whole thing seems like another Brexit situation in that all anyone wants to think about is the emotional arguments, when there's actually just a whole bunch of practical reasons it's a bad idea.
Overall I strongly doubt that an independent Scotland would be any better at tackling Scotland's problems than the devolved government could be.
Even in practical terms it doesn't really make sense, what would Scotland's credit rating as a nation be? How much of the UKs debt would they take with them? How could they ever pay that debt (or all the new debt they'll create given the budget deficit in Scotland) back without even more austerity or significantly raising taxes?
To me the whole thing seems like another Brexit situation in that all anyone wants to think about is the emotional arguments, when there's actually just a whole bunch of practical reasons it's a bad idea.
Overall I strongly doubt that an independent Scotland would be any better at tackling Scotland's problems than the devolved government could be.
My preference would be for Scotland to go independent, but to take the north of England with it.
Since that's very unlikely, my feelings are this:
It would be extremely sad to tear apart Great Britain, but I can completely understand why the people on Scotland would want to be free from the arseholes running England.
Seems quite likely to me that the people of Scotland do, in the majority, want independence. I suspect that part of the reason the independence referendum went the way it did last time was because they were promised by the Tory government that remaining in Britain would keep them in the EU and keep the economy stable.
I think they should probably have another referendum (and it should be a watertight legally binding referendum that is properly thought out), and they should honour whatever result that referendum returns.
Will likely doom Britain to decades of Tory rule if they do go independent, but that's hardly Scotland's fault or problem.
Since that's very unlikely, my feelings are this:
It would be extremely sad to tear apart Great Britain, but I can completely understand why the people on Scotland would want to be free from the arseholes running England.
Seems quite likely to me that the people of Scotland do, in the majority, want independence. I suspect that part of the reason the independence referendum went the way it did last time was because they were promised by the Tory government that remaining in Britain would keep them in the EU and keep the economy stable.
I think they should probably have another referendum (and it should be a watertight legally binding referendum that is properly thought out), and they should honour whatever result that referendum returns.
Will likely doom Britain to decades of Tory rule if they do go independent, but that's hardly Scotland's fault or problem.
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I don't live in Scotland, so it isn't my decision to make
I do support their right to self-determination, and thus their right to choose the future of their territory.
I do support their right to self-determination, and thus their right to choose the future of their territory.
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How about the main one, we wouldn't use a Universal Credit system which in "just" 10 years has destroyed the UK? Record poverty levels again, record foodbank levels and homelessness through the roof. Benefits/social security is a reserved matter. While the SNP mitigated the bedroom tax, they cannot overhaul the benefits system. No Scottish Government can with the current devolved powers.
And if you think the Tories are only getting 5 years... Let me know the last Labour majority Government in England and when that was.
Your argument basically amounts to "its shit here, but you'll do worse than us!". I don't think so. An independent Scotland with proportional representation and multiple credible parties fighting each other sounds like a great future to me, irrespective of any initial hurdles.
I support a nations right to self-determination, so have another go and join your EU bros. We're the cool older sibling.
It is abundantly clear that our politics and Westminster don't align and we are constantly belittled by clueless Englanders. Even if we end up worse off financially, I'd rather that than live on the leash against our will.
All of the concerns were hammered out in the white paper before we could even have our first vote. Funny we had to have a huge plan for independence but the Brexit vote went ahead with no plan.
I just fucking hate the UK. Different standards if you're not the rich and powerful.
I don't know where you got this idea from. The SNP published a huge white paper, their "whole plan" absolutely was not just "oil prices".
It'd probably fall into the typical range for a smaller European nation, and those are generally pretty good ratings.
The precedent on this is clear: the amount of debt which a new nation is obligated to take from a continuing nation is 0%. Any higher percentage is decided by treaty (Scotland might offer to take on a share of the debt to acquire UK state assets located in Scotland, for example).
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Brexit did have a plan, a very simple plan.
Brexit means.... Brexit.
Can you imagine if the SNP were driving around in a 350m NHS independence bus? We'd have had to send Nicola out with some tea
At the time of the Scottish referendum I didn't want Scotland to leave, simply a (selfish) gut-reaction to the unknown as a Brit (English).
Since then, largely because of Brexit, I whole-heartedly support Scottish independence. If I was Scottish I would vote for independence and wish them well doing so. If I could move to Scotland and be included in that I would. England is a shithole that only wants to drag down others with it.
Since then, largely because of Brexit, I whole-heartedly support Scottish independence. If I was Scottish I would vote for independence and wish them well doing so. If I could move to Scotland and be included in that I would. England is a shithole that only wants to drag down others with it.
I fully support their independence if that's what they want. Although like Brexit it's more difficult as an isolated country to be isolationist. For example paying for EU membership on it's own will be more difficult.
I'm not Scottish or British, but I am European and would love for Scotland to remain part of the EU. Having been there, Edinburgh is a European city. (so is London, but alas)
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I didn't have the latter option but a few posters outside of the UK requested it. I guess they feel the yes/no is more relevant for people who live in the UK, whereas I initially didn't mind who was voting in the poll, living in the UK or not.
The main reason I created the topic isn't to run some dummy indyref poll on Era, but given how "interesting" things are for the current state of the UK and what ripple effects it might have on global politics. Even the American trade deals with the UK in a post-Brexit UK could be up in arms if Scottish independence is coming knocking.
As of now Boris can try and sell off Scottish assets to Donald Trump (or anyone else), Scottish independence starts a fight in the UK for Scotland to walk away with ownership of its land and surrounding assets.
As a Brit I'd be sad to see Scotland leave the UK and being Welsh I worry about where Scottish Independence would leave us. I imagine the push for Welsh independence would become more prominent, but Westminster would probably try to regain more power over us to stop it.
But I can't say I'd blame the Scots for leaving; its very clear now that Scotland's political views are generally the direct opposite to the rest of the UK so why should they stay?
Surely the Tories will be vehemently against another referendum though? So how realistic is it?
But I can't say I'd blame the Scots for leaving; its very clear now that Scotland's political views are generally the direct opposite to the rest of the UK so why should they stay?
Surely the Tories will be vehemently against another referendum though? So how realistic is it?
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Yes, they've already said they'd deny the request to hold another referendum, so it goes down to the political smarts of this lady and her party to exert sustained pressure
The Tories might be able to hold out for a bit, but holding out for 5 years or more? That probably will reach the realm of civil disobedience and it will be unsustainable. This is a reason I think it's worthwhile people in the EU and even America, keeping an eye on the UK and helping out where they can.
We're not at some levels of Hong Kong or anything, but things can change quickly, especially with unrest at an all time high with the UK in the mess it is and the Labour party collapsing in England.
