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ket

Member
Jul 27, 2018
13,120
I think RDR2 is one of the best game stories I've ever played. I have mixed feelings about the gameplay but I've done four playthroughs because the story and characters were great.

However, when viewing it as a prequel to RDR1, the story left me wanting in a lot of ways. My issues with the story range from petty retconning criticisms to bigger issues such as how RDR2 failed to expand on the characters of Javier and Bill.

RDR1 is a story about a reformed criminal who's forced to hunt down his adopted family in order to save his biological one.

Throughout the game, many of John's interactions with his old gang include dialogue about their unseen pasts and the somewhat thin characterizations of Bill, Javier and Dutch are kind of justified since the player is seeing the endpoint of their relationships with John and their lives in general.

So, going in RDR2, I was looking forward to learning more about John's relationship with Dutch, Bill and Javier so that I'd care more about them in RDR1.

Unfortunately, the prequel retconned Dutch's gang and added so many new characters that Javier and Bill basically had nothing to do throughout most of the game. There are some fun camp conversations you can catch here and there along with an ironic story mission where Javier helps save John's life. But, for the most part, Bill and Javier don't do much.

The characters of Dutch, John, Abigail, Jack and even Uncle are all improved in RDR1 due to how they're portrayed in RDR2. But I didn't feel the same about two of the main villains of RDR1's story that John spends two-thirds of the game chasing down. Honestly, it's kind of bizarre to not significantly expand on Bill and Javier's characters and their relationship with John considering how much RDR1 focuses on them.

Then there's the retcons. I'm fine with the new gang members but some of the story decisions seriously clash with RDR1. For example, Blackwater in RDR1 was just a modernizing town that the Marstons happened to live near but in RDR2 it's a town that Dutch and his gang shot up (retconned into being the Blackwater massacre mentioned in RDR1).

But since RDR2 is a prequel to RDR1 then the Marstons have to live near a town that Dutch's gang shot up nearly a decade ago and where John is still a wanted man (there's even a Blackwater newspaper that John can buy in RDR2 that mentions him, Dutch and other wanted outlaws). John even attempts to commit loan fraud in Blackwater when he gives the bank manager his fake name before inexplicably giving his real name for no reason.

There are plenty of other retcon examples that, in my opinion, both hamper and improve RDR1 but this OP has been long enough.

So, what do you think about RDR2 as a prequel?
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,081
I think it was a good STORY, but Javier and Bill - especially Javier - were poorly served by the narrative. Javier is portrayed as one of the most loyal and friendly members of the crew and they basically just have him randomly stop talking to Arthur for the entire final act to justify him turning on his brothers without a word. He basically doesn't say ANYTHING in the last mission.

If Guarma was handled better (or cut entirely) we could've had more time to develop those guys instead of so much of the focus being put on Micah and his utterly telegraphed turn.
 

Nigel Tufnel

Member
Mar 5, 2019
3,168
I find it hard to fault the game because Arthur Morgan is one of the better conceived and executed video game characters ever written, and I really enjoyed the game and story. I found there Bill and Javier were there just enough, and organically, to expand on them while still fitting their characterization in RDR1. Obviously the main prequel story goal was to document the downfall of Dutch and I think they executed brilliantly.


..... A prequel where you play as Javier might have been a real gut punch, though I get why they chose not to go that route.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,494
I think it was a great prequel, two of the greatest games ever made imo. I think prequels usually suffer from discrepancies cause they're made after the fact, but overall it was a worthy thematic prequel.
 

tyfon

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,680
Norway
I found the story in RDR1 to be far superior, I felt it kept repeating itself over and over in RDR2 without me having any way of guiding the outcome. I also didn't really buy into Dutch getting mad like that, so in some ways it took away a bit of RDR1 for me.

What would be cool if they padded RDR2 out with side missions where you play as the other characters, not sure if it has been done yet though I have not started it since I finished it the first time.
 

DireRaven

Member
Oct 27, 2017
797
I though Kenny Baker was excellent as R2D2 (1) in Star Wars, but hated the R2D2 (2) CGI stuff immensely! /s
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
9,104
Absolutely.

I suspect RDR3 will follow a young Dutch and Hosea and we'll just continue to go backwards in time.

I'd love a spin-off with Jack Marston in the 1920s. Not cowboy but more 1920s gangsters.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
20,055
Bill and Javier simply aren't all that important to John, even in RDR 1. You just need to get them because the government wants you to, not because John has some deep connection with them. I never found them particularly interesting in RDR 1, and there weren't even much dialogue with them either. I definitely found Dutch to be quite interesting though, but even in that regard, RDR 1 was very, very vague about the past and Dutch himself. There was like.... 3-4 scenes in the game in total where John openly talked about it.

RDR 2 actually made Javier and BIll a lot more interesting than just standard 2 bit western villains, so I definitely like what they've done there. And the stuff with Dutch, John, Abigail and surprisingly - Uncle was fantastic in general, so I'd say it's a really good prequel.

To add to that, I like that RDR 2 doesn't really focus on John until near the end. It was a game that told its own story, and didn't just exist to prop up the original.
 

mindsale

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,911
I liked how much more video gamey the first game was. It was easier to control in myriad ways.
 

DSoup

Member
Oct 28, 2017
275
London
As somebody who is not a fan of westerns but who stumbled upon RDR on PS3, and absolutely loved that game, I stumbled with many of the gameplay design decisions for RDR2, which felt to me predicted on achieve a vibe rather than good gameplay.

Similarly, some of the characters were cartoonishly exaggerated. Micah was utterly obvious from the outset and Dutch's facade as somebody who cared for his troop fell quickly.

I completed the game on PS4 and enjoyed it, but it was littered with things I was not a fan of.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,723
Yeah, Javier was the worst part of the game for sure, and solely on account of how he goes from being a great character to doing nothing and turning on Arthur instantly for no reason in particular all so he could live out his destiny as a 1 note Mexican stereotype.

The biggest problem is how, understandably, none of the RDR2 exclusive gang members are ever mentioned whatsoever in RDR. RDR took place in a world where Arthur, Hosea, Molly, Tilly, Sean, Lenny, Charles, Mrs Grimshaw, Swanson, Micah, Mary-Beth, Trelawny, Sadie, Pearson, and Strauss just straight up didn't exist.
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,767
To add to that, I like that RDR 2 doesn't really focus on John until near the end. It was a game that told its own story, and didn't just exist to prop up the original.
This.

It works as a self contained story.

Even if you didn't play RDR1, I don't think you lost anything and that's what a prequel should do. Tell a story that is self-contained that leads to the future events already detailed and I think it does that well.

I don't think it's a perfect narrative, but I was engaged for the whole thing. I think it leads in well and the retcons aren't overly annoying.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,935
I think the first game was the better game, but 2 does a great job in telling a story that led up to the first game.
 

hydruxo

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,559
Yeah for sure. Gives a lot of extra context and character to John, Dutch, Abigail, and Jack. There are of course a lot of RDR2 characters that are straight up never mentioned in the first game though, which is understandable considering it was made after the fact. 2 is the better game overall though.
 

nachum00

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,459
As somebody who is not a fan of westerns but who stumbled upon RDR on PS3, and absolutely loved that game, I stumbled with many of the gameplay design decisions for RDR2, which felt to me predicted on achieve a vibe rather than good gameplay.

Similarly, some of the characters were cartoonishly exaggerated. Micah was utterly obvious from the outset and Dutch's facade as somebody who cared for his troop fell quickly.

I completed the game on PS4 and enjoyed it, but it was littered with things I was not a fan of.
Lol literally every side character in RDR1 was basically a cartoon. Weird thing to complain about with 2.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
20,055
Yeah, Javier was the worst part of the game for sure, and solely on account of how he goes from being a great character to doing nothing and turning on Arthur instantly for no reason in particular all so he could live out his destiny as a 1 note Mexican stereotype.

The biggest problem is how, understandably, none of the RDR2 exclusive gang members are ever mentioned whatsoever in RDR. RDR took place in a world were Arthur, Hosea, Molly, Tilly, Sean, Lenny, Charles, Mrs Grimshaw, Swanson, Micah, Mary-Beth, Trelawny, Sadie, Pearson, and Strauss just straight up didn't exist.

While a few extra scenes to show Javier's dilemma would've been welcome, he simply chose to stay loyal to Dutch and that's.... kind of what Arthur did the first 5 chapters, despite being fully aware of all the bad shit he's doing for him. Javier simply didn't get to self reflect like Arthur when he caught TB. Thy're all murderes and thieves, the only thing that kept order among them was Dutch's leadership, as soon as he started stumbling people made the decision to either bail or stick with him til the bitter end. Javier chose poorly in the end.

(with that being said i recall something about Javier being the only one not directly shooting at Arthur and John at the end of Ch6 or something, which is a nice touch)
 

ciddative

Member
Apr 5, 2018
4,636
It was a great story, but I found the epilogue overly long and indulgent. It dulled the impact of the main story's climax and went too far in the name of fanservice.

I loved the montage at the end, it was a great lead-in to RDR1, if only there wasn't gameplay before it.
 

Host Samurai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,251
RDR2 was a masterpiece and I found it to be a true evolution of Rockstars open world formula. As much as I loved RDR1, I didn't see it as much as an evolution to the PS2 era GTA games outside of the graphics. All those little micro systems in RDR2 were insane to me.
 
OP
OP
ket

ket

Member
Jul 27, 2018
13,120
Bill and Javier simply aren't all that important to John, even in RDR 1. You just need to get them because the government wants you to, not because John has some deep connection with them. I never found them particularly interesting in RDR 1, and there weren't even much dialogue with them either. I definitely found Dutch to be quite interesting though, but even in that regard, RDR 1 was very, very vague about the past and Dutch himself. There was like.... 3-4 scenes in the game in total where John openly talked about it.

RDR 2 actually made Javier and BIll a lot more interesting than just standard 2 bit western villains, so I definitely like what they've done there. And the stuff with Dutch, John, Abigail and surprisingly - Uncle was fantastic in general, so I'd say it's a really good prequel.

To add to that, I like that RDR 2 doesn't really focus on John until near the end. It was a game that told its own story, and didn't just exist to prop up the original.

john definitely has a deep connection with them. in rdr1, dutch's gang was just four people and john considered bill and javier to be family. he didn't go after them for personal reasons but, objectively, he clearly deeply cared about them in rdr1.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,341
Its one of the best prequels I've ever played.

It enrichens the first game so much to the point I almost feel like I should recommend people play it first. Doesn't spoil a thing from RDR1 either.
 

nachum00

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,459
RDR didn't felt like it was pretending to be serious, RDR2 did.
I definitely don't agree. I think GTA4 and RDR1 were Rockstars first attempts at serious games and they both suffered because the writing just wasn't good enough. I think RDR2 is the first time they actually managed to write a decent serious story. I understand if you think RDR2 was too goofy but you can't tell me RDR1 wasn't trying to be serious too.
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,354
No, mostly because Arthur as a character didn't exist in RDR1, but is incredibly important to John

Arthur essentially sacrifices his life to give John a new one.

It simply makes no sense for John to never even mention the existence of Arthur. While the story of RDR2 is easily the game's best asset, it connected fairly clumsily to RDR1 for that reason. Which is really strange because

the entire extended epilogue of the game is a very elaborate "let's connect this to RDR1" sequence, but despite all the writing and complicated montages they never bothered to write in some reason why John doesn't acknowledge Arthur's existence in RDR1. That left me extermely confused when the credits of the game started rolling.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
I think it was a good STORY, but Javier and Bill - especially Javier - were poorly served by the narrative. Javier is portrayed as one of the most loyal and friendly members of the crew and they basically just have him randomly stop talking to Arthur for the entire final act to justify him turning on his brothers without a word. He basically doesn't say ANYTHING in the last mission.

If Guarma was handled better (or cut entirely) we could've had more time to develop those guys instead of so much of the focus being put on Micah and his utterly telegraphed turn.


Yeah, Javier was the worst part of the game for sure, and solely on account of how he goes from being a great character to doing nothing and turning on Arthur instantly for no reason in particular all so he could live out his destiny as a 1 note Mexican stereotype.

The biggest problem is how, understandably, none of the RDR2 exclusive gang members are ever mentioned whatsoever in RDR. RDR took place in a world where Arthur, Hosea, Molly, Tilly, Sean, Lenny, Charles, Mrs Grimshaw, Swanson, Micah, Mary-Beth, Trelawny, Sadie, Pearson, and Strauss just straight up didn't exist.

Javier idolizes Dutch above all else, to the point of almost mimicking his appearance. Javier is loyal but when push comes to shove within the gang he was always going to side with Dutch.
 

CabooseMSG

Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,236
Yup, only way to make a prequel for the GOAT was to turn around and make the new GOAT, which they did
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,081
Javier idolizes Dutch above all else, to the point of almost mimicking his appearance. Javier is loyal but when push comes to shove within the gang he was always going to side with Dutch.

And it would have been nice for the game to actually play with that, rather than have the ONLY sign of his conflicted nature being him holding his gun up in the air while Dutch, Bill, Micah and Micah's goons all aim directly at Arthur and John.

I liked Javi a lot and the game just kinda STOPS letting him be a character for the last five or six hours of the plot. His mocap actor also insinuated that they shot a lot of material for Javier that didn't make it into the game - now, this is very likely true for ALL the characters, due to how long the game was in dev, but his arc feels the most truncated because of his general non-presence during the most pivotal hours of the story.
 

Joo

Member
May 25, 2018
3,919
Arthur might be a bit too important for John to never get mentioned in the first game. Of course you can't change the original and imo Rockstar still did an absolutely amazing job with RDR2, but the total absence of Arthur makes RDR1's story a bit clumsy in retrospect.
 

Vidpixel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,638
I enjoyed the story more than the first, and Arthur was an incredibly fleshed-out character. It does suffer from issues that most prequels do in that it's pretty unfathomable that John would literally never mention his name in the first game (yes, I saw the scene/excuse why he tells his family not to bring him up, but it still makes little to no sense).
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Pinnacle of story telling in gaming for me. Unbelievable acting, and a protagonist that had charisma few can match. I loved it.

A gaming masterpiece and game of the generation.
 

TheBaldwin

Member
Feb 25, 2018
8,318
It really does a great job at deepening dutch and adding to the backstory of John and everybody in the camp and the camp environment.

As you say, Bill is fine as he's just pretty much an arsehole in RDR 2, and still an arsehole in RDR1 so he didnt really need much backstory.

Javier is the odd one because yeah he doesn't get any real characterisation (infact I'd actually go as far to say he's quite dull) in 2 but the thing is he wasn't exactly a major player in RDR1. Like sure you spend 1/3 of the game chasing him but....



Dude literally only has like 6 minutes of screentime, most of it he spends knocked out, dead, or tied up. Neither Bill or Javier are that prominent, there just random collectibles basically to push the main story along
 

Ubik

Member
Nov 13, 2018
2,521
Canada
Part of me thinks that Marston should have just been a background character that just disappears with his family when shit hit the fan. That way they wouldn't have needed to worry about any deeper character connections absent in RDR1. I was kinda surprised it went all-in on the prequel aspect of the story with the epilogue and everything.

But the story really only got good when it was getting more and more connected to RDR1 and Arthur started to pay more attention to the Marstons and getting them out of the life. The whole travelling gang thing got real repetitive before that outside of a few character things.

Overall I think it was great that they kinda didn't give a shit about anything not being more prominent or absent in RDR1, because a lot of the new characters are the best part and the way it all ended up coming together as a prequel was pretty great.
 
OP
OP
ket

ket

Member
Jul 27, 2018
13,120
Please tell me all the retcons you can think of in as much detail as possible.

I find that stuff super interesting.

i cant tell if this post is serious or not but here we go:

Good retcons:

-Abigail isn't demeaned for being a sex worker unlike in RDR1 where Dutch laughs about the whole gang "having her" and kinda implies that she was mistreated for it. In RDR2, most of the gang (aside from Micah, who sucks) treats Abigail with respect.

- The new gang members are mostly excellent additions and are one of the reasons I've replayed the game so much. The only weak link is Micah, who's easily the most boring major character in the whole game and plays a role in the nonsensical "snitch" subplot.

Bad retcons:

- Agent Ross finding out where John was in 1907 but not arresting him until 1911 for no reason. It's implied in RDR1 that 1911 was the first time that Ross found out about John and used him.

- The aforementioned Blackwater retcons with the Blackwater massacre and John's bizarre living decisions.

- Making Hosea a swindler even though John regularly insults the snake oil salesman in RDR1 for being a swindler sticks out a lot for me. In RDR1, John even says that his gang was better than the salesman because they were upfront about their robberies. Meanwhile Hosea is scamming people left and right in RDR2 lol.

Retcons I'm meh about:

- Arthur not being mentioned at all in RDR1 and the original Dutch gang being comprised of four main members are major plot inconsistencies for both games. Anyone playing RDR1 after RDR2 is going to be very confused whenever John speaks about his past.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,629
I thought it did a surprisingly good job as a prequel. It was only in the epilogue where I felt it fell into the common pitfalls - like when it treats John Marston's RDR1 attire like he's Bruce Wayne donning the Batsuit for the first time.

The role Javier and Bill played in the gang worked for me. They're mediocre - so it makes sense that they would slip through the net in dismantling a gang. They, and John Marston for a lot of RDR2, kind of occupy the same 'tier' within the gang - it helps to soften the retcon of expanding the gang as those characters are similarly distant remnants.
 

Mdot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
720
I was really impressed how it flowed into the story and premise of RDR1. Almost seamlessly really, where once I knew what was going on for the epilogue, it was a "wow" moment for me.

That said, there are parts in the character development that are a little strange especially knowing the end point they had to get to. Normally a story doesn't have the luxury of that and after a sequel happens is where you'd point to a fault in the origin story. This was the opposite and could have been avoided, but overall it didn't take away much from the experience for me in tying the two together.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,544
Yes OP I think it was overall. What a great game, one thing you can't fault with Rockstar is their ambition. Can't wait for their next game.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,696
RDR2 is a massive improvement over RDR1 in every way. Paper-thin characters are fleshed out massively. So I'm not bothered by any changes or retcons.