tripleg

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 30, 2020
1,132
Alternative title - name games that have done it tastefully.

Having just played a recently released game that committed this trope (want to avoid spoilers), I was frustrated at how lame the attempt was. Further compounded by the fact that all of your stuff is neatly in a box, given how big of a threat you were to the enemy the entire scene made literally no sense.

Thinking about past games that have done this, I can't think of a single game that has actually done this well.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,700
No. Metroid Zero Mission's finale was the fucking worst because of this.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,930
Mount Airy, MD
It's a trope I'll accept, but it's almost always ludicrous from any kind of coherent story writing perspective.

And I strongly suspect I know which game you're talking about, as I was similarly like "Uh...we're really doing this?" when it happened.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,755
I really liked the Skyward Sword one where it does it, but I generally dislike that trope, along with the ones where you either lose your abilities after the opening chapter, or in between games.
 

spacer

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,976
I liked it in Half-Life. But that was more building up your arsenal again rather than stealthing.
 

Deleted member 46429

Self-requested ban
Banned
Aug 4, 2018
2,185
In general, no. Mostly because surprise stealth in a non-stealth game can just be irritating; especially since many of these one-off levels don't have good stealth mechanics.

But like all tropes, there are times where it can be played well--usually if they integrate already existing mechanics rather than forcing new ones. For example, the 'naked Raiden' sequence isn't too bad since MGS2 is already a stealth game so it just feels like a different flavor of stealthing. A more niche example might be Thracia 776's chapter 4--this particular chapter doesn't introduce any new mechanics, but you use a new group of recruits ('the magi') to save and arm the protagonist and others who have been imprisoned; I don't mind the concept since the game isn't introduce any new mechanics per se and it organically evolves into a new chapter. An example of what I don't like is Wind Waker's Forsaken Fortress; it's like, the game really isn't made with stealth in mind.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,292
I think Forsaken Fortress in Wind Waker did this reasonably well...

maxresdefault.jpg


* Stealth was forgiving and only within certain sections. (in some parts, you could hit enemies with those deku sticks)
* There was no instant fail state, but rather, you were sent to prison and could just escape.
* Coming back here in the game at a later point felt pretty rewarding

But beyond that, i don't think there's any game that handled this trope well.
 

padlock

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
867
I do. Though I like the HL2 'we'll upgrade your weapon to be super powerful' one even more.
 

SunBroDave

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,347
It's important to understand that the typical reason that this scenario is done is because in classic three act story structure, the end of the second act is the hero at their lowest point, so to make the narrative and gameplay sides of the game cohesive, developers create a situation in which the player is also at their lowest point from gameplay ability standpoint as well.

Of course, it's all in the execution, and there's surely plenty of examples over the years of this type of thing being done poorly. As for recent examples where it's done well, I'll go with Ghost of Tsushima. The sequence is fairly short so it doesn't overstay it's welcome/get frustrating, it uses stealth mechanics that have already been developed throughout the game rather than newly introduce any stealth elements just for this section, and it allows you to listen in on the people around you and get a lot of narrative information while you're doing it. Plus it culminates in an extremely emotional moment to end the sequence.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Fallen Guardian of Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,947
Yes. The feeling of tension that arises from suddenly being more vulnerable than you're used to is exciting.
 

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,634
No it's almost always annoying.

God that part in Kingmaker where you lose all your magic ugh.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
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Oct 28, 2017
30,587
No
I dont mind when a game start you all powerful and then you lose all your powers for reason x and have to regain them during it cause its a nice preview of what you will be able to do down the line but during the game, after i got all my powers, dont take it away from me for bullshit reasons
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
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Sep 24, 2019
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Depends on the implementation. Take TLOU2 for example:

That moment when Abby escapes from the burning barn (while losing her backpack and guns) to fight that one enemy with nothing but melee attacks and dodging is one of the most intense sequences that series has produced.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
I like it for narrative reasons, like FFIX's You're Not Alone sequence

Also, Back-to-basics works a ton better than "suddenly we're gonna detour in another genre for half an hour, for a sequence we really haven't polished much"
 

Mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,622
Depends on the implementation. Take TLOU2 for example:

That moment when Abby escapes from the burning barn (while losing her backpack and guns) to fight that one enemy with nothing but melee attacks and dodging is one of the most intense sequences that series has produced.
The section where you first escape with Yara and Lev then get your backpack back after the fight is cool as well.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Not usually, but I love it when you lose everything and get even more powerful shortly after. Half-Life games are notorious for this. Alyx in particular made you feel godlike.
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,285
As with any trope, it depends on how it is handled. I liked it in Dishonored, for example.
 

Lego

Member
Nov 14, 2017
2,100
I hate it. I've played through a few games this year that I thought were boring and a slog, until I had most of the abilities towards the end.
 

est1992

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,232
Depends on the context. If Batman can't get to his utility belt or Spider-Man has his web shooters broken, it doesn't bother me. If someone like Goku just magically gets weakened by someone then yeah that would make me upset, but probably only for a second lol
 

FrostweaveBandage

Unshakable Resolve
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Sep 27, 2019
6,976
The one game where I think this worked was

Chrono Trigger's Blackbird section. They made it to where you basically needed to find the one chest that contained the gear of one of your crew, then you could fight enemies again. Short and sweet. The problem is really that these sections quickly wear out their welcomes.
 

ItchyTasty

Member
Feb 3, 2019
5,908
Depends on the implementation. Take TLOU2 for example:

That moment when Abby escapes from the burning barn (while losing her backpack and guns) to fight that one enemy with nothing but melee attacks and dodging is one of the most intense sequences that series has produced.
Yeah this worked well and was tense, as was the similar fight in the first game.

Edit: Reminds me that I loved playing as Ellie in TLOU1 even if you temporary lost all progress and weapons as Joel.
 

Cosmo Kramer

Prophet of Regret - Chicken Chaser
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Oct 28, 2017
2,185
MĂ©xico
I liked it in GoW when Kratos loses the powers he gained in the previous game, at the beginning of the next, it works there, but mid game or at the end, fucking no
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,321
I hate it, but it's such a common trope I come to expect it in almost every game.

THe analog to this is "You've got all of these great guns, but we're going to remove them from you for X amount of time...." The number of games that use this trope is so high. I think every Rockstar game since GTAIII has done it.

This post contains some vague mission spoilers for early in Red Dead Redemption 2. I'm not going to wrap this in spoiler tags because it's just one mission out of like, 100, in the middle of the game.

Red Dead Redemption 2 does it okay. There's a mission in or around Chapter 3, called "Blessed are the Peacemakers," where the gang is going to make peace with a feuding gang, but of course it's a trap and you get taken, beaten to an inch of your life, and captured. Where Rockstar breaks the trope is that you first "wakeup" after the ambush and you start to crawl away, seemingly to make you think that this is the point in the mission where you crawl to safety and grab your guns, go back and murder the blokes chasing you, but instead, the blokes notice you escaping, beat the hell out of you again and you black out again. You're taken to a secondary, safer location, where you escape again.

The reason for capturing you and holding you, rather than killing you, makes sense in the narrative of the game. You're to be used as leverage both over your existing gang and potentially in turning you over to the Pinkertons for a reward/clemency so that the Pinkertons can take down your gang. You're worth nothing dead, either to your gang or the pinkertons. Also the reason you're captured may tie into the climax of the story at the end of the game, "It was a setup," of course, but the person who brokers the setup could have tried to set you up in this way intentionally because they see you as an obstruction within the gang.

Also the reason your guns are relatively nearby makes some sense. Guns are worth a lot to the rival gang, they wouldn't destroy them or get rid of them, guns like that are hard to come by.

The mission is also a good way to get you oriented with one of your primary antagonists, a rival gang leader in the old west. I've often criticized games that don't let you near the antagonist, or you rarely see the antagonist, and yet you're supposed to want to kill or stop this guy you -- the player -- have never met or interacted with...? THis mission really gives you the first long encounter with your primary antagonist from early in the game since the first couple missions, and establishes your shared back story. I'm still a little critical of how RDR2 presents your antagonists, but it's better than GTAIV, V, and RDR, and this mission helps that.

A nice touch in this mission is how it ends. You don't get revenge on everybody in the mission, for the most part, you probably narrowly escape, fleeing in chaos because you're weak and hurt. Your horse was also taken (again, it makes sense to save the horse for the rival gang -- it's a nice horse), and while you -- Arthur -- are disoriented and lost, you have no map, your screen is warped and weird as you're near death, and it's hard to focus, your horse is the one that really saves you, flees from enemies, and wanders its way back to camp to drop you with your allies a long way away. As most may know by now, Red Read 2 really establishes a relationship between you and your horse throughout the game; Your horse can be perma-killed by enemies, and there's a strong in-game and narrative bonus to having one horse for a long time in the game. This is one of the first missions that really enforces that from a narrative point of view, Arthur says, "c'mon boy..... get me home..." and blacks out, and the game cuts into a cinematic of your horse meandering back towards camp with music to save you. It's one of the early moments that the game takes control away from you and shows a cinematic with an instrumental over it, among some of the best touching and memorable moments in the game.

What it also does well is that this mission is early in CHapter 3 just after you've arrived at this new camp in a new state that you haven't really explored before that if you've been playing through the game normally (e.g., not going and discovering everything first). You, the player, are as disoriented as Arthur was, and you don't know where you were. The graphical effects skewing the screen making it hard to tell where you are and how to get out are a nice touch. Even after replaying the game and knowing most of the map really well, when I replayed it I Was still a little lost until I found some familiar points a good ways away.

Here's the mission walkthrough:

www.youtube.com

Red Dead Redemption 2 - Mission #39 - Blessed are the Peacemakers [Gold Medal]

Red Dead Redemption 2 - Mission 100% Gold Medal Walkthrough \ Guide in 4KRed Dead Redemption 2 Gold Medal Missions Walkthrough Playlist:https://www.youtube.c...

This trope is predictable in Rockstar games. It's been put into every major Rockstar game I can think of since GTAIII.
 
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tripleg

tripleg

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 30, 2020
1,132
I think Forsaken Fortress in Wind Waker did this reasonably well...

maxresdefault.jpg


* Stealth was forgiving and only within certain sections. (in some parts, you could hit enemies with those deku sticks)
* There was no instant fail state, but rather, you were sent to prison and could just escape.
* Coming back here in the game at a later point felt pretty rewarding

But beyond that, i don't think there's any game that handled this trope well.

IIRC, don't most people who play this game hate this portion?
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
If the game is built around stealth being a valid playstyle, sure. If it isn't then I will probably not enjoy it.
 

azfaru

Banned
Dec 1, 2017
2,275
YES! I legit kinda love it. Metroid does this doesn't it? I dunno. And a lot of sequels do it too. I dunno. It feels satisfying to build up your character
 

Minions

Member
Oct 25, 2017
444
The last dungeon of Final Fantasy 8 does this. You have to beat bosses to unlock a single part of the battle system of your choice. I think it worked well enough in that game, and made you decide what was most important.
 

Homura

â–˛ Legend â–˛
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Aug 20, 2019
6,160
Eventide Island (Breath of the Wild) is one of the best examples of this.
 

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,539
California
The original Metal Gear Solid did this pretty well, but you didn't have to go very far to find your stuff.
I intended to mention Metal Gear Solid, as well, but I'd completely forgotten about the part you're referring to. I was going to mention the nuclear warhead storage building, in which you're barred from using most weapons as a safety precaution. I was kind of curious as to how people felt about stuff like that.
 

Soundchaser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,619
I didn't mind this trope in the original Deus Ex, it worked well enough and made sense in the context.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,927
Yes, I generally like challenges that are based on limited equipment. Especially in stealth games. The ultimate challenge is always to use no tools at all and I like it when the game tests you every now and then.
 
Aug 10, 2019
2,053
I intended to mention Metal Gear Solid, as well, but I'd completely forgotten about the part you're referring to. I was going to mention the nuclear warhead storage building, in which you're barred from using most weapons as a safety precaution. I was kind of curious as to how people felt about stuff like that.
That part is annoying, but adds a layer of challenge that makes sense within the context of the game.

For those who don't know, I was referring to your capture and torture. You need to get out of the jail cell but your stuff is a few rooms away.