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oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,073
UK
If they did that the negative PR would be many orders of magnitude greater than even what they've already experienced with EGS.

The negative PR has been pretty great so far already

I think they'll up it because if it's unsustainable, then it's unsustainable, so their options are give up on PC gaming or increase their take

I think they're so invested at this point, if they decide they need to up their take, they will

I think most of their approach so far has been ultra aggressive to gain market share at pace, if they can get a foothold in the market and people are used to using their store for a few years they can probably change the way they're operating, which hopefully means no more money hatting, and more investing in their own games, but it will probably also mean asking for a bigger cut
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,512
There's one component of this that strikes me as incredibly hard to quantify, but is possibly an important factor that may not be being taken into account: Valve have mentioned in the past, IIRC, that opening up the store to new regions in general (and I think the specific example cited was Russia?) led to a significant increase in legitimate sales, despite that idea going against the prevailing wisdom at the time; turns out people will buy games if they are realistically able to, even in places perceived to be piracy hotbeds.

I wonder what proportion of sales are missed out on by not catering to that audience, and whether that in turn could lead to more significant piracy for those titles.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,139
There's one component of this that strikes me as incredibly hard to quantify, but is possibly an important factor that may not be being taken into account: Valve have mentioned in the past, IIRC, that opening up the store to new regions in general (and I think the specific example cited was Russia?) led to a significant increase in legitimate sales, despite that idea going against the prevailing wisdom at the time; turns out people will buy games if they are realistically able to, even in places perceived to be piracy hotbeds.

I wonder what proportion of sales are missed out on by not catering to that audience, and whether that in turn could lead to more significant piracy for those titles.
Yep.

Reality is, that there is no such thing as an Epic store exclusive. It's Epic store + torrent sites.

Valve/Steam have done a great deal of work to curb piracy, and by removing games from Steam, much of that work is undone.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,104
Yep.

Reality is, that there is no such thing as an Epic store exclusive. It's Epic store + torrent sites.

Valve/Steam have done a great deal of work to curb piracy, and by removing games from Steam, much of that work is undone.
I would say the issue is not removing the games from Steam but rather providing a service that is not good enough in those regions.
Piracy is a service issue, as games are more expensive / harder to obtain due to lack of payment methods AND the added value of having the legit game in the launcher is not significant (added stuff like achivements, cloud saves, easy mod support, etc.).

If EGS were on par, the risk of piracy would be minimized.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,721
Epic are just passing costs onto the consumer.

Something has to give when they're offering such a tremendous deal to developers.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,139
I would say the issue is not removing the games from Steam but rather providing a service that is not good enough in those regions.
Piracy is a service issue, as games are more expensive / harder to obtain due to lack of payment methods AND the added value of having the legit game in the launcher is not significant (added stuff like achivements, cloud saves, easy mod support, etc.).

If EGS were on par, the risk of piracy would be minimized.
I don't think EGS can be on par this quickly. Part of what Steam offers at this point is over fifteen years of trusted service.

But yeah EGS is significantly lacking even with regard to basic features as it stands today.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,512
I mean, if you consider that with the worsening landscape of the industry, the dropping revenue for big titles, the collapsing AAA bubble, etc, PC gaming as a whole has long been said to be basically standing on the precipice of disaster - then yes, EGS may well be a step forward for it.

I think that there's an audience in favour of EGS who are doing so all due to the AAA bubble; Epic are angling for big AAAs supplemented by high-profile indies and increasing the revenue-per-unit equation by lowering their cut. All the talk about it being necessary - I suspect it's only necessary to support that bubble. I don't think indies and smaller titles are on quite the same knife-edge of needing the same sort of profitability to be justifiable ventures (although sure, reliable income is still reliable income).

But PC gaming as a whole on the precipice of disaster? I don't particularly see it, is there some research into the issue I'm not aware of?
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,402
I only mention that because it seems people think Valve gets nothing out of it. I wish more PC games were available on other stores than Steam, but they are comfortable with only offering a Steam version, and Steam only is better than nothing for sure. Hopefully in the future they will put their games on steam + other stores by default.


The problem is such a thing is difficult for many reasons:
1- Other backend either dont want (Uplay/GOG) or just plenty sucks (Origin/Epic).
2- Games are on other stores. You're just nitpicking it uses Steam as a backend. Don't you also want to complain about Xinput ? DirectX/Vulkan ?

Also, maintaining PC games for multiple launchers can be a pain: Ask any dev having their game on Steam + GOG. It also leads to fragmentation for multiplayer.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,909
But PC gaming as a whole on the precipice of disaster? I don't particularly see it, is there some research into the issue I'm not aware of?
There are some scenarios of what might happen if Epic succeeds. It basically boils down that the free open PC platform won't exist anymore and 3rd party shops will have to go close down, small developers will go more often out of business and the consumers got less rights than now. Instead of having free choice you might end up having to choose between 2 or 3 of the big players and everything smaller might be wiped out at some point.

Another potential huge issue is that we can already see the return of huge piracy numbers due to the EGS exclusive titles.

Turns out that piracy might really be a service problem. Talking about EPIC and piracy: 10 years ago EPIC rage-quitted the PC gaming because of piracy and stated that PC players will be left with Facebook games because it's not worth to develop real games for that platform anymore due to the piracy. Turns out that Facebook didn't become the "Saviour" of PC gaming and Epic is now trying to attack some other company and by doing so: bringing back piracy.
 

Resiverence

Member
Jan 30, 2019
517
In the long run as epic implements more into their backend that needs maintaining and the costs to consumers keep piling up, I don't see the 12% cut lasting too long
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,512
There are some scenarios of what might happen if Epic succeeds. It basically boils down that the free open PC platform won't exist anymore and 3rd party shops will have to go close down, small developers will go more often out of business and the consumers got less rights than now. Instead of having free choice you might end up having to choose between 2 or 3 of the big players and everything smaller might be wiped out at some point.

Another potential huge issue is that we can already see the return of huge piracy numbers due to the EGS exclusive titles.

Turns out that piracy might really be a service problem. Talking about EPIC and piracy: 10 years ago EPIC rage-quitted the PC gaming because of piracy and stated that PC players will be left with Facebook games because it's not worth to develop real games for that platform anymore due to the piracy. Turns out that Facebook didn't become the "Saviour" of PC gaming and Epic is now trying to attack some other company and by doing so: bringing back piracy.

The post I was replying to suggested that EGS could be the remedy for PC gaming being on the precipice of disaster, not the cause of it! I was curious what they'd seen that suggested it was in such a bad position (It's certainly imperfect in a few ways, I'll concede, but 'precipice of disaster' is rather more charged rhetoric that suggests somewhat more)
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,512
No. In this case, I wouldn't support it. For the USA where I live though, I think it is great for the consumer to pay the vendor fee. I support it so more money can go to the developer. They deserve more. Also, then consumers would vote for their wallets and choose the less expensive payment vendor fee. Maybe this would even make companies lower the process fee after awhile.

It'd be interesting to see the breakdown on Steam of revenue per country and per vendor, see what's prevalent where, and what the average vendor fee is per region. I suspect that the vendor fee is comparatively negligible in the US anyway, which rather defeats the point of the criticism - Epic are taking those vendors, after all - but that is entirely based on supposition and not necessarily facts.
 
Oct 26, 2017
794
What does the title have to do with the content of the OP? That's some prime example of clickbait.
Because it shows that Epic is able to give 88% to the devs in part because they're lacking features that cost a boatload of money. With the 88/12 split they are unable to offer other forms of payment than credit cards.

It's further proof that Valve's 30% isn't as unreasonable as most seem to think.

It's not clickbait.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,402
What does the title have to do with the content of the OP? That's some prime example of clickbait.


It highlights that the 12% cut isn't sustainable for what we're getting today.
Of course, none of this matter to privileged people. That's why a lot of the complaints are often coming from UK/US writers or western devs. Because they are highly privileged. Your average writer from PCGamer or Kotaku claiming "it's just another launcher" "it's a better deal for devs which matter the most" are privileged people either because they don't need to pay for their games most of the time, because they pay in dollars/pounds, because they live in USA/UK and because they don't suffer from accessibility issues.
These privileged people who just sum up issues as "just another launcher" "it's just QoL" people from "3rd world" countries can have: Troubles to access a credit card, regional prices or even people with accessibility issues can have and in which stuff like Steam Input can bring for them. Because yeah, who cares about Steam wallet cards ? Cant they just have a credit card ? And in any case cant they just use another payment option and take a 10 to 20% processing fee on them ?
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
The post I was replying to suggested that EGS could be the remedy for PC gaming being on the precipice of disaster, not the cause of it! I was curious what they'd seen that suggested it was in such a bad position (It's certainly imperfect in a few ways, I'll concede, but 'precipice of disaster' is rather more charged rhetoric that suggests somewhat more)
My exact wording was "standing on the precipice of disaster", and then taking the "step forward" that EGS represents. I wondered if "standing on the edge of a cliff" was more appropriate, but I couldn't wrangle the phrasing into a sentence that made sense to me.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
Epic are just passing costs onto the consumer.

Something has to give when they're offering such a tremendous deal to developers.

Exactly:

Just had notification from cdkeys that my preorder for World War Z has been cancelled due to Epic refusing to hand out keys to resellers. Paid £19.99 a while back. Goes for £31.99 on the Epic Store. Great stuff!

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ep...-actively-hurt-the-market.96268/post-19673606
 

Nostradamus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,280
Could you elaborate how the title is misleading? I don't understand why it would be clickbait based on the content of the OP.
The title is about the 12% cut that Epic is collecting from developers and everybody is aware of. The OP then goes and does an analysis about alternative payment methods and how much Epic is charging the customers. How exactly are these two things connected? These are completely different topics. I guess the OP wants us to do a HUGE logical jump and compare how Epic treats developers vs consumers but from what I understand, Epic never really hid the fact that they put developers first.

The subject of excessive fees that are passed to consumers is very important but I just don't agree with the way the subject is introduced. I don't understand why the title doesn't change to sth relevant to the subject of the discussion.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,512
My exact wording was "standing on the precipice of disaster", and then taking the "step forward" that EGS represents. I wondered if "standing on the edge of a cliff" was more appropriate, but I couldn't wrangle the phrasing into a sentence that made sense to me.

Gah, completely missed the overtones! My mistake.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,512
It highlights that the 12% cut isn't sustainable for what we're getting today.
Of course, none of this matter to privileged people. That's why a lot of the complaints are often coming from UK/US writers or western devs. Because they are highly privileged. Your average writer from PCGamer or Kotaku claiming "it's just another launcher" "it's a better deal for devs which matter the most" are privileged people either because they don't need to pay for their games most of the time, because they pay in dollars/pounds, because they live in USA/UK and because they don't suffer from accessibility issues.
These privileged people who just sum up issues as "just another launcher" "it's just QoL" people from "3rd world" countries can have: Troubles to access a credit card, regional prices or even people with accessibility issues can have and in which stuff like Steam Input can bring for them. Because yeah, who cares about Steam wallet cards ? Cant they just have a credit card ? And in any case cant they just use another payment option and take a 10 to 20% processing fee on them ?

It does feel a little - and I stress this is only very loosely so, both companies are hugely capitalistic, absolutely in this for their own profitability, and we're taking purely about luxury items, not necessities - like we're looking at a clash of right-wing and left-wing philosophies. The Steam 'government' believe the industry will prosper most with a broader tent, ask for higher 'taxes' in general from companies to support making that tent as broad and convenient as possible, and to take much of the overheads of releasing a game such as payment methods and communication with your audience on themselves; conversely, the Epic 'government' believe that the industry will prosper more through reducing 'taxes' on the highest-profile companies; necessarily this means offering the best benefits to a smaller audience, with the poorer minority of their potential audience not being subsidised at all. Their government offers much less in terms of structural support as a result, but the lower taxes offset that a bit.

This garbled metaphor is probably a sign that I really, really ought to go to bed.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
What country and what payment method if I may ask?
Brazil. Here steam transaction are managed by BoaCompra. BoaCompra charges when you use boletos, that are barcode given by banks that you can pay with real money, and it's the main form of payment in the country. From what I remember, other payment methods also charges fee that can be as high as 10%. Not a insignificant amount.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,104
The title is about the 12% cut that Epic is collecting from developers and everybody is aware of. The OP then goes and does an analysis about alternative payment methods and how much Epic is charging the customers. How exactly are these two things connected? These are completely different topics. I guess the OP wants us to do a HUGE logical jump and compare how Epic treats developers vs consumers but from what I understand, Epic never really hid the fact that they put developers first.

The subject of excessive fees that are passed to consumers is very important but I just don't agree with the way the subject is introduced. I don't understand why the title doesn't change to sth relevant to the subject of the discussion.
It is not different topics:
Vendors use the income they get from their cut to cover for the service requirements: that includes servers (to download games), maintainance, and transaction costs (among other things). The 12% cut Epic is taken is low enough that for most of their payment methods they are unable to cover the transaction costs (which are in most of the e-commerce) and shift that cost to the consumer. That would mean that for certain players, mostly in low income areas, the game will be more expensive as they would need to pay an extra for the transaction costs.
Them shifting the cost of part of the service into the customers without affecting the "base" price of the game IS A WAY OF INCREASING THE CUT THEY TAKE. It also is an example as you said of how the shop focus is not on the end customer (who is the one that will have to put the money into the system) but on the developer.

Put it like this: a game is 30$, and the payment method makes it so that the consumer has to pay 8% extra, making the game effectively for the customer 32.8.
The 12% cut is only from the 30$ (so 3.6$) but added to the "extra cost from the transaction" (2.8$) Epic actually took 6.4$ (so 19.5% cut from the 32.8$). (Yes, you need to count the card fees into the Epic cut as normal e-bussiness cover them).

There is also the trouble of the added charges from a payment method actually will de-incentivize the buyer to buy from that store as they would feel like they are getting ripped off and that you are making the poorest region pay more for the service.
 
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Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
There are some scenarios of what might happen if Epic succeeds. It basically boils down that the free open PC platform won't exist anymore and 3rd party shops will have to go close down, small developers will go more often out of business and the consumers got less rights than now. Instead of having free choice you might end up having to choose between 2 or 3 of the big players and everything smaller might be wiped out at some point.

Another potential huge issue is that we can already see the return of huge piracy numbers due to the EGS exclusive titles.

Turns out that piracy might really be a service problem. Talking about EPIC and piracy: 10 years ago EPIC rage-quitted the PC gaming because of piracy and stated that PC players will be left with Facebook games because it's not worth to develop real games for that platform anymore due to the piracy. Turns out that Facebook didn't become the "Saviour" of PC gaming and Epic is now trying to attack some other company and by doing so: bringing back piracy.

This is the primary concern for me. The fact that from day 1 their store started out by using anticompetitive exclusivity tactics and shows no signs of supporting an open market makes the idea of them growing into a major player scary for the future of the industry.

Even if they had 100% feature parity with Steam, the simple fact that they are fully locking out all alternative resellers and storefronts is enough for me to be against them. And no, Humble doesn't count as that's a direct trade agreement, Valve gives keys out for free for devs to sell wherever they want.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
Brazil. Here steam transaction are managed by BoaCompra. BoaCompra charges when you use boletos, that are barcode given by banks that you can pay with real money, and it's the main form of payment in the country. From what I remember, other payment methods also charges fee that can be as high as 10%. Not a insignificant amount.
Is that charged to Steam or BoaCompra? A bit of cursory research says there's taxes applied on top of every transaction, so it might be outside of Steam's ability to remove those. For instance, here in Russia I could pay with Qiwi wallet funds, but putting money onto the Qiwi account also takes something like 7% of the amount, and Steam can do nothing to remove that since it happens outside of their system - generally before any Steam transaction can even take place. Steam only eats transaction fees themselves, like what happens with currency exchange and inter-bank transfer, it's not ideal but kind of unreasonable to expect Steam to be able to fix.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
Is that charged to Steam or BoaCompra? A bit of cursory research says there's taxes applied on top of every transaction, so it might be outside of Steam's ability to remove those. For instance, here in Russia I could pay with Qiwi wallet funds, but putting money onto the Qiwi account also takes something like 7% of the amount, and Steam can do nothing to remove that since it happens outside of their system - generally before any Steam transaction can even take place. Steam only eats transaction fees themselves, like what happens with currency exchange and inter-bank transfer, it's not ideal but kind of unreasonable to expect Steam to be able to fix.
Charged by BoaCompra. When I try to add 10r$ in steam using boleto, I'm redirected to a site that presents me with a 11r$ barcode. It's not that I expect valve to eat up, is that there is no difference for me to buy on steam or epic at the end of the day. It's only different for the dev.
 

Stone Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,601
Is that charged to Steam or BoaCompra? A bit of cursory research says there's taxes applied on top of every transaction, so it might be outside of Steam's ability to remove those. For instance, here in Russia I could pay with Qiwi wallet funds, but putting money onto the Qiwi account also takes something like 7% of the amount, and Steam can do nothing to remove that since it happens outside of their system - generally before any Steam transaction can even take place. Steam only eats transaction fees themselves, like what happens with currency exchange and inter-bank transfer, it's not ideal but kind of unreasonable to expect Steam to be able to fix.
The boleto fee is a flat R$1,50 regardless of the transaction amount. A R$10 boleto will cost 11,50 and a 200 one will cost 201,50. And if I recall correctly its not supposed to be a transaction fee but a bank operational fee.

BoaCompra does not charge extra if you pay with a local CC, unless you want to pay in installments (being able to split purchases is huge around here) in which case there's a bit of interest depending on how much the transaction is split. You can usually pay in 4 installments without extra cost, while dividing it in 12 installments increases the final price by about 15%, which is pretty fair considering you're going to be paying peanuts every month.

Charged by BoaCompra. When I try to add 10r$ in steam using boleto, I'm redirected to a site that presents me with a 11r$ barcode. It's not that I expect valve to eat up, is that there is no difference for me to buy on steam or epic at the end of the day. It's only different for the dev.
A flat R$1,50 fee is gonna be much lower than the 7% on IOF unless you're buying extremely cheap games.
 
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Veliladon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,561
It highlights that the 12% cut isn't sustainable for what we're getting today.
Of course, none of this matter to privileged people. That's why a lot of the complaints are often coming from UK/US writers or western devs. Because they are highly privileged. Your average writer from PCGamer or Kotaku claiming "it's just another launcher" "it's a better deal for devs which matter the most" are privileged people either because they don't need to pay for their games most of the time, because they pay in dollars/pounds, because they live in USA/UK and because they don't suffer from accessibility issues.
These privileged people who just sum up issues as "just another launcher" "it's just QoL" people from "3rd world" countries can have: Troubles to access a credit card, regional prices or even people with accessibility issues can have and in which stuff like Steam Input can bring for them. Because yeah, who cares about Steam wallet cards ? Cant they just have a credit card ? And in any case cant they just use another payment option and take a 10 to 20% processing fee on them ?

Exactly. Not to mention Epic is cherry picking markets and basically straight up fucking people in markets where EGS isn't available, Linux users etc. All of a sudden they lose digital distribution entirely.
 
Last edited:

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
Is there any word on how well any of these exclusives have sold so far?

Not really. Epic said that Metro Exodus sold 2.5x better than Metro LL during the launch weeks. But this probably includes the pre-orders on Steam, retail versions and keys from sites like cdkeys so it's not telling us anything.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,530
Not really. Epic said that Metro Exodus sold 2.5x better than Metro LL during the launch weeks. But this probably includes the pre-orders on Steam, retail versions and keys from sites like cdkeys.
Non redux last light sold 20k, so exodus sold like shit. If they meant LL redux they would have said so.
 

Veliladon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,561
Wasn't there a dev saying the amount of money Epic was giving out was enough to offset garbage sales? Like seven figure deals?
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
Non redux last light sold 20k

Do you have a source for this?

But yeah, they were only talking about the non redux version and only in the release period.

Edit: according to GI.BIZ, LL sold 3 times better than the first Metro game on PC during the 1st week:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...-week-sales-surpass-2033-lifetime-sales-in-us

Edit 2: According to SteamCharts and SteamDB, LL had a peak number of 16.650 during the launch week:

https://steamcharts.com/app/43160

This indicated that sales are higher than 20k, but it must still be less than 100k. So I'd say Metro Exodus sold less than 250k, and this is Steam pre-orders + retail + 3rd party keys. Remember how Metro Exodus was the best selling game on Steam when the exclusivity was announced?


Wasn't there a dev saying the amount of money Epic was giving out was enough to offset garbage sales? Like seven figure deals?

The Phoenix Point devs said that they would still be in black numbers when all backers requested a refund. So yes, Epic is throwing millions to devs and publishers for exclusivity.
 
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Stone Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,601
Wasn't there a dev saying the amount of money Epic was giving out was enough to offset garbage sales? Like seven figure deals?
I only recall the Phoenix Point devs saying the money they got was enough to refund all of the funding they got and still be in the black, which was something along the lines of 2 mi USD.
 

Deleted member 28474

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,162

Arkanius

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,144
Do you have a source for this?

But yeah, they were only talking about the non redux version and only in the release period.

Edit: according to GI.BIZ, LL sold 3 times better than the first Metro game on PC during the 1st week:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...-week-sales-surpass-2033-lifetime-sales-in-us




The Phoenix Point devs said that they would still be in black numbers when all backers requested a refund. So yes, Epic is throwing millions to devs and publishers for exclusivity.

SteamSpy (Ironic as fuck)

https://steamspy.com/app/43160

Owners: 0 - 20k
 

Dinjoralo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,212
The negative PR has been pretty great so far already

I think they'll up it because if it's unsustainable, then it's unsustainable, so their options are give up on PC gaming or increase their take

I think they're so invested at this point, if they decide they need to up their take, they will

I think most of their approach so far has been ultra aggressive to gain market share at pace, if they can get a foothold in the market and people are used to using their store for a few years they can probably change the way they're operating, which hopefully means no more money hatting, and more investing in their own games, but it will probably also mean asking for a bigger cut
The store isn't going to exist in it's current form for more than two years, tops. I'm calling it now. It'll either fizzle out, or get big enough then bump up the cut.
Another potential huge issue is that we can already see the return of huge piracy numbers due to the EGS exclusive titles.

Turns out that piracy might really be a service problem. Talking about EPIC and piracy: 10 years ago EPIC rage-quitted the PC gaming because of piracy and stated that PC players will be left with Facebook games because it's not worth to develop real games for that platform anymore due to the piracy. Turns out that Facebook didn't become the "Saviour" of PC gaming and Epic is now trying to attack some other company and by doing so: bringing back piracy.
I'm genuinely surprised that Epic is pushing so many people to piracy. Even Denuvo hasn't done that to the scale, and more importantly, level of acceptance that I've seen online. The sheer vitirol for the store is insane. I don't know how it's going to get a foothold when it keeps generating so much backlash.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
SteamSpy (Ironic as fuck)

https://steamspy.com/app/43160

Owners: 0 - 20k

Nah, that can't be right. No way LL sold only 20k in it's lifetime. Copy-paste from my previous post:

According to GI.BIZ, LL sold 3 times better than the first Metro game on PC during the 1st week:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...-week-sales-surpass-2033-lifetime-sales-in-us

According to SteamCharts and SteamDB, LL had a peak number of 16.650 during the launch week:

https://steamcharts.com/app/43160

This indicated that sales are higher than 20k, but probably less than 100k. So I'd say Metro Exodus sold less than 250k, and this is Steam pre-orders + retail + 3rd party keys. Remember how Metro Exodus was the best selling game on Steam when the exclusivity was announced?
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,661
[
There are some scenarios of what might happen if Epic succeeds. It basically boils down that the free open PC platform won't exist anymore and 3rd party shops will have to go close down, small developers will go more often out of business and the consumers got less rights than now. Instead of having free choice you might end up having to choose between 2 or 3 of the big players and everything smaller might be wiped out at some point.

Another potential huge issue is that we can already see the return of huge piracy numbers due to the EGS exclusive titles.

Turns out that piracy might really be a service problem. Talking about EPIC and piracy: 10 years ago EPIC rage-quitted the PC gaming because of piracy and stated that PC players will be left with Facebook games because it's not worth to develop real games for that platform anymore due to the piracy. Turns out that Facebook didn't become the "Saviour" of PC gaming and Epic is now trying to attack some other company and by doing so: bringing back piracy.
This is absurd. Piracy won't be "back" yes it's a service issue but there's nothing that says Epic is not going to make the actual transaction process any easier. If people still pirate after that then it's clearly not a service issue and a steam attachment issue.

And no Epic didn't "rage quit PC gaming" 10 years ago. People just like to say it cause they believe whatever they hear. The only person who ever commented on PC gaming from Epic was Cliff Blezinski...he did not represent Epic as a whole. You know what Epic did last gen? It made UE3 which alone did a lot more for gaming that any other corporation out there during a time when engine development was causing game development issue. And guess where UE3 shined the most? PC.

The reason Gears never made it to PC from Gears 2 onwards is not because Epic "rage quit PC gaming" but because of their partnership with MS (which goes all the way back to pre Xbox 360 launch before Cliff ever made that piracy comment, since Epic is the reason Xbox 360 ended up with 512MB of unified RAM). The only other games Epic launched apart from Gears last gen were Bulletstorm and UT3...both of which made their way to PC.

So I'm gonna ask this question....how exactly did Epic "abandon" PC gaming 10 years ago?
 

Doomguy Fieri

Member
Nov 3, 2017
5,289
Hard to get too worked up over not accepting some weird bitcoin exchanges or whatever, but Paypal? It's ubiquitous.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
The store isn't going to exist in it's current form for more than two years, tops. I'm calling it now. It'll either fizzle out, or get big enough then bump up the cut.

I'm genuinely surprised that Epic is pushing so many people to piracy. Even Denuvo hasn't done that to the scale, and more importantly, level of acceptance that I've seen online. The sheer vitirol for the store is insane. I don't know how it's going to get a foothold when it keeps generating so much backlash.

Epic is either pricing out or completely locking out the biggest regions that had lots of piracy, places like russia and china. china especially since EGS is completely lock out there because apparently Tencent doesn't want them to compete with their own game store WeGames.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
Piracy won't be "back" yes it's a service issue but there's nothing that says Epic is not going to make the actual transaction process any easier. If people still pirate after that then it's clearly not a service issue and a steam attachment issue.

Yeah, it's definitely Steam loyalty. It has nothing to do with the fact that Epic's Store isn't available in China, or that people have to pay up to 50% more for their games because Epic boycotts 3rd party keystores (except for Humble who always charges MSRP at release).
 

Zophop

Member
Apr 12, 2018
169
[
This is absurd. Piracy won't be "back" yes it's a service issue but there's nothing that says Epic is not going to make the actual transaction process any easier. If people still pirate after that then it's clearly not a service issue and a steam attachment issue.

And no Epic didn't "rage quit PC gaming" 10 years ago. People just like to say it cause they believe whatever they hear. The only person who ever commented on PC gaming from Epic was Cliff Blezinski...he did not represent Epic as a whole. You know what Epic did last gen? It made UE3 which alone did a lot more for gaming that any other corporation out there during a time when engine development was causing game development issue. And guess where UE3 shined the most? PC.

The reason Gears never made it to PC from Gears 2 onwards is not because Epic "rage quit PC gaming" but because of their partnership with MS (which goes all the way back to pre Xbox 360 launch before Cliff ever made that piracy comment, since Epic is the reason Xbox 360 ended up with 512MB of unified RAM). The only other games Epic launched apart from Gears last gen were Bulletstorm and UT3...both of which made their way to PC.

So I'm gonna ask this question....how exactly did Epic "abandon" PC gaming 10 years ago?

"That whole era ended as PC piracy impacted the market and made single-player campaign games impossible," he says. "We estimated at one point that, for every game we sold, four copies were pirated."

And so Epic shifted again, this time to the console market with the help of Microsoft and an exclusive publishing deal. Gears of War started out as a tremendous success for everyone involved, Sweeney says."

https://www.polygon.com/a/epic-4-0/the-four-lives-of-epic-games
 

Dinjoralo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,212
Epic is either pricing out or completely locking out the biggest regions that had lots of piracy, places like russia and china. china especially since EGS is completely lock out there because apparently Tencent doesn't want them to compete with their own game store WeGames.
Wait, is EGS not priced correctly in Russia? Despite one of the key guys behind the store being Russian and likely following Steam enough to know how Steam made itself a success there? What?
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
Big point that Epic is using for pushing their Store (beside exclusives) is 12%/88% split. That really is amazing and it is great for developers.

I think we should be more realistic and admit the 12/88 split helps publishers more than developers. When publishers started opening their own stores/distribution platforms we were, at first, promises that the savings they made by not having split revenue would be passed down to us, but they weren't, in any case. I might be speculating but I doubt that having 100% of the money go to the publishers helped developers a lot either, I think it just improved the publisher's bottom line.

I think it just sounds a lot nicer for a publisher to say "This will help developers!" instead of "This will improve our bottom-line and the CEO will be able to buy that new Bugatti!"
 

datschge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
623
I would say the issue is not removing the games from Steam but rather providing a service that is not good enough in those regions.
Piracy is a service issue, as games are more expensive / harder to obtain due to lack of payment methods AND the added value of having the legit game in the launcher is not significant (added stuff like achivements, cloud saves, easy mod support, etc.).

If EGS were on par, the risk of piracy would be minimized.
Aside the store itself not being as feature rich as Steam there are several issues at once:
- With the 30% in-store cut Steam offers the care-free route, neither consumers nor developers/publishers need to be conscious of additional fees. Within Steam the in-store price is what it is.
- EGS on the other hand with its 12% ensured that they will never be able/willing to expand the reach to any ways of payments that make the cut financially unfeasible. To not limit the audience developers/publishers would need to keep additional fees in mind and price their games accordingly. Consumers need to keep additional fees in mind while browsing the EGS to not be surprised by them later on. Third party sellers of keys and store credits also want their cuts etc.
- EGS is plainly not available and actively blocked in specific regions at all (like China). This means games exclusive to EGS essentially don't exist there except through piracy means.
- All this combined means EGS is limiting the exposure exclusive games will ever get, whole regions are excluded, for the remainder the costs are higher, and the diverse channels that could/would promote the game are excluded as well. It's EGS or nothing.

So in the current state (especially the insistence on the 12% cut, and that being financially feasible) EGS can never truly be on par with Steam, neither for consumers nor the developers/publishers.
 
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Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
I think we should be more realistic and admit the 12/88 split helps publishers more than developers. When publishers started opening their own stores/distribution platforms we were, at first, promises that the savings they made by not having split revenue would be passed down to us, but they weren't, in any case. I might be speculating but I doubt that having 100% of the money go to the publishers helped developers a lot either, I think it just improved the publisher's bottom line.

I think it just sounds a lot nicer for a publisher to say "This will help developers!" instead of "This will improve our bottom-line and the CEO will be able to buy that new Bugatti!"

Be lovely if anyone in the gaming press would even make a mention of this side to the story.

But no... they like painting out the skewed picture that Epic Game Store is exclusively self published indie developers that are one bad game from shutting down the shop.

Just one gaming journalist covering this on the consumer's side as a Pro Publisher deal would be nice. Or even the added level of complexity that Epic has a high standard for indie game developers which could bar many that would benefit the most from their cut.
 
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