ArmsofSleep

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,833
Washington DC
I agree with this but more because lovecraftian cosmic horror is really played out, not because of him being mega super racist.

I mean seriously how many more bad monologues aping his style do I have to read in indie horro games.
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
It's not like Lovecraftian horror is the brainchild of Lovecraft alone. A lot of it came from him and it's normal it bears its name, but condemning the entire genre because of him disregards everyone else that helped build the mythos. I don't think anyone would remember Cthulhu and his friends if not for Derleth, not to mention the rest of their group.
Centering all on HP is really narrowing the scope of one's view to focus on what one hates and disregard absolutely everything and everyone else.
 

1000% H

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,639
Does he really have a monopoly on a sub genre? If he does then I stand by what I say, don't be a fan. Don't normalize It, don't make it popular, don't win him any fans. Hateful people don't deserve it and maybe the people that make Dusk should find inspiration from a better individual.
I think you're greatly underestimating how revelatory and broad something like genre is. Refusing to engage with a genre is refusing to give relevant subjects any creative or critical thought. Cosmic horror, fear of the unknown, knowledge beyond comprehension, loss of control over yourself. Lovecraft wasn't the first person to think about these concepts, but the way he expressed, interpreted, and explored these ideas is what's novel. Since Lovecraft is the primary progenitor, you simply cannot create a new work without his influence. You are suggesting that people permanently close their minds forever.

By saying no one should engage with something like cosmic horror, that is granting all real estate to Lovecraft himself as the one true authority on the subject, and disallowing new (potentially better) ideas from entering the sphere.

The sad fact of reality is that Lovecraft created what he did because he was racist, because he was xenophobic, because he had a rough relationship with mental illness, and a myriad of other terrible influences. This brand of horror and paranoia does not sprout from a happy, healthy, well-adjusted individual. But now the ideas are out there, for everybody to see and read, and now happy, healthy, well-adjusted individuals of varying degrees can take these concepts and mold them into a variety of non-racist, non-xenophobic interpretations.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,730
I don't know how you can dissociate cosmic horror with Lovecraftian horror tbh. What cosmic horror exists that isn't also "Lovecraftian"? I see these two words as synonymous.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
In summary, the argument is "depiction of anything vaguely influenced by Lovecraft = endorsement of all of Lovecraft's views and racism", which, as with all the other "depiction = endorsement" arguments, does strike me as an extremely difficult argument to demonstrate, much less prove.
 

TheCthultist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,460
New York
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-10-09-games-really-need-to-fall-out-of-love-with-lovecraft


I've personally never read any Lovecraft, but never felt any hate coming from the tropes that I experienced in other stories that used them. Should the tropes be abandoned because of their origin?
You should definitely read some Lovecraft.
The man was ridiculously racist, even for his time, but his works are some of the best cosmic horror you'll ever see with some of the most pretentiously overwritten sentences ever. The stories are fantastic and influenced a good bit of what you'll see done today in terms of cosmic/eldritch horror.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,709
I don't know how you can dissociate cosmic horror with Lovecraftian horror tbh. What cosmic horror exists that isn't also "Lovecraftian"? I see these two words as synonymous.
Lovecraftian horror tends to specially revolve the kinds of imagery and creatures seen in Lovecraft's stories while cosmic horror tends to be existential dread not about specific evils like old ones or cults and other Lovecraftian conventions but the fabric of reality and self being revealed to be a barely-understood illusion. Like being trapped in a field of grass that suddenly has no end and where space and sound doesn't obey the laws of physics

Cosmic horror would just be that field just existing and those trapped trying to understand it as they attempt to escape and slowly go insane

Lovecraftian horror would be revealing that the field is grown over on the ancient sacrificial grounds to the old one that used to be worshipped there and now draws new victims to it while it slumbers
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,486
Conversely, sometimes "thing you don't like" still has a redeeming quaility or two.

Sure. Doesn't really change my point about nuance.

Can we look at this works, at certain ideas of his in isolation, or, interestingly, in conjunction with his character defects?

Again, sure, but I'm also going to ask people if they considered the things they borrow or just lifted them without thought. If you say, "I combed over this theme or idea, and I really think I've pulled from it in a respectful way that leaves behind any harmful message" then I'm certainly going to be happy with that discussion.

The issue for me is a lot of stuff (not just gaming) lifts from shit without a care in the world, which is how you get redemption arcs for people that look like Nazis:
tumblr_inline_odkg58yGyn1sg3o5d_540.png

Birds aren't racist or problematic. Numbers aren't, nor are skulls, or the color black, or certain poses for birds, etc.... But in aggregate, I think this was a pretty poor move by the author for what he intended for these characters. "Wouldn't it be neat if they looked like Nazis" is an idea that wasn't given care at all, at least as evidenced by the work itself.

Creative works are always open to critique. That's the point. And my critique of works that sample from harmful shit is "I wonder if they know or care about the history of these things" usually followed by the disappointing conclusion that "No, they never had to consider other perspectives at all." In the above example, I find it unlikely that the author (Oda, a lifelong Japanese guy, which isn't a country with a lot of people in it affected by the Nazi campaign specifically) ever thought about how people would react to that imagery. He thought it looked cool, drew it, and then moved on. That's certainly his right; creatives can make what they want. But it's my right to say that's harmful, that it was a bad idea, and that ultimately the work would've been much better if he had done something else or had properly given these choices some thought.
 

PensivePen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
392
I think this article is well-intentioned but misguided, Lovecraft was a bad person but that does not mean that every idea that sprouted from his head was a bad one and needs to be forever excised from our consciousness. Games like Eternal Darkness and Bloodborne succeed in taking his worthwhile ideas that served as the foundation for the cosmic horror genre and divorcing them from the man's ugly racism, often subverting it in the process.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,787
He was a product of his time in my opinion, you had to be very progressive to not be what we call today racist (refusing to see all men equal, there is just one human race).
I will not read the article, i read the essays where it shows he is clearly of racist upbringing/education.

Let's remember Benjamin Franklin's himself was partial to skin color.


http://www.columbia.edu/~lmg21/ash3002y/earlyac99/documents/observations.html

Wow...the Swedes and the Germans were Swarthy? The only white people and Saxons and English?

This was Benjamin Franklin?
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
17,269
Yeah, but neonomican was admittedly written solely for a paycheck. It makes me feel bad for Jasen burrows, the artist, cuz hes on point but yeah, unless you like the topics of rape and nymphomania being used as plot devices in the WORST (and laziest) possible way, go for it, just be prepared. Neonomican is pure schlock.
O.o
You weren't joking when described it as trash earlier.
You're right, it's best to be warned about it

Oh shit, the king in yellow is referenced highly in Moore's providence. I wasnt even sure it was real.
It is but it's something else alright, far more obtuse than Lovecraft.
 

sschol

Member
Oct 27, 2017
455
I really disagree. Obviously Lovecraft was a bad man and its present in his writing, but there is a lot of wiggle room for an author taking inspiration from his work. It's not like writing derivative work of Lovecraft produces some kind of brain disease via subliminal messaging, at least no more than nearly everything else we take in. Because we (especially us in the west) live in a reactionary place and time, most stories around us will be thematically reactionary. Authors ought to subvert, diversify and surgically target the problems in whatever area of fiction they work in, but if they don't, they're not usually actually doing any worse than nearly anyone else.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,260
There's a specific aesthetic to Lovecraftian horror that other cosmic horror stories don't necessarily have; additionally a lot of what we call 'Lovecraftian' has actually been the result of work by other authors and creators that took up where he left off after his death.
 

Chestbridge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
300
If you want to read a modern writer inspired by Lovecraft, without the racism, try out Thomas Ligotti. The Last Feast of Harlequin is amazing.
 

Aprikurt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,881
Walt Disney was a chauvinist who screwed over his friends. Roald Dahl emotionally abused his daughter. Alfred Hitchcock regularly put his (particularly female) stars through hell. Creative visionaries aren't often the best people. Actually, they're just people.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
Wow...the Swedes and the Germans were Swarthy? The only white people and Saxons and English?

This was Benjamin Franklin?
Yeah, it's nuts. You hear about how Poles, Italians, and Irish weren't considered white, but considering what today's white supremacists think it's hard to believe people thought of Germans and Swedes as "less white." It illustrates how much "whiteness" can change according to a group's needs.
 

-JD-

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,511
At this point there are enough horror contemporaries who have been inspired by the horror of Lovecraft that we don't really need him anymore.

Frankly, writers/artists like Junji Ito should get more attention because their horror is Lovecraft-like cosmic horror and is removed from any troublesome beliefs.

As I type this I worry about potential milkshake duck scenarios involving my favorite writers. lol.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,558
I've never seriously read Lovecraft or had any interest in him, but I think it'll be tough to avoid Lovecraftian themes in particularly dark fantasy games, because Lovecraft's impact on dark, fantasy fiction is so strong, that even if you're not directly inspired by Lovecraft, there's a high likelihood that the writers you were inspired by were inspired by Lovecraft.
 
Dec 6, 2017
11,103
US
Next time Chtulhu calls, maybe don't answer?

Sorry, no dice here. I've been reading Howie's fascinatingly insane tirades, delusions and paranoia for two decades and I thoroughly enjoy reading a warped brain's ululations. He was a total train wreck, but the sense of existential dread and New England darkness present in his work couldn't have come from a well-balanced human.

His bestiary and style of Horror have become so appropriated, for a lack of a better term, in Pop culture, it rarely has much to do with his original stories and themes to begin with. Much less his comically insane racism and xenophobia.
 

misho8723

Member
Jan 7, 2018
3,730
Slovakia
Yeah, I'm not going to give up Lovecraft's work just because he was a racism in a racism time (which isn't to say that him being a racist is/was fine).. his work doesn't promote racism - atleast that work that I've read - it's more the fear of the unknown that is beyond our perception of reality, entities that are basically gods and for them we are nothing more than just annoying bugs or things with no meaning to them or purpose.. that's why I love his work.. I mean, he even wrote a piece that in my opinion was a sympathetic view of a monster from it's own view point .. and can I see or hear which pieces that Lovecraft wrote are hompophobic and misogynist? I did only read some of his work and in those there was not a single point where there was something in that regard.. are those in his other work? I really don't know
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,709
At this point there are enough horror contemporaries who have been inspired by the horror of Lovecraft that we don't really need him anymore.

Frankly, writers/artists like Junji Ito should get more attention because their horror is Lovecraft-like cosmic horror and is removed from any troublesome beliefs.

As I type this I worry about potential milkshake duck scenarios involving my favorite writers. lol.
I think you kind of need to least have some background on Lovecraft to appreciate Ito's work or other modern horror writers that were influenced by him, to understand how writers co-opt, change, alter Lovecraft's themes and imagery to suit new themes and modern concepts (for example Lovecraft Country shifting the traditional Lovecraftian horrors to Jim Crow era and how that reflects on both)

Ito has said that Lovecraft was a major influence on his approach to storytelling and that Lovecraft's descriptions and atmosphere inspired his own creativity.
 

-JD-

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,511
I think you kind of need to least have some background on Lovecraft to appreciate Ito's work or other modern horror writers that were influenced by him, to understand how writers co-opt, change, alter Lovecraft's themes and imagery to suit new themes and modern concepts (for example Lovecraft Country shifting the traditional Lovecraftian horrors to Jim Crow era and how that reflects on both)

Ito has said that Lovecraft was a major influence on his approach to storytelling and that Lovecraft's descriptions and atmosphere inspired his own creativity.

Why do new readers need to be familiar with Lovecraft to appreciate Ito? None of his influences are overt enough to need supplementary understanding of another author's work. Any extra work the reader has to do would be purely for academic and historical purposes.
 

CanisMajoris

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
892
Nah, he was racist pos but his art deserves spotlight and the more cosmic horror games, the better. Actually, I'd love full blown Lovecraftian monster adventure/horror/mystery/action game. Deaths Stranding looks to be the very promising in that regard.
 

jwhit28

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,200
I've become numb to this type of thing. Past a certain date it's just easier to assume every influential person held the same views as Lovecraft and be pleasantly suprised at the few cases where that assumption is wrong.
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
I don't buy this.
Mark Twain was over half century older and he never did produce anything as vile as Lovecraft.
Maybe. Sure, it's possible (even likely) that Lovecraft was more racist than your average American back then, but that doesn't mean he was some huge outlier and that his views were considered outrageous.

It's also likely that Twain was progressive for his time.
 

unapersson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
662
Everyone from Robert Bloch to Stephen King and Neil Gaiman have written Lovecraftian fiction, and that's merely the tip of the iceberg, it's far bigger and wider than when he started it. John Carpenter, Lucio Fulci, Ridley Scott in the movies. Seems strange to abandon the whole thing because of the individual who started it. Lovecraft lived a confused sheltered life, and I doubt if his racism would have survived long in the face of reality, he put science above all and that would have proved him wrong. From what I remember reading of his biography (H.P Lovecraft: A Life) his was a pretty sad existence and he spent a lot of it not far from starvation, his father died from syphilis in an asylum, he was brought up by over protective maiden aunts. It's lucky he didn't grow up a serial killer.

It's perfectly possible to subvert those earlier beliefs he had and still create great cosmic horror stories. Or you can even play it straight. Alien did it. Have strong female characters, realistic human portrayals for people of all races, and face the terror of the unknown together. It would be a real shame to simply throw all that away.
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
I don't know how you can dissociate cosmic horror with Lovecraftian horror tbh. What cosmic horror exists that isn't also "Lovecraftian"? I see these two words as synonymous.
Me too.

Anyway, mainstream contemporary interpretations of his work have managed to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Certainly when it comes to games I can't think of any.
 

Zemst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,101
A bit disappointed of how short this read was. Im on the side of exploring his works further and letting people of color put their spin on it like silvia moreno-garcia said. My point of entry into lovecraft were not by his works but by the inspired takes of others that got me to dig deeper into that type of fiction. As a black man it did hurt to see that one of th people i think of as the greatest creators of a subgenre was so filled with hate. That being said the majority of books and videogames i have played that did take inspiration from his writings did not delve into his hateful racist terrority, and the complete dismissal of lovecraftian works now just because of it's current popularity seems distasteful to me. The "It's boring" side of the argument always striked me as disingenuous dismissal on levels of posting the "i don't like thing" comic to hand wave someone off.

With that said i do think it's important more than ever to inform others that he was someone deeply racist and his views even then were extreme for the norm. A gopd modern-day example would be the SCP foundation which started on what no one could argue can be deemed a racist website 4chan, yet the community has continued and evolved past the filth that once formed it. The same continues to happen with lovecraftian works.
 

TheCthultist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,460
New York
This is virtually the perfect first reply to this thread and it's a travesty I'm not seeing more discussing of it here. This video moved the absolute hell out of me when I first saw it, and, IMO, is a much more nuanced perspective - from someone who is in the path of Lovecraft''s hate - than "abandon cosmic horror as a genre".
I'd like to believe it's just because most people in the thread aren't subscribing to the belief that Lovecraft should be abandoned or cosmic horror should be left behind. I could definitely see the video giving someone who was thinking that way a lot more to think about; but thankfully that doesn't seem to be the majority of people in this thread.
 

Turbo Tu-Tone

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,951
Holy shit at some of the gems of tone deaf idiocy in this thread. I've got a LOT of people to put on ignore. :DDD
 

The Shape

Member
Nov 7, 2017
5,027
Brazil
I personally have never seen any game as racist as Lovecraft's stories (and yes, they're racist AF).

Every game I played inspired by his creations just used the atmosphere, Mythos, and overall aspect of his work. I don't see why they should stop doing that and I'm really looking forward to that Call of Cthulhu game.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,467
I have always felt like a racist worldview is inherent to the works of Lovecraft, even when it's not overt stuff like the name of that cat.

Stories about mysterious cult-like religions and human sacrifices don't come from nowhere. These are abstractions of Shit People Thought About Foreigners in the late 1800s/early 1900s. The Innsmouth story features a man who starts a cult based on a religion from some Polynesians he met. It reads pretty clear to me that a racist would take ignorant ideas about foreign people and turn it into a horror story.

Lovecraft to me is a racist writing racist stuff, but whether Lovecraft books should be burned or not is a completely separate question from whether there are other sci-fi authors, past and present, who deserve some love and exploration in a modern context. The answer to that question is yes! But I imagine a big part of why Lovecraft is so over-utilized is simply because it's in the public domain.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
63,156
Why do new readers need to be familiar with Lovecraft to appreciate Ito? None of his influences are overt enough to need supplementary understanding of another author's work. Any extra work the reader has to do would be purely for academic and historical purposes.

Lovecraft created the Necronomicon. It's pretty hard to try and distance the genre from him entirely when so many of his creations are basically ubiquitous to the genre.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,854
We should abandon everything because a racist has touched it at one point during the process.
I mean, that is your own personal decision. I think a stronger case could be made because he's dead so you aren't really supporting him and there isn't a harmful ideology attached to his work, but you know, there's nothing wrong with saying "I'd rather not indulge things from racists", especially when it's not like some essential thing. I won't eat at chik-fil-a, I won't eat Papa John's, these are easy decisions to make because there are other readily available options.
 

Kapryov

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,201
Australia
Lovecraft got in there quick to stake his claim on the creepy deep sea unknown stuff, but the reason his ideas have resonated so well with people is that he really tapped into that nightmarish feel of the unknown. A deep fear that many of us have always had.
Sure, tentacle monsters and all that are cool too though.

The important thing to remember is that a lot of his works are in the public domain now, money isn't necessary going to go directly back to platforming a racist anymore.
We can technically write stories in his world with a racially diverse cast if we want, what better way to make a racist turn in his grave?
 

HouseDragon

Member
Dec 4, 2017
555
This article is such nonsense. Yes, H.P. Lovecraft was a racist. Yes, some of his work show his worldview. But using that as an argument for games to stop using cosmic horror as their setting is completely unfounded. Some of this gen's best games, like Bloodborne and Darkest Dungeon, use cosmic horror themes to its fullest. They would've been completely different beasts if not for that, and surely for the worse.

I don't think that, by using those themes, those games perpetuate the racism that Lovecraft sadly showed. The hardworking teams behind those games should have the final word on what setting to base their games in, especially if they're not promoting hate and intolerance by doing so.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,467
Lovecraft got in there quick to stake his claim on the creepy deep sea unknown stuff, but the reason his ideas have resonated so well with people is that he really tapped into that nightmarish feel of the unknown. A deep fear that many of us have always had.
Sure, tentacle monsters and all that are cool too though.

The important thing to remember is that a lot of his works are in the public domain now, money isn't necessary going to go directly back to platforming a racist anymore.
We can technically write stories in his world with a racially diverse cast if we want, what better way to make a racist turn in his grave?

I'm just not sure how you reconcile the "fear of the unknown" theme with embracing people of different cultures, identities and backgrounds. One is terrified of opening new doors, the other is proactively doing so. It's like trying to have it both ways.
 

Lux86

Member
Oct 27, 2017
983
I don't know how you can dissociate cosmic horror with Lovecraftian horror tbh. What cosmic horror exists that isn't also "Lovecraftian"? I see these two words as synonymous.

yeah, however, if we take for example the first season of true detective, there is a huge cosmic horror influence but it could be all linked with Chambers's work (Bierce, if we go back to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Inhabitant_of_Carcosa), without thinking about Lovecraft.
The king in yellow is probably the only cosmic horror theme (with Carcosa's myth) that can exist on its own, at least that i'm aware of.