Eurovision Song Contest 2024 |OT| "Not a political event"

[DiceAndMonsters]

In my book, being emotional or filmed in a public space are still not good enough reasons for toxic masculinity/aggressive behavior - especially against a crew worker as a talent. You don't need physical contact to have someone feel threatened in the workplace.

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there's also an issue of poor management at play with the ERU. The staff member should have been give clear instructions after the first incident rather than be let continual harass an individual.
i don't think it was a big ask to have this person not film straight after the performance back stage.

we don't have full details here but I'm sure after the first two times this staff member was aware of the issue and yet continued anyway. that seems like serious disrespect of someone's boundaries in my book.

 

[SCUMMbag]

The large numbers don't exist. Ireland simply doesn't have enough far right stooges to get a single representative elected, let alone stand any chance of matching or overtaking pro-Palestine sentiment.

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We don't but I bet we have enough who are willing to call a phone number a couple of times to put two fingers up to the left.

Without the numbers of how many people actually voted, I could definitely see that gang being able to scrounge up enough sentiment to get second in a public vote.

 

[CountCorvinus]

Congrats to Nemo. The EBU is trash.

 

[dude]

there's also an issue of poor management at play with the ERU. The staff member should have been give clear instructions after the first incident rather than be let continual harass an individual.
i don't think it was a big ask to have this person not film straight after the performance back stage.

we don't have full details here but I'm sure after the first two times this staff member was aware of the issue and yet continued anyway. that seems like serious disrespect of someone's boundaries in my book.

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Sure, poor management from the EBU might have been involved, and we surely do not have all of the details- But again, to me - this kind of disrespect can NEVER excuse threatening behavior by a man (who's a talent and thus has more power in the dynamic) against a woman worker.
We don't know what the threat was, but we do know the worker felt threatened, and given the information we have - I think it's very reasonable to side with the worker at this point, at least until different information emerge.

First of all, It was a private space, namely backstage. Second, this camera woman was clearly crossing boundaries after continuing to film with her phone after Joost requesting twice that she stop filming in the moment, and already having expressed multiple times during the week to her that he didn't want to be filmed when walking off stage. Calling the "threatening movement" that followed this disrespect for boundaries "toxic masculinity" is like calling the response to Israeli's Palestine aggression "antisemitic".

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The backstage is not a private space, it's very much public, with multiple journalists, crew workers, and talent walking around.
The last sentence of this post doesn't make a single shred of sense, no one even mentioned Israel here, but go off I guess.

 

[TheGuyFromBefore]

Sure, poor management from the EBU might have been involved, and we surely do not have all of the details- But again, to me - this kind of disrespect can NEVER excuse threatening behavior by a man (who's a talent and thus has more power in the dynamic) against a woman worker.
We don't know what the threat was, but we do know the worker felt threatened, and given the information we have - I think it's very reasonable to side with the worker at this point, at least until different information emerge.

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What does her being a woman have to do with it? And why does it seem that the information you have does not include the statements from AVROTROS?

Again:

View: https://twitter.com/songfestival/status/1789317066039726298

The backstage is not a private space, it's very much public, with multiple journalists, crew workers, and talent walking around.
The last sentence of this post doesn't make a single shred of sense, no one even mentioned Israel here, but go off I guess.

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Public space - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is an important distinction because you're allowed to film in public spaces, but there can be (and there are, in this case) rules in private spaces.

You also didn't address the concern that the camerawomen was repeatedly crossing boundaries, which is shitty regardless of the type of space. I wonder why this concern of crossing boundaries keeps flying right past you?

 

[derFeef]

The large numbers don't exist. Ireland simply doesn't have enough far right stooges to get a single representative elected, let alone stand any chance of matching or overtaking pro-Palestine sentiment.

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It doesn't need to be large numbers. Just loud enough to make multiple votes. Again, to me it is unsurprising, no matter how left your country might be politically at the moment.

 

[dude]

What does her being a woman have to do with it? And why does it seem that the information you have does not include the statements from AVROTROS?

Again:

View: https://twitter.com/songfestival/status/1789317066039726298

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You don't see why a woman could feel genuinely threatened by man engaging in a "threatening movement" towards her? You don't see how gender is relevant here?

What in what I said ignored or contradicted the AVROTROS statement?

This is an important distinction because you're allowed to film in public spaces, but there can be (and there are, in this case) rules in private spaces.

You also didn't address the concern that the camerawomen was repeatedly crossing boundaries, which is shitty regardless of the type of space. I wonder why this concern of crossing boundaries keeps flying right past you?

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Alright, I take that back - by law a backstage is not considered a public space probably. Thanks for the clarification.
I did address it: I said I don't think it's an excuse to engage in threatening behavior.

 

[Roytheone]

EBU has a responsibility to its employees. If there was a threat then that's it.

The situation with the conflict between delegations … imo it seems very messy. I'm not sure there's much you can do about people not actively engaging with each other as friends, but the wheels came off for sure when it turned to open mud slinging and I wonder when that started. Much of the stuff being reported sounds like a bunch of high school kids, whatever about the performers those more seasoned among the delegations should have maybe tried to rein it in.

Dunno what the EBU will do next year.

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They do, but they also have a responsibility to their acts to take their complaints and wishes seriously.

So I can see a situation where Joost his actions where indeed valid reason for disqualification, but the EBU failed to correctly handle his wishes and complaints about the filming beforehand. And I am not saying that to excuse Joost, but that his prior complaints don't suddenly become invalid because of his later actions.

 

[Hercule]

I think it clear as day the Eurovision organisation failed. If you replace Joost Klein with someone like Taylor swift, Ed Sheeran or Eminem there's zero chance someone would be able to keep filming them after being asked to stop doing that throughout the week. The person with the camera would be flipping burgers at mc Donalds had they ignored the "no filming" request twice at the same evening

 

[TheGuyFromBefore]

You don't see why a woman could feel genuinely threatened by man engaging in a "threatening movement" towards her? You don't see how gender is relevant here?

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No, please explain why a "threatening movement towards the camera" is so much worse depending on what gender the camera person identifies as.

Alright, I take back by law a backstage is not considered a public space. Thanks for the clarification.

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No problem, I'm glad that you're open to learn and revise your perspective.

 

[Bishop89]

Went through the whole playlist. Eurovision just keeps getting worse and worse every year imo

I don't think I liked a single song.

Maybe UK, Cyprus, Sweden & Armenia are my favourites.

Greece

Some of the worst from you

 

[dude]

No, please explain why a "threatening movement towards the camera" is so much worse depending on what gender the camera person identifies as.

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Violence against women - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TheGuyFromBefore]

Violence against women - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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For this gotcha to work, the "threatening movement towards the camera" needs to be 1) gender-based. However, the movement was based on her continuously disrespecting Joost's boundaries, which is not gender related, and we don't know what movement he made so to claim or imply it's something gender-related at this point might well amount to slandering gossip.

 

[Hercule]

Small victory for Joost. Europapa is by far the most streamed Eurovision song on Spotify. None of the other songs come even close

 

[Dragon Puncher]

The large numbers don't exist. Ireland simply doesn't have enough far right stooges to get a single representative elected, let alone stand any chance of matching or overtaking pro-Palestine sentiment.

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If every person voting for Israel did so 20 times (the max allowed) you don't need large numbers. I image this kind of political voting happened a lot all over Europe last night.

 

[His Majesty]

Quite interesting: the Australia at home ratings gave Israël the lowest rating of all the countries, yet they received 12 points from the public vote.

https://www.reddit.com/r/eurovision/comments/1cq6yk1/australia_at_home_ratings_for_the_grand_final/

 

[jungius]

Went through the whole playlist. Eurovision just keeps getting worse and worse every year imo

I don't think I liked a single song.

Maybe UK, Cyprus, Sweden & Armenia are my favourites.

Greece

Some of the worst from you

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greece is the only one on my playlist this year lmao after 5 listen it is addicting, try it

its legit rosalia vibe but with greek pop feels

 

[Steiner_Zi]

Went through the whole playlist. Eurovision just keeps getting worse and worse every year imo

I don't think I liked a single song.

Maybe UK, Cyprus, Sweden & Armenia are my favourites.

Greece

Some of the worst from you

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You liked the generic af UK and Sweden songs and somehow the Greek song irked you? At least it was something different, a mix of traditional and modern sounds.

 

[Hercule]

Quite interesting: the Australia at home ratings gave Israël the lowest rating of all the countries, yet they received 12 points from the public vote.

https://www.reddit.com/r/eurovision/comments/1cq6yk1/australia_at_home_ratings_for_the_grand_final/

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I think it's safe to assume that a lot of people who voted for Israel yesterday aren't the traditional Eurovision watchers.

Right wing politician Geert Wilders was promoting Isreal and the people following him aren't really Eurovision fans.

 

[Bishop89]

You liked the generic af UK and Sweden songs and somehow the Greek song irked you? At least it was something different, a mix of traditional and modern sounds.

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The music itself was fine, her voice was just awful. Can't sing for the life of her (live)

 

[Zutroy]

I rewatched the show today because I fell asleep during it last night after a bit too much booze in the afternoon 🥴

My favourites were Spain, Ukraine, Austria and the UK. Based on the televote results I'm obviously not aligned with the public 😂

 

[DiceAndMonsters]

I'm still humming Bambis song. I know a lot of people didn't like it but there it is.

 

[Keiriks]

The music itself was fine, her voice was just awful. Can't sing for the life of her (live)

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tbf she was sick. All things considered she's a real trooper for performing as well as she did.

 

[Ludonymist]

Estonia was absolutely robbed, imho. Funnest song of the night!

 

[dude]

For this gotcha to work, the "threatening movement towards the camera" needs to be 1) gender-based. However, the movement was based on her continuously disrespecting Joost's boundaries, which is not gender related, and we don't know what movement he made so to claim or imply it's something gender-related at this point might well amount to slandering gossip.

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I wasn't sure if I should respond to this, but I decided I will. So:

The Istanbul Convention (Council of Europe Convention on preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence) of the Council of Europe describes VAW "as a violation of human rights and a form of discrimination against women" and defines VAW as "all acts of gender-based violence that result in or are likely to result in physical, sexual, psychological, or economic harm or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion, or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or in private life".

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In addition, the term gender-based violence refers to "any acts or threats of acts intended to hurt or make women suffer physically, sexually, or psychologically, and which affect women because they are women or affect women disproportionately".

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Women are disproportionally at higher risk of violence than men, and men are the highest risk to women (we just had that viral "would you rather meet a bear or men in the woods" thing going on to illustrate that...) Whether or not he did what he did BECAUSE she's a woman, or whatever excuse he had, is irrelevant.
That's the last I'll post regarding this matter. I genuinely hope you educate yourself on gender dynamics and gender violence.

 

[Dr. Mario]

Your definition appears to be arguing his case, not yours. Imo gender-based violence is a very real problem that you kind of trivialize if you apply it to any kind of violence between people who happen to be of a different gender. The definition gives a scope for a reason. I don't think getting a phone slapped out of your hand disproportionately targets women, or is done because the staff member was a woman (there's a possibility that he was more likely to attack a woman because he thinks he can win an ensuing fight, but there's absolutely zero proof of this given that there wasn't even any actual contact nor much chance of a fight), but maybe something else happened and we still need to wait for if any fines or lawsuits result from this.

 

[dglavimans]

Day later but depending on the results on Joost his investigation I hope we either resign a few years or sent Joost again if he wants.

Gonna be an interesting few weeks and I hope we get all the information on this cause this year really didn't sit right with me. I watched every time so many years but there was too much going on for me to watch this Sunday

Gratz to the winner tho, great act and nice statements afterwards

 

[gofreak]

They do, but they also have a responsibility to their acts to take their complaints and wishes seriously.

So I can see a situation where Joost his actions where indeed valid reason for disqualification, but the EBU failed to correctly handle his wishes and complaints about the filming beforehand. And I am not saying that to excuse Joost, but that his prior complaints don't suddenly become invalid because of his later actions.

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I agree, and they should investigate and action on what happened. And, it sounds like, on many things that happened. But in any workplace his reaction would be considered totally inappropriate and sackable. Systems are imperfect, they fail, you have to keep a cool head.

 

[AdequateSubject]

I can report that in my country, many right wing politicians and pundits have gone full-blown batshit over Israel not winning.

They are now exposing the identities of the jury members on social media, accusing them of antisemitism for not giving Israel sufficient points.

 

[Dr. Mario]

I can report that in my country, many right wing politicians and pundits have gone full-blown batshit over Israel not winning.

They are now exposing the identities of the jury members on social media, accusing them of antisemitism for not giving Israel sufficient points.

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WTH, well at least we now know that there was an actual right wing campaign that most of us missed because of our bubble.

 

[Ananasas]

I can report that in my country, many right wing politicians and pundits have gone full-blown batshit over Israel not winning.

They are now exposing the identities of the jury members on social media, accusing them of antisemitism for not giving Israel sufficient points.

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And people say that Eurovision is not about politics

 

[Chumunga64]

mentally picturing Joost doing the eurovision equivalent of the CM Punk gripebomb

 

[Rahvar]

current update from Sweden's largest paper:

The incident is said to have occurred in connection with the artist leaving the stage after his performance in the second semi-final. There are several witnesses to the incident as it happened right next to the scene.

Several witnesses perceived Joost Klein as very offensive, the source states. According to Aftonbladet's experience, Klein also caused the photographer's camera to break.

- There is no question that he was very aggressive according to several who were there, says the person.

At this time, it is not known exactly what happened between the female employee and Klein or if a crime was committed. The police have finished investigating the incident and the matter will be handed over to the prosecutor.

 

[Hercule]

current update from Sweden's largest paper:

The incident is said to have occurred in connection with the artist leaving the stage after his performance in the second semi-final. There are several witnesses to the incident as it happened right next to the scene.

Several witnesses perceived Joost Klein as very offensive, the source states. According to Aftonbladet's experience, Klein also caused the photographer's camera to break.

- There is no question that he was very aggressive according to several who were there, says the person.

At this time, it is not known exactly what happened between the female employee and Klein or if a crime was committed. The police have finished investigating the incident and the matter will be handed over to the prosecutor.

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Swedish media also reported that Joost hit someone, something that's still being shared online. I think it's best to wait on more official statements

 

[dude]

Your definition appears to be arguing his case, not yours. Imo gender-based violence is a very real problem that you kind of trivialize if you apply it to any kind of violence between people who happen to be of a different gender. The definition gives a scope for a reason. I don't think getting a phone slapped out of your hand disproportionately targets women, or is done because the staff member was a woman (there's a possibility that he was more likely to attack a woman because he thinks he can win an ensuing fight, but there's absolutely zero proof of this given that there wasn't even any actual contact nor much chance of a fight), but maybe something else happened and we still need to wait for if any fines or lawsuits result from this.

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"Happen to be of a different gender" ??
Yeah, if we ignore the inherent power-dynamics that make men assaulting women problematic, AND the history of men feeling they have the physical right to assault or be threatening towards women in ways they would never to a man AND that women are much more likely to feel threatened from a man being physical or threatening towards them because of this history etc. etc. - Then SURE, these are just two people who happen to be "different genders".
This is "reverse racism" logic that kind of boggles my mind.

 

[poklane]

Swedish media now claim that Joost hit and damaged the camera, and was generally very aggressive

View: https://twitter.com/AranBade/status/1789720164398743949?s=19

 

[Rahvar]

Swedish media also reported that Joost hit someone, something that's still being shared online. I think it's best to wait on more official statements

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Which Swedish media? I don't doubt it but I havn't seen that one here. Aftonbladet has its faults, but they very rarely report on anything as a fact without good sources

 

[Rahvar]

Swedish media now claim that Joost hit and damaged the camera, and was generally very aggressive

View: https://twitter.com/AranBade/status/1789720164398743949?s=19

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They don't say he hit the camera. They say they heard that the camera broke. She might just have dropped it because she got frightened.

 

[Dr. Mario]

"Happen to be of a different gender" ??
Yeah, if we ignore the inherent power-dynamics that make men assaulting women problematic, AND the history of men feeling they have the physical right to assault or be threatening towards women in ways they would never to a man AND that women are much more likely to feel threatened from a man being physical or threatening towards them because of this history etc. etc. - Then SURE, these are just two people who happen to be "different genders".
This is "reverse racism" logic that kind of boggles my mind.

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I'm not, but like racism, if everything is racism, then nothing is. If it's categorically always gender based violence if the threatening situation is between a man and a woman, then you're arguing that men and women shouldn't be equal in the eyes of the law. This to me is a much worse situation than what you're trying to solve.

Anyway, wildly off topic at this point, so I'll take your cue and not pursue this any further, and focus back on Eurovision.

Or on this new information, lol.

 

[Hercule]

Which Swedish media? I don't doubt it but I havn't seen that one here. Aftonbladet has its faults, but they very rarely report on anything as a fact without good sources

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Same news paper. Swedish Police confirmed later nothing physical happened so that first story Aftonbladet wrote wasn't true or at least inaccurate

 

[Rahvar]

Same news paper. Swedish Police confirmed later nothing physical happened so that first story Aftonbladet wrote wasn't true or at least inaccurate

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I'm pretty sure this is just an issue with translation. There has been no reports from them saying he was. The Swedish word våldsam, violent, does not explicitly imply physical violence.
As you see with the tweet liked above by poklane, Dutch media are reporting that Aftonbladet wrote that he broke her camera. There was no mention of him breaking anything.

 

[Humidex]

Österdahl should be taken to the cleaners for his handling of the contest.

View: https://x.com/tiagoserracunha/status/1789653174443257965?s=46

 

[Bill Gaitas]

Österdahl should be taken to the cleaners for his handling of the contest.

View: https://x.com/tiagoserracunha/status/1789653174443257965?s=46

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Context:


View: https://twitter.com/ESCdiscord/status/1789712089394614507?s=19

 

[horkrux]

I completely fucking missed it this year. Gonna watch the performances to see if there was something good this time.

All I know is we haven't been dead last this time, which is nothing short of a miracle

 

[lexony]

Swedish media also reported that Joost hit someone, something that's still being shared online. I think it's best to wait on more official statements

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Yeah but dosen't mean that Swedish Media can't be trusted in general lol. You can't fully trust Rumors, but that's true for any reporting with no official confirmation.

 

[waterpuppy]

People acting as if Swedish media is inherently untrustworthy reporting on this, but the dutch broadcaster's statement should be trusted as a 100% unbiased source, for sure.

At this point things are still unknown so I don't feel comfortable putting my eggs in either the Joost or EBU basket as in whose story is the true one. If anything I just feel bad for the woman who is now being harassed and searched for all across social media since Eurovision fans cannot be normal about anything and want her identity to be known.


Anyway I'm happy Switzerland won, wasn't my favorite but seeing a nonbinary person win with a song about finding their identity is pretty cool. I almost passed out from relief once Israel was out of the winners race.

 

[Soap]

Really, the EBU leadership should be fired over this. Whether you agree with Israel being included or not, whether Joost did or did not assault somebody and how, the way it has all been handled has left a space for rumours to fluster. If the EBU were more transparent about the Joost situation then we wouldn't be here having these conversations.

 

[Hercule]

View: https://twitter.com/miemzel/status/1789594756827242929?t=C0sAHrXkuMBibW4enZf8dg&s=19
Someone posted the clip of the booing online. I'm not sure if the EBU top will be the same next year

 

[Dylan Dogood]

Love all the Dutch people on Twitter and Reddit excusing Joost's actions by blaming Swedes for not understanding the Dutch "blunt" and "direct" way of communicating. Just an unfortunate cultural clash, apparently. Swedes are just too political correct and sensitive to understand the more truthful Dutch communication style!

Imagine being Dutch and believing your culture is markedly different (or superior) to that of any other European nation. Truth is, you're not that special.

Not that this forum is much better. I still have vivid memories from the ASAP Rocky incident, when many members of this forum defended Rocky for hitting a Swede with excuses that essential amounted to: "In America, annoying people get hit".

So what I'm trying to say is: Just wait for the prosecutor's decision. Also, even if Joost didn't commit a crime, he still might have been acting like an aggressive asshole deserving to be banned.

 

[Humidex]

Well they ain't hiding it lol