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Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,077


(it was a comment about now-deleted tweet from Unity about including new features for developers in the gambling sector [think Konami's pachislot machines etc.])

D6yWgVlUwAADwMy.png:large


I worked on Neverwinter, the free-to-play MMO that came out several years ago. Many F2P game systems are lifted directly from the gambling industry, so let me give you an idea of what supporting that means for video games, gamers, and developers.

Loot boxes in games are a familiar topic for a lot of people, but they often discuss the wrong angle. Most gamers comment on how annoying they are, but few people address how harmful they are.

First, to deconstruct what a loot box is for those who don't do F2P games: It's a package you open that has a % chance you'll receive one of a number of cosmetic or gameplay-altering rewards when you open it. You pay for the privilege to open the loot box.

This pay-for-potential-rewards structure is lifted directly from casino gambling — slot machines in particular. In fact, most of the win rates and feedback systems for loot boxes are lifted directly from slot machine design. Here are some aspects that are similar:
  • Pay-to-play
  • Sounds and visuals designed to heighten excitement and anticipation
  • Low initial investment
  • High accessibility
  • Intentionally stingy rewards
  • Highly broadcast high-end rewards
Let's break these down.

Pay-to-play means you're locked out of content until you drop some money, and that does some weird psychological things I'm not qualified to talk about. Regardless, it sets a barrier to entry, but it's designed to be low enough (penny slots, anyone?) that anyone can play.

Sounds and visuals play a huge part in making loot boxes. They have a specific cadence built into them which increases tension over a short time, and then they flash pretty lights and play exciting sounds. Slot machines perfected it, and now video games crank it to 11.

Low initial investment is incredibly important for gambling because it tricks your brain into thinking you're not spending much money, even if you end up spending dozens or hundreds in the end. This ties in well with the intentionally stingy reward cycle, which I'll get to.

Accessibility in slot machines is walking up and popping a penny in, but accessibility in loot boxes is even more insidious; you spend some time playing the game, you get a free taste, and then you have to pay to play once you get that initial adrenaline rush.

Intentionally stingy rewards keep people coming back, and spending more money over time by constantly teasing the possibility of a greater reward. You see this with slots, and you see it with the possibility of winning a sweet new skin, only to end up with ugly poop.

Highly broadcast high-end rewards are things like the bright flashing lights, loud bells, and other aspects of winning you see from slots. You get the same thing for free in video games because people want to show off their shiny loot, and they even make videos about it.

So. What all these reward systems do is give you a trickle of excitement with the occasional punctuation of winning a little bit, and that system is incredibly addictive for many people. Let me give a couple of examples.

You hear about people with gambling addictions blowing thousands of dollars at a casino. These people get addicted to the risk/reward cycle of gambling; it literally makes happy juices squirt into their brain. The EXACT same happens with loot boxes, and there are metrics.

Those metrics aren't just "this person is spending X." No. When I was on Neverwinter, I heard a conversation about one of our highest spenders who was a single mother of 3-4 kids in Kentucky. The people making the game knew who this individual was and how much she spent monthly

That may not sound super terrible, until you hear that this single mother was spending over a thousand dollars a month on in-game items, people knew her salary range, and could literally stick a pin in a map with her physical address.

It's important for people running these games to have metrics and info like this so they can tailor the experience to you. This is where video game loot boxes are actually more insidious than casino gambling; they don't just take your money, they tailor your personal experience.

Companies who produce games with loot boxes tailor your experience so that the amount they make off you is maximized. For most people this is pennies per month, but for some people they're literally tailoring the game to take advantage of your gambling addiction.

The killer thing is that, without whales — without the people with gambling addictions — these systems fail. If you've ever done any reading on how airline ticket pricing works, it's a similar business model. A small number of high spenders keep the whole thing afloat.

So, to get back to the Unity link: Supporting the gambling industry is lucrative, but also INCREDIBLY unethical. You're supporting a system designed to literally, not figuratively, LITERALLY prey on the addictions of a relatively small number of people.

All those talks at GDC a few years ago about monetization? Preying on addictions.
Loot boxes in Overwatch, Apex Legends, Fortnite? Preying on addictions.
Monetization and marketing experts? Preying-on-addictions experts.

Interestingly, this is the same system Valve uses to exploit artists who make skins and items for TF2 and DOTA2. A few "lucky" people get their items selected (by a black box selection process) which strings others along to keep creating free content for them.

They pay for none of the labor involved in making skins for DOTA characters, but reap 70% of all profits, which equates to millions of dollars per year. Good times.

Anyway, this is why I'll never work on another F2P game again, and this is why seeing Unity openly talking about how they're supporting the gambling industry makes me never want to touch Unity's tools again.

https://metacouncil.com/threads/ex-...rn-games.1068/#lg=_xfUid-1-1558173896&slide=0
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
Always annoyed me how you couldn't turn off the notification you get on your screen when someone gets an Epic or Legendary from lootboxes in NW.
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,212
Very interesting write up. Crazy to see Unity catering directly to capital-G Gambling, but on the other hand there's very little difference between that and modern free to play monetization. Which has also become a common recurring monetization scheme in full price AAA games. Gah.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Neverwinter is one of the worst examples of pay to win and lootboxes.

They eventually banned me during huntgate for wracking up some extra ad. Did me a favour to be honest as frustrated as I was at the time.
 
OP
OP
Theorry

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,077
This is the most scary thing. A slot machine doesnt know who you are or what you have spend and what you like. A game can and adapt on that.

It's important for people running these games to have metrics and info like this so they can tailor the experience to you. This is where video game loot boxes are actually more insidious than casino gambling; they don't just take your money, they tailor your personal experience.
 

TheKeyPit

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,865
Germany
This is the most scary thing. A slot machine doesnt know who you are or what you have spend and what you like. A game can and adapt on that.
If a lootbox-system gets tailored specifically to one person(lowering their chance to get something good, and bait them to keep trying, because they know that the person will do so), that should be illegal!
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
If a lootbox-system gets tailored specifically to one person(lowering their chance to get something good, and bait them to keep trying, because they know that the person will do so), that should be illegal!

Shhh developers gotta eat.

Some of the debates on this forum with the rampant defending of anything loot box related were some of the most embarrassing heights of corporate pandering I've witnessed in the games industry.

Lmao a lot of people got banned because of that exploit, was it a perma?

Yes permanent. Even after apologizing and asking support if they'd just remove around the 1.2m rough ad I made they said no you have to learn consequences.

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sILeUkd.png


While I'm not one of the big spenders I wasn't a f2p player. Probably spent around £600 over a few years. The only game that successfully managed to get me gambling a bit. Besides buying the Dragon pack on PSN for like £40.

They banned one of their few content creators FNHUSA57 and refused to unban him. Quite honestly I think the devs just used it as a way to nuke millions of legitimate AD out of the economy and try and get some players starting from zero again on new accounts.

My alliance is still going though, check in with them on discord every so often. Many people were banned lol, some started again on new accounts. I refused to do that. The grind in NW to complete campaigns unless you buy them out is insane.

edit: The FHNHUSA57 guy is still fighting it lol

 
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ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,553
That may not sound super terrible, until you hear that this single mother was spending over a thousand dollars a month on in-game items, people knew her salary range, and could literally stick a pin in a map with her physical address.

I suspected this for a while, but having a dev confirm that a game knows how much money you make is a really big deal.
 

Deleted member 274

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,564
Having played mobile games before, Clash Royale more especifically, it's downright scary just how much time and effort these people put towards the psychological manipulation of their users/victims.

The game is pushing you to spend money on it from all fronts, subtly and not subtly at all, and so hard and so frequently that it honestly becomes overwhelming and you get to a point where you just crash into a wall mentally and you have to either give in and put in the money or try and get out, if you can that is.

Thankfully I got out with only $20 down but I know a lot of people who lost thousands on that bullshit

Everything from the drop percentages to the fucking matchmaking, and especially the matchmaking, is fucking rigged to push you into giving in your bank account number. Shit is fucking evil
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,553
Loot boxes aren't worth saving, a blanket ban is necessary.

MTX are much harder to regulate, but since this dev admitted that they know their players income, then they can put a spending cap on each individual user based on their income.
 

Jolkien

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,758
Anchorage/Alaska
I knew it was bad but I had no idea it was that bad. And then multiple countries stated that loot box isn't gambling, I wonder why. Other than the obvious answers lobying.
 

Deleted member 274

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
7,564
Did they ban all those "but but trading card games" and "you open a pandora box if you get governments involved" people or where they at now?
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
Yes permanent. Even after apologizing and asking support if they'd just remove around the 1.2m rough ad I made they said no you have to learn consequences.

5lucmCR.png


sILeUkd.png


While I'm not one of the big spenders I wasn't a f2p player. Probably spent around £600 over a few years. The only game that successfully managed to get me gambling a bit. Besides buying the Dragon pack on PSN for like £40.

They banned one of their few content creators FNHUSA57 and refused to unban him. Quite honestly I think the devs just used it as a way to nuke millions of legitimate AD out of the economy and try and get some players starting from zero again on new accounts.

My alliance is still going though, check in with them on discord every so often. Many people were banned lol, some started again on new accounts. I refused to do that. The grind in NW to complete campaigns unless you buy them out is insane.

edit: The FHNHUSA57 guy is still fighting it lol


Yeah, I know about husa, poor dude was always streaming the game on Twitch and making videos on YouTube for the game.

Also the game currently doesn't have a good playerbase on consoles (PS4 at least), much less people around and Zen prices are at 500 and requests take a long time to fill.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Yeah, I know about husa, poor dude was always streaming the game on Twitch and making videos on YouTube for the game.

Also the game currently doesn't have a good playerbase on consoles (PS4 at least), much less people around and Zen prices are at 500 and requests take a long time to fill.

Even if he truly was a F2P player, dude probably got more people signing up and playing/spending on the game than their own marketing at times. In an industry where some content creators are given non-stop freebies (EA and FIFA, I'm looking at you), others play/grind your game properly and promote it "for free".

fFt1Lfz.png


That is a LOT of time playing NW.

So as much as its all anecdotal I'd say devs probably did perm him due to being F2P and sitting on maxed out end game characters/AD. They also banned one of their other bigger streamers, I think it's Nova (Or maybe it was Garlaanx), but that was temp.

There's a balance between punishing exploits and turning your own community on you.

All of this is slightly offtopic, but for me, it plays into how defensive a loot box ran company might get if any of the playerbase even gets a bit of an upper hand. Also how much they might genuinely detest their true F2P players who manage to grind their way to end-game.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,044
UK
Those metrics aren't just "this person is spending X." No. When I was on Neverwinter, I heard a conversation about one of our highest spenders who was a single mother of 3-4 kids in Kentucky. The people making the game knew who this individual was and how much she spent monthly

That may not sound super terrible, until you hear that this single mother was spending over a thousand dollars a month on in-game items, people knew her salary range, and could literally stick a pin in a map with her physical address.

It's important for people running these games to have metrics and info like this so they can tailor the experience to you. This is where video game loot boxes are actually more insidious than casino gambling; they don't just take your money, they tailor your personal experience.

This is the kind of thing a lot of us would assume was happening only for others to say things like:

- Developers can't make these games for free
- You can't regulate because of a few people going too far
- Leveling up in an RPG is the same thing
- It's the best way to deliver content to players

And other such nonsense
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
Did they ban all those "but but trading card games" and "you open a pandora box if you get governments involved" people or where they at now?
I mean, you do open pandora's box with government intervention. However, it's clear the industry can't be trusted to self regulate. So something will have to break to stop these predatory practices.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,553
I mean, you do open pandora's box with government intervention. However, it's clear the industry can't be trusted to self regulate. So something will have to break to stop these predatory practices.

Yup, we just got headlines where EA is having to apologize to its share holders for not performing up to expectations, and thats with a gigantic infusion of Fifa loot box money, they aren't going to voluntarily give up their biggest driver of profit, government intervention will be required, which isn't ideal because the most recent legislation we saw was massively flawed and drawn up by someone who's motivations were far from pure.
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
Yup, we just got headlines where EA is having to apologize to its share holders for not performing up to expectations, and thats with a gigantic infusion of Fifa loot box money, they aren't going to voluntarily give up their biggest driver of profit, government intervention will be required, which isn't ideal because the most recent legislation we saw was massively flawed and drawn up by someone who's motivations were far from pure.
Yeah the legislation is often written by people who don't understand the industry, what needs to be changed and/or have self serving interests.
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I'm excited for governments around the world to crack down on this, hard.

It would appear that Sweden is hopping on the bandwagon when it comes to loot boxes in games and the argument on whether or not they correlate with gambling. The government is joining the likes of the US, Belgium, and South Korea into investigating this matter. The consumer protection authority will be overseeing this investigation, and it will ultimately decide on whether or not loot boxes should be regulated. While the Swedish gambling regulator, Spelinspektionen, will not carry out this investigation, the consumer protection authority will contact them, as well as both the national public health department and the media counsel, for their stances on the subject.

The report is due on October 1, 2019, with the aim of the investigation being to assist lawmakers in coming to an informed decision on whether or not laws need to be put in place to regulate issues like these in video games. No specific game studio or company is under investigation, meaning this is more of a general investigation into the matter, rather than one particular entity being brought into question.

The Swedish gambling legislation requires (broken down) the existence of a stake, a prize and a game of chance in order to meet the requirements of gambling. The prize requirement is typically the center of discussion in relation to loot boxes. Almost all gambling legislation's require that the prize has an objective, real world monetary value (one exception to this rule would be Belgium which applies a subjective standard where it is sufficient that the prize has value for the player only). Since almost no video game allows "cashing out" virtual items generated by loot boxes, it can be argued that loot-box-generated items have no real world monetary value and therefore do not constitute regulated gambling.

https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2019/05/15/sweden-loot-box-investigation/
 

DeadPhoenix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
413
I really enjoyed playing my crit rogue back in the day, but holy shit did the game constantly remind you, you need premium currency for a lot of shit. I don't think I ever ended up buying any, but thats because I'm not the target for this shit and its fuck up what they do to the people who are.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
That tweet chain has an interesting video reply I've never seen before



From Fortnite to Candy Crush, video games and mobile games are relying more and more on in-game, in-app purchases, and loot boxes to make money. This means gaming companies are finding new ways to keep players playing and spending.

Some digital games development uses old-school gambling mechanisms to keep people hooked, while others in the gaming industry are using data to learn more and in-depth behaviors about the people playing — ultimately customizing video games to individual players.

In collaboration with Retro Report, learn more here: qz.com/is/what-happens-next-2

Just about finished it, worth a watch. Explains how devs data collect to exploit.

In a less serious tone, this is still my favourite meme mashup (Star Wars and EA)



Good ole John explaining back then that is exactly what devs are doing, collecting data and looking to exploit when the player is most vulnerable.

What an amazing industry.

edit: I think that Quartz video is well produced and deserves its own topic if it didn't get one at the end of last year on here.
 
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Galactor

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
619
problem with gambling is that it feeds the system of taxes, and plic
Yeah the legislation is often written by people who don't understand the industry, what needs to be changed and/or have self serving interests.

I think legilsator understand the industry, what need to be changed and more than self interest they have to pay their debts to lobbists, they are just a puppet of the same industries that they should be controlling.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
I'd challenge this guy to name the "many" F2P game systems "lifted" from the gambling industry.

That anecdote about how they exploited a single customer is terrible though. More of an indictment of Neverwinter than it is of loot boxes or of metrics use.
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I'd challenge this guy to name the "many" F2P game systems "lifted" from the gambling industry.

That anecdote about how they exploited a single customer is terrible though. More of an indictment of Neverwinter than it is of loot boxes or of metrics use.

A large part of the mobile F2P market. You know, the original gacha feeding frenzy.

Before AAA devs found out you can just port the mobile F2P market into $60+ games.
 

Nome

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Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
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A large part of the mobile F2P market. You know, the original gacha feeding frenzy.
Gachas are one system. I can name dozens of F2P systems that have nothing to do with gambling. I can only name gachas and maybe one or two more that are remotely related to gambling.
 

Skii

Member
Oct 28, 2017
223
I'd challenge this guy to name the "many" F2P game systems "lifted" from the gambling industry.

That anecdote about how they exploited a single customer is terrible though. More of an indictment of Neverwinter than it is of loot boxes or of metrics use.

Man you guys are so naive. Games utilising loot boxes and microtransactions have entire departments dedicated to preying on addicts to ensure they spend money.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
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Man you guys are so naive. Games utilising loot boxes and microtransactions have entire departments dedicated to preying on addicts to ensure they spend money.
Thanks, I had no idea how MTX work. Please educate. What departments are these?
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Gachas are one system. I can name dozens of F2P systems that have nothing to do with gambling. I can only name gachas and maybe one or two more that are remotely related to gambling.

By gambling are you going to define it as strictly something you can say "pays out" or goes close to being of the sort?

Because when ordinary gamers talk about gambling, they are often referring to the kinds of things in the OP and elsewhere in this debate from graphical/sound design to drop rates and the pressure put on the player with things like limited time paid for chances.

I know yourself and other industry folks who work with monetization game design like to be coy and do the "but its not gambling" argument, but ordinary people will talk about a whole range of games monetization they feel preys on them and is akin to gambling.

I get that anyone who works in the games industry and makes their living from designing these systems or doing something that includes getting defensive, but we're at a point where the real world impacts don't lie. This isn't blown out of proportion. That kind of attitude is precisely why self-regulation has failed and Governments are looking at developers, publishers and designers.
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
of all the things i thought that needed an explanation..this wasn't one of them..i thought it was common knowledge how gambling addiction works and how f2p first and lootbox after that copy the exact same process.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
By gambling are you going to define it as strictly something you can say "pays out" or goes close to being of the sort?

Because when ordinary gamers talk about gambling, they are often referring to the kinds of things in the OP and elsewhere in this debate from graphical/sound design to drop rates and the pressure put on the player with things like limited time paid for chances.
No, by gambling here I'm being extremely loose, as defined by the guy's Twitter:
  • Pay-to-play
  • Sounds and visuals designed to heighten excitement and anticipation
  • Low initial investment
  • High accessibility
  • Intentionally stingy rewards
  • Highly broadcast high-end rewards
I'd challenge anyone else to name F2P systems that fulfill the above as well.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
I know yourself and other industry folks who work with monetization game design like to be coy and do the "but its not gambling" argument, but ordinary people will talk about a whole range of games monetization they feel preys on them and is akin to gambling.

I get that anyone who works in the games industry and makes their living from designing these systems or doing something that includes getting defensive, but we're at a point where the real world impacts don't lie. This isn't blown out of proportion. That kind of attitude is precisely why self-regulation has failed and Governments are looking at developers, publishers and designers.
I've repeatedly come out for government regulation of spending and access, don't put words in my mouth.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
No, by gambling here I'm being extremely loose, as defined by the guy's Twitter:

I'd challenge anyone else to name F2P systems that fulfill the above as well.

What do you mean name F2P systems? There's lots of games both F2P and P2P (pay to play) which do the above and/or do some of the above to similar end results. Chance purchases, lack of telling the drop rates (or not doing so clearly) and using audio and visual design to entice. If not straight up doing limited time rewards which put pressure on a player to either grind like mad or pay up.

I've repeatedly come out for government regulation of spending and access, don't put words in my mouth.

I apologise if I've mixed you up with others I've debated with around countless lootbox topics on here, but to what extent then? Forced (precise) drop rate exposure? Rated M/18 if there are chance purchases?
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
What do you mean name F2P systems? There's lots of games both F2P and P2P (pay to play) which do the above and/or do some of the above to similar end results. Chance purchases, lack of telling the drop rates (or not doing so clearly) and using audio and visual design to entice. If not straight up doing limited time rewards which put pressure on a player to either grind like mad or pay up.
You're just describing loot boxes here.
The dev's Tweets make the specific indictment of "Many F2P game systems are lifted directly from the gambling industry", and that's something I'm challenging.
An example of a non-loot box system that would fulfill his requirements is Hearthstone's Arena (draft) mode. There aren't a lot of systems like this though.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,411
That is a sobering tweetchain. Good on Xavier for being an ethical game developer.

Whale-chasing in the game industry needs to be regulated yesterday. It's gone wayy too far.


This bit:


in particular is something I had never considered. I knew about the cut and stuff, and knew about the loot boxes Valve's games use, but never thought of the implications of how individual, player-made items are packaged & sold.


Everyone should read Xavier's tweet chain.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
You're just describing loot boxes here.
The dev's Tweets make the specific indictment of "Many F2P game systems are lifted directly from the gambling industry", and that's something I'm challenging.
An example of a non-loot box system that would fulfill his requirements is Hearthstone's Arena (draft) mode. There aren't a lot of systems like this though.

Most of what Xavier is talking about ARE loot boxes and/or things similar to loot boxes because we know devs and pubs try to rename or obfuscate the loot box to hide from the drama.

The greater discussion around gambling is about how design is used to cause players to get addicted or get into a state of carelessness around additional monetary purchases.

This is a good watch from above, but I'm sure you know about everything here