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Excusing abuse as love in certain children's media (spoilers for Rise of Skywalkers inside)

Xaszatm

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
In children's media, there seems to be this trend of having horrible actions from parental figures to children as "they did it to love you". Like, on one hand, I get it. Many parents are forced to make tough decisions that their children won't understand until they are older. On the other hand, this is usually done so poorly that no amount of understanding or justification can ever actually justify such cruel acts. One big example is leaving a child in an abusive adoptive parents to "protect them with charms" while simultaneously doing nothing to curtail the abuse. Another comes from The Rise of Skywalker where we are told that Rey was sold into slavery to protect her and because they loved her and didn't want her to be manipulated by Palpatine.

This obviously pissed me and many people off. The idea that selling someone into slavery is an act of mercy disgusts me to my very core. There are certain acts that are just straight up child abuse. Why does this keep happening?
 

finfinfin

The Fallen
Jul 26, 2018
1,375
Writers uncritically repeating older stories, and some of them just being awful people.
 
SABO.

SABO.

Member
Nov 6, 2017
5,872
was Rey sold into slavery? I thought her parents were killed in front of her with that dagger

I don't know...hard to remember the finer details a week later
 
Quinton

Quinton

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Oct 25, 2017
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Midgar, With Love
Made a slight edit to the topic title in order to keep things vague for folks avoiding Star Wars spoilers right now.
 
808s & Villainy

808s & Villainy

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Oct 27, 2017
43,104
How is this a trend? What other children's media has done this? Can you name more than a handful?
I can think of the Dursley's in Harry Potter, I guess?
 
OP
OP
Xaszatm

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
808s & Villainy said:
How is this a trend? What other children's media has done this? Can you name more than a handful?
I can think of the Dursley's in Harry Potter, I guess?
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Dursley's parentage, Percy Jackson's stepdad (though this is fixed by the end of the first book), it's not super common but it appears enough that TROS pisses me off because it was so egregious.
 
Galactor

Galactor

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
619
OP you are asking an interesting question, I think the abrahamanic rooots of hollywood dont allow to explore the possibilities of parental failure despite good intentions, I think its a very deep psychological subject that can make some parents react against the media because of proyection, they want to not make parents feel guilty even if the story line would greatly benefit.
 

Maso

Member
Sep 6, 2018
917
Shitty parents justifying their actions is as old as man itself. Are there good examples of children's media as a whole trying to push an agenda here? I read the OP and it's just putting the new Star Wars on blast.
 
OP
OP
Xaszatm

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Maso said:
Shitty parents justifying their actions is as old as man itself. Are there good examples of children's media as a whole trying to push an agenda here? I read the OP and it's just putting the new Star Wars on blast.
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I mean, I do list Dumbledore's actions with Harry and the Dursley's as an example.
 

Maso

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Sep 6, 2018
917
Xaszatm said:
I mean, I do list Dumbledore's actions with Harry and the Dursley's as an example.
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Ah, I wasn't able to put two and two together on that one. I do agree it's not something that should be pushed or be a trend in children's media, as it can give the idea of "it's just the way things are". As someone who doesn't keep up with today's children's media though, I'm ignorant and was expecting a lot more enlightenment on the ongoing trend here. Harry Potter is an old example even.
 
Rendering...

Rendering...

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Oct 30, 2017
19,089
Stories that sugarcoat awful parenting are part of our cultural heritage. Any society with Judeo-Christian roots will be burdened with a dependence on traditional authority. That's one part of it.

This leads into the next part: the practical and immediate need to appeal to the audience with soothing cliches that reinforce traditional power structures. Everybody wants to believe that their actions are right. Everybody wants to feel secure in their worldview.

Stories that challenge paternalism and invite critical self-reflection can inflame the insecurities of people who wants to be entertained with merry diversions, not provoked with uncomfortable questions.

A great many people are conservative by nature. Not strictly in the political sense, but in the broad impulse to preserve comforting tradition.
 
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ckareset

ckareset

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Feb 2, 2018
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TROS is a mess. Doesn't make sense to use it
 
Wispmetas

Wispmetas

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Oct 27, 2017
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Well its easy to think that was a good thing when the alternative was being taken by the Sith lord or whatever

Same can be said about harry Potter, because the alternative was being killed by Voldemort.

I believe they do this to make the backstory of these characters more tragic so people relate to them more
 

Deleted member 24097

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Oct 29, 2017
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Xaszatm said:
This obviously pissed me and many people off. The idea that selling someone into slavery is an act of mercy disgusts me to my very core. There are certain acts that are just straight up child abuse. Why does this keep happening?
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If you let the child decide on their own and make a decision they regret, the blame ultimately falls upon them.
If you decide to prevent that by putting the child in a situation where they suffer but ultimately *you* are the piece of shit, the blame falls upon you.

As a parent, the question becomes: who do you decide to sacrifice, yourself 100%, or potentially your child?

There is no right answer, but it is a problem that's easy to relate to, so it has been prevalent in entertainment since ancient Greece.
 
IDreamOfHime

IDreamOfHime

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Oct 27, 2017
14,706
I totally believe slavery in Star Wars should have been called something else. Lucas having his slave child protagonist be able to build the equivalent of an F1 car his garage during free time from his slave master really diluted the use of the word.
Having other child slaves tell him he's lucky also was stupid.
 
Jonathan Lanza

Jonathan Lanza

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Feb 8, 2019
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Rendering... said:
Stories that sugarcoat awful parenting are part of our cultural heritage. Any society with Judeo-Christian roots will be burdened with a dependence on traditional authority. That's one part of it.

This leads into the next part: the practical and immediate need to appeal to the audience with soothing cliches that reinforce traditional power structures. Everybody wants to believe that their actions are right. Everybody wants to feel secure in their worldview.

Stories that challenge paternalism and invite critical self-reflection can inflame the insecurities of people who wants to be entertained with merry diversions, not provoked with uncomfortable questions.

A great many people are conservative by nature. Not strictly in the political sense, but in the broad impulse to preserve comforting tradition.
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This sums it up very well. Even on here questioning paternal figures is clearly taboo for a lot of people and being a parent is often treated as a virtue that should be respected no matter what. Things that upset that notion tend to make people uncomfortable.
 

TiC

Banned
Jul 12, 2019
609
Sander VF said:
Hey at least it wasn't like Naruto where Gaara's psychopath dad loved him all along.
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Naruto himself is an example for this topic. The 3rd Hokage just allowed the orphan of the 4th to live in poverty shunned by everybody. He should have straight up adopted Naruto. Was there ever any reason given to the neglect Naruto faced?
 
NameUser

NameUser

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Oct 25, 2017
14,175
Kuraudo said:
I mean it's a film where a mass murderer stalks Rey across half the galaxy and is rewarded with a kiss.
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Yup. This is my biggest issue with the film. Totally ruins her character. She didn't have to kiss anyone, but if she had to, it should've been Finn. Because he was "Ride or Die" since day one basically. But no—let's tie her to the two most toxic men in the trilogy! 😒
 
Hollywood Duo

Hollywood Duo

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Oct 25, 2017
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I don't think that was the message from RoS. Her parents essentially sacrificed their lives for hers. In Star Wars slavery is more like indentured servitude.
 
The Silver

The Silver

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Oct 28, 2017
10,770
I read this and I immediately went to Reylo as another SasuSakura.

In other news there's also something to be said about how SWs has now made a thing about moving heaven and earth to forgive and excuse the genocidal manchild tantrums of men.
 
NameUser

NameUser

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IDreamOfHime said:
I totally believe slavery in Star Wars should have been called something else. Lucas having his slave child protagonist be able to build the equivalent of an F1 car his garage during free time from his slave master really diluted the use of the word.
Having other child slaves tell him he's lucky also was stupid.
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Yeah, seems more like indentured servitude, and not the kind of slavery that went on in America.
 
Sho_Nuff82

Sho_Nuff82

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Nov 14, 2017
18,637
Naruto and Harry Potter - the thread.

"We protected you by acting like villainous or neglectful cunts, even though our neglect and villainy drove the plot to the point where you have to save it now. Because it's your destiny, child."
 

Deleted member 24097

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Jonathan Lanza said:
This sums it up very well. Even on here questioning paternal figures is clearly taboo for a lot of people and being a parent is often treated as a virtue that should be respected no matter what. Things that upset that notion tend to make people uncomfortable.
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You are completely missing the point.
It is easy to think "I'll teach my kids how to be better" when you have the luxury of time ahead of yourself.

Now what do you do when you don't have that luxury?
What outcome do you bet on?
How do you weigh risk and reward - not for yourself but for your offspring.

This is what those types of stories are about.
Who has to live with guilt in the end? You, or your child? It is your pick!
 
Siggy-P

Siggy-P

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Mar 18, 2018
11,878
I feel like its a carry over from older tropes. Not necessarily child abuse but more the allegory that abuse in general is because of love or commitment.

Like if you watch Charlie and the Chocolate factory, it's basically a move that glorifies poor workers conditions.
 
Sho_Nuff82

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,637
The fetishization of keeping secrets from children is pretty bad as well.

The Witcher S1 has a pretty serious example with
Ciri's grandmother not telling her about her "gift" or "the escape plan" before riding off personally into battle. Just dumb, dumb, dumb.

Obvious other examples with Indiana Jones, Lara Croft, Supergirl.

Keeping your kids at arm's length your entire life or dumping your insecurities on them is thankfully addressed with a tad more realism in Bojack Horseman.
 
NHarmonic.

NHarmonic.

▲ Legend ▲
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Oct 27, 2017
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Sho_Nuff82 said:
Naruto and Harry Potter - the thread.

"We protected you by acting like villainous or neglectful cunts, even though our neglect and villainy drove the plot to the point where you have to save it now. Because it's your destiny, child."
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Itachi's "i killed everyone you knew and loved to protect you, Sasuke"
 
Laughing Banana

Laughing Banana

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Oct 27, 2017
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I thought this topic is about that goddamn kiss even though he's a mass murderer that has tormented Rey, abusive and manipulative of her, blew up a planet, killed hundreds of people, etc etc.

I just couldn't believe that shit.
 

Dekim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,348
Itachi from Naruto is a prime example of this. He pretty much psychologically tortured his brother for years "to protect him" and is a large reason why Sasuke grew up to be so fucked up as he did.
 
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

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Oct 26, 2017
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Sander VF said:
Hey at least it wasn't like Naruto where Gaara's psychopath dad loved him all along.
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Yea that was some straight bullshit. Dude literally sent assassins after the kid on the daily and then wondered why he was insane at the age of 12.

Dekim said:
Itachi from Naruto is a prime example of this. He pretty much psychologically tortured his brother for years "to protect him" and is a large reason why Sasuke grew up to be so fucked up as he did.
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To be fair the series has the self awareness to be critical about this by having Itachi admit that he tucked up
 
Aine

Aine

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May 27, 2019
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Society conditions us to forgive terrible and abusive people uncritically, and as others pointed out, this goes all the way back to religious traditions. Your abusers "loved" you and had "good" reasons for doing what they do, so it can't be all that bad, right?

This attitude goes especially towards coddling abusive men and absolving them of wrongdoing, which is why you so often see fans defend them.
 
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