Fallout exploding in interest thanks to its TV show REALLY highlights how botched the handling of Halo’s own show was

[Trup1aya]

sure - that's fair. but you could say that about anything. but social commentary (whether you think it works or not) is built into Fallout's DNA (thanks, I suppose, to its IP handlers)… whereas you can't say the same thing about Halo.

Click to shrink...

my point is, there's not really any barrier to using the Halo universe to hold up a mirror to society. That's really what the role of many of the factions and support characters have in the novels, but for some reason aren't used that way in the show.

 

[IIFloodyII]

Heard pretty much nothing but Halo TV season 1 is bad and boring and season 2 is a bit better but still pretty bad and boring, so no real interest in finding out where I land as I already don't care much for Halo.

Fallout is pretty much the opposite for me, so hard to compare the situations, but my friend doesn't care about Fallout and tried it based on the good word of mouth and really liked, even been talking about how does it lime up with the games and what have you, I doubt he'd ever really change his mind on the games as they just aren't the type of games he likes, but he is definitely much more interested in the series.

 

[NDA-Man]

Halo has the potential to say interesting things about society. It's a story of late stage capitalism, meets religious zealously, meets fascism. the IPs handlers have chosen not to saying anything interesting.

Click to shrink...

sure - that's fair. but you could say that about anything. but social commentary (whether you think it works or not) is built into Fallout's DNA (thanks, I suppose, to its IP handlers)… whereas you can't say the same thing about Halo.

Click to shrink...

I don't think it has to say anything (intentionally) to be compelling. One could discuss Predator in the context of the subplot of the CIA meddling in Latin American affairs in the 1980s and Dutch's outrage at the rescue op mainly being a setup... but the film stands on the merits or Arnold Schwarzenegger fighting a scary alien. Aliens does have a ton of little details and does outright say plenty of things, and a lot of people miss the point because space marines fighting Aliens is so cool--to the point Halo owes it a massive debt of gratitude for like, most of its incidental cast.

There absolutely is a market for popcorn entertainment, and honestly, I feel THAT would've been a more successful strategy than the UNSC military-industrial conspiracy nonsense or trying to incorporatethe lore most Halo fans skip. Embody Halo as a action game adaptation rather than Halo as a deep well of lore. Bright green space man versus predator knockoffs and space gnomes could definitely have sustained a movie or miniseries if donehalfway competently.

 

[Khanimus]

I mean... Fallout is just inherently more interesting. Conceptually, thematically, and aesthetically.

 

[Valet Jay]

A few things come to mind.

Halo as an IP is poorly managed. As a prime example, they made a conscious choice to team up with Mega Bloks rather than LEGO.

They decided to work with Paramount+ instead of Netflix, Prime, or HBO.

Clearly, leadership is bred straight from MS's legacy because both entities only care about producing "good enough" experiences for the cheapest cost. Just look at everything else they make. Teams, SharePoint, etc. There's always a better product elsewhere.

That's how they treat Halo. How to make a MVP with tinier budgets.

Secondly, Fallout is a more easier IP for the causal audience to understand and enjoy.

Not as many really care about the political turmoil of an intergalactic federation with robotic super soldiers and human-like AI (bUt ThE dIcHoToMy! egh)

It's also not weighted down by one protagonist and his story. That's the same issue the latest Star Wars movies had. Too much reliance on the Skywalker family.

 

[Trup1aya]

I don't think it has to say anything (intentionally) to be compelling. One could discuss Predator in the context of the subplot of the CIA meddling in Latin American affairs in the 1980s and Dutch's outrage at the rescue op mainly being a setup... but the film stands on the merits or Arnold Schwarzenegger fighting a scary alien. Aliens does have a ton of little details and does outright say plenty of things, and a lot of people miss the point because space marines fighting Aliens is so cool--to the point Halo owes it a massive debt of gratitude for like, most of its incidental cast.

There absolutely is a market for popcorn entertainment, and honestly, I feel THAT would've been a more successful strategy than the UNSC military-industrial conspiracy nonsense or trying to incorporatethe lore most Halo fans skip. Embody Halo as a action game adaptation rather than Halo as a deep well of lore. Bright green space man versus predator knockoffs and space gnomes could definitely have sustained a movie or miniseriesshow if done

Click to shrink...

As a TV show, green space marine killing aliens is a non-starter just in cost alone. That might work as a movie. But it's too expensive as a TV show. I mean just look at how much it costs to produce 8 episodes with 4 action sequences.

A proper TV show, needs to have drama. The Halo Universe has good drama- drama that if presented in TV show format would reasonably appeal to fans of Halo games, and fans of good drama in general.

Halo players might skip a novel (the novels that the TV show references, but largely dissociates itself from sold really well) But they aren't going to skip a well reviewed TV series that is authentic to the universe. Tapping into the preexisting lore would not have been some risky strategy compared to their decision to write separate lore for the Show.

 

[Complicated]

It seems pretty obvious to me that the movie/show was in limbo for so long because nobody could figure out how to get past the Verhoeven issue. Halo is just Starship Troopers, and you can't really turn a Halo show into the Verhoeven version of Starship Troopers which he rightly saw was the only way to make the story work in a live action production.

You could obviously make a limited appeal movie about a fascist world government cracking down on colonies and have it actually deal with the issues, but a mainstream blockbuster or tv show was never going to work very well.

That along with it being on Paramount meant there really wasn't much to squander. If you want an actual good comparison Cyberpunk is the missed opportunity for Halo. They've already done animated halo in the past and it was great. And it would work fine with the ridiculous tone of the story in all the ways live action never could.

 

[Abrasion Test]

I do agree that Fallout is probably easier to make your own story within that universe for TV. However, I disagree that Halo isn't a good fit or have appeal. There's a lot to work with there and the show at present effectively just threw that out the window.

Even some of the interesting new ideas it use it doesn't commit to.

Click to shrink...

The seeming disdain for the Halo source material didn't help. They didn't even incorporate the music from the games, which is the easiest homerun they could have gone for.

 

[NDA-Man]

As a TV show, green space marine killing aliens is a non-starter just in cost alone. That might work as a movie. But it's too expensive as a TV show. I mean just look at how much it costs to produce 8 episodes with 4 action sequences.

A proper TV show, needs to have drama. The Halo Universe has good drama- drama that if presented in TV show format would reasonably appeal to fans of Halo games, and fans of good drama in general.

Halo players might skip a novel (the novels that the TV show references, but largely dissociates itself from sold really well) But they aren't going to skip a well reviewed TV series that is authentic to the universe. Tapping into the preexisting lore would not have been some risky strategy compared to their decision to write separate lore for the Show.

Click to shrink...

Eh, my point I guess is it should've been a movie, 2-3 episode miniseries max. Focus all the budget wasted on two seasons two hours.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Halo was a terrible IP to do a live action of, specially one centered around the master chief

Click to shrink...

Fall of Reach (novel) as a straight sci fi adaptation would've rivaled the Expanse imo.

Turning Master Chief into Jack Reacher and trying to tie together all of these interpersonal relationships + introducing a new antagonist + spending 1/3 of the season on the human rebels just to introduce a monitor was a choice.

Halo is a relatively straightforward story that 343 seems almost embarrassed of.

 

[Tailzo]

How did the Mario or Sonic movies affect game sales?

 

[Clive-Rosfield]

Both season 1 and 2 sucked.

 

[UAZ-469]

That along with it being on Paramount meant there really wasn't much to squander. If you want an actual good comparison Cyberpunk is the missed opportunity for Halo. They've already done animated halo in the past and it was great. And it would work fine with the ridiculous tone of the story in all the ways live action never could.

Click to shrink...

The Legends DVD? 🤢 If you say so. I regret the bandwidth I spent torrenting that. That may be more on 343 though.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I mean... Fallout is just inherently more interesting. Conceptually, thematically, and aesthetically.

Click to shrink...

I do think that Fallout is just an instantly more approachable series for an adaptation in almost every way, yeah. You can have face actors and make them a huge selling point for the show but they don't OVERPOWER the show by being there the way that, like, casting Chris Evans as Master Chief would have.

It really can't be overstated how absolutely perfect Walton Goggins was for Fallout. His presence alone practically helped the show exist and it had a huge impact on selling it to audiences too.

 

[00Quan[T]]

I found it pure insanity how some people managed to get excited for that show, it just destroyed anything interesting about Halo each episode.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

TV is 90% people talking to each other. Halo is 90% being talked to over comms

It would take a miracle for that to work in the Halo universe because at that point, you are basically making up an entirely new cast and story to be able to do so on a TV budget.

 

[DesVoeux]

Remember when Microsoft was so confident that Halo would be a blockbuster in live action that they paid Alex Garland a million bucks to write a script and then hired actors to dress like Master Chief and deliver the scripts/ultimatums to movie studios? It was wild!

https://www.cnet.com/tech/gaming/hollywood-balks-at-microsofts-halo-pitch/

 

[Trup1aya]

Eh, my point I guess is it should've been a movie, 2-3 episode miniseries max. Focus all the budget wasted on two seasons two hours.

Click to shrink...

I mean, that probably would have been much better received than what we got. But the format of the show we got was fine. Bad writing and distain for the source material worked against it.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Remember when Microsoft was so confident that Halo would be a blockbuster in live action that they paid Alex Garland a million bucks to write a script and then hired actors to dress like Master Chief and deliver the scripts/ultimatums to movie studios? It was wild!

https://www.cnet.com/tech/gaming/hollywood-balks-at-microsofts-halo-pitch/

Click to shrink...

His screenplay was Fall of Reach iirc

 

[PcPlasticFuzz]

I've adored Halo since day one. The handling of the TV show was a disgrace and actually made me angry watching. It's a joke shop just hope bad it is.

 

[NDA-Man]

Remember when Microsoft was so confident that Halo would be a blockbuster in live action that they paid Alex Garland a million bucks to write a script and then hired actors to dress like Master Chief and deliver the scripts/ultimatums to movie studios? It was wild!

https://www.cnet.com/tech/gaming/hollywood-balks-at-microsofts-halo-pitch/

Click to shrink...

I think the funniest part was how most of the studios immediately went "lolnope" at those demands. Guess they were prescient over Halo's actual value.

 

[Tagyhag]

The creators seemed to actively hate the Halo games, so it makes sense.

When you're motivated solely by greed, you're not always going to get the best results.

 

[wwm0nkey]

TV is 90% people talking to each other. Halo is 90% being talked to over comms

It would take a miracle for that to work in the Halo universe because at that point, you are basically making up an entirely new cast and story to be able to do so on a TV budget.

Click to shrink...

The Fall of Reach, First Strike, Ghost of Onyx and Contact Harvest is more than just shoot bang, they had options.

Actually Contact Harvest would have been sick, humanity's first contact with the Covenant that sets up the covenant super well with the prophets

 

[KDC720]

I thought S2 of Halo was definitely a step up from the first, I am actually interested to see where it goes, but it's also still not really where it needs to be in terms of overall quality.

I think the Master Chief parts of Halo are just difficult to adapt faithfully, especially with a TV budget. They probably would have been better served adapting Reach or ODST or one of the novels, but it also didn't help that the season 1 showrunners had a very clear disdain of the material. It still just feels too much like The Expanse-lite but with far worse writing.

Fallout is probably far easier to adapt because the plot of every game is the protagonist having an adventure across a weird and dangerous post-war wasteland, it's a very broad canvas to work with. TLOU worked because the game itself was already cribbing a lot from prestige TV dramas.

 

[HockeyBird]

The Halo TV show is kind of the anomaly. Pretty much every recent big adaptation of a videogame resulted in increased sales and awareness. Fallout, The Last of Us, Mario, Cyberpunk, The Witcher. All saw increases in sales around when the movie or TV show dropped. I'm sure there was a boost in Sonic merch and games when the movies arrived as well. Not really sure if the Uncharted movie had any impact on the game sales. If Konami had a more recent Castlevania game timed with the show, I'm sure that would have seen a boost as well.

I think the Halo TV needed to be extraordinary to really bump Halo sales. Even if it was just simply good, I don't think it would move the needle that much. The Halo brand is just simply isn't what it used to be.

 

[EvaUnit787]

I maintain that I think Halo S2 was a decent sci-fi show - it was just a bad Halo show.

It also did a piss-poor job of making the Halo WORLD something that you came away from the show thinking "man, I want to go play the games now so I can extend my stay in that cool universe", which I think is why the Fallout games are surging right now.

Click to shrink...

In 2024 there are dozens if not hundreds of decent scifi shows. That won't cut it for a property as big or with as much potential as Halo.

Fallout seems to have it all

 

[Precious Tritium]

How did the Mario or Sonic movies affect game sales?

Click to shrink...

I can tell you as someone with kids between 6-2. Mario has never been more popular with kids, in terms of merchandise, toys, etc. Sonic was similar with those movies but the Mario movie felt like a much bigger deal.

 

[Wahad]

And also, I think I would say they only made a single good action sequence (haven't watched the very last episode of season 2 yet, though), and it was during episode 5 of Season 1. Rest felt badly written and directed.

Click to shrink...

There's one in Season 2, the last episode, that is literally ripped out from Halo Wars 2. It's an awesome animation in the game, maybe the best cinematic in all Halo games, and they just plagiarized it because they couldn't think of anything

 

[ArcticWolf]

A less spoken thing about the Fallout show that I feel is part of its success is that as it progresses it actually goes back to the older Fallouts. It invites casual and new fans to mingle with the harder/ older fans.

The show starts out as a presentation of what a new Fallout fan or just casual viewer have come to expect: it presents the Vaults as peaceful, safe and the Brotherhood as "strong and good". As the show progresses though it gets more nuanced you start to learn the things players of Fallout 1 & 2 have experience and it subverts what more junior grade Fallout fans expected. The show's last arc ends at Adytum one of the endgame regions Fallout 1. It even invites older esoteric references that predate Fallout that've been known to aged fans as well.

And when you look at the Halo show it really doesn't invite anyone into the franchise, if anything by being some quasi-retelling/alt-universe it feels like would not want to bother with the fandom both new or old. It doesn't even invite you to experience the inspirations of Halo either (Ring World, Known Space, Armor, Starship Troopers, Aliens). There's almost a conscious & intentional level of indifference to the Halo show.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Fallout was a great show made by talented creatives with respect for the source material.
Halo is poorly written and was made by people who feel like they care very little about the source material, and at times it almost feels like there's some contempt for the source material.

Fallout stays true to the source material, for the most part, and introduces the world to new viewers in a well written and organic way.
Halo actively makes changes that make things worse and doesn't bother actually properly introducing viewers to its world.

 

[LuckyLinus]

I mean, ND and Bethesda works with people like Craig Mazin and Jonathan Nolan.

I'm not a big fan of Halo but I'm pretty sure they could make a hit show with those kind of creatives involved.

 

[Aztechnology]

I'm reading that Paramount plus has 67.5 million subscribers. I don't believe it. Not at all

 

[Patitoloco]

I'm reading that Paramount plus has 67.5 million subscribers. I don't believe it. Not at all

Click to shrink...

I assume it's together with Sky Showtime which is the equivalent in Europe

 

[epicflame]

Halo definitely fits the major motion feature film rather than a series. Imagine someone with epic grand vision like Denis Villeneuve, Peter Jackson etc at the helm. But anyway I think that ship has sailed. For a Halo adaptaiion to work it needs to feel larger than life, and TV rarely does that. Maybe a miniseries on an ODST group like Band of Brothers could work.

 

[Petohtalrayn]

Still crazy to me Alex Garland drafted a script for a halo movie way back and it didn't materialize. I didn't read it myself, but his stuff's pretty consistently great. Missed opportunity most likely

 

[Th3BranMan]

Todd Howard is the key folks.

 

[Yankee Ruin X]

Halo could have been a great show if they would have stuck more to the books instead of just shitting all over it and creating the "Silver timeline".

I will never understand why show runners when they have an established franchise with millions of fans think they know better than the creators of that franchise and go massively off script. Just give the fans what they want and then you have millions of happy viewers that will get other people interested in the show. Instead you get Halo/The Witcher which pisses off that massive initial crowd.

 

[Aadiboy]

I know there's a big debate going around on whether the people behind a show or movie adapation of a game need to be fans of the source material. But the fact is yes, the writers and lead creatives do need to be fans of the source material, or at least become one after they get hired. For the actors it's a nice bonus, but for the creatives it's necessary.

People also think that these adaptations should change to garner a wider audience, but I wholeheartedly disagree. If the source material is good and the adaptation fulfills fans' wishes, the audience will come. There's no upside to spitting in the face of the fans of a franchise to appeal to the mainstream.

 

[CutieYuri]

Fallout TV show doesnt have Master Cheeks, therefore your argument is invalid. /s

 

[KalBalboa]

I don't think Halo is really capable of reaching as universally accessible an adaptation as Fallout or TLOU because it A) doesn't have a broadly appealing, elevator pitch DNA like Fallout or B) as good a story + characters as TLOU. Master Chief just isn't as easy to make appealing to every type of audience member, whereas Fallout is simpler to build a custom tailored ensemble. It's a very lose, unrestricted universe.

The Halo show went in a stale direction, but it also isn't as easy a sales pitch, inherently. It could have been better, but it was never going to be Star Wars.

Twisted Metal is still my favorite recent adaptation. I love the celebratory trash vibe... Feels like a formula that the original Mortal Kombat movie nailed.

 

[Genesius]

The craziest part is if they had managed to put together a middling action movie in 2005 it would have made a jillion dollars no matter the quality. And Neil Blomkamp was dying to do it.

 

[Nacho]

It was a terrible first season in a platform no one has, and as usual with Microsoft, didn't care for anyone outside of US/UK and didn't release anywhere else for months.

Click to shrink...

I mean yeah this right here pretty much says it all. I'm sure it could have been successful with maybe just one issue out of all of those but all 3 together makes it such a dud.

 

[Nacho]

I don't think Halo is really capable of reaching as universally accessible an adaptation as Fallout or TLOU because it A) doesn't have a broadly appealing, elevator pitch DNA like Fallout or B) as good a story + characters as TLOU. Master Chief just isn't as easy to make appealing to every type of audience member, whereas Fallout is simpler to build a custom tailored ensemble. It's a very lose, unrestricted universe.

The Halo show went in a stale direction, but it also isn't as easy a sales pitch, inherently. It could have been better, but it was never going to be Star Wars.

Twisted Metal is still my favorite recent adaptation. I love the celebratory trash vibe... Feels like a formula that the original Mortal Kombat movie nailed.

Click to shrink...

I do think halo isn't a great adaptation for a TV show if it's just trying to follow cheif and the main story. There just aren't the character beats there to tell a prolong nuanced story. A movie that's just moving from one action set peice to another with only needing very minimal character development to really feel satisfying as an action flick? Hell yeah.

But I do think the show could have been way more interesting had cheif been more of an off screen or occasional character while the main story followed someone else like doing reach or something. That also allows you to keep cheifs mind of mysterious demigod nature as you don't have to dress him down and turn him into just a human to tell a TV seasons worth of story with him.

Granted I never made it to season 2 so idk if it found it's footing some other way.

 

[Mansa Mufasa]

ODST and Reach were right there for adaptions or inspiration

 

[Did You Like It?]

This reminds me. I can't wait to relive all the rage when Season 2 of TLoU hits HBO! /s

 

[skeezx]

The craziest part is if they had managed to put together a middling action movie in 2005 it would have made a jillion dollars no matter the quality. And Neil Blomkamp was dying to do it.

Click to shrink...

was surely the prime time to do it, though if they did (and assuming the movie was just ... okay) I assume it'd be like the Resident Evil movie franchise or something, not a huge hit but not a bomb. or maybe a better parallel would be the angelina jolie Tomb Raider films

I can sort of see why it was slept on in Halo's heyday, or at least from a producer's standpoint

 

[Trup1aya]

His screenplay was Fall of Reach iirc

Click to shrink...

It was actually a screenplay of Halo:CE. Probably would have made boatloads of money at the time, even if it was mediocre, but Microsoft wanted insane creative control without funding the production. They thought a studio would pay MS top dollar for the right to assume all of the risk involved in making the movie to MS' liking.

What a wild time

 

[Zephyrhills]

Halo definitely fits the major motion feature film rather than a series. Imagine someone with epic grand vision like Denis Villeneuve, Peter Jackson etc at the helm. But anyway I think that ship has sailed. For a Halo adaptaiion to work it needs to feel larger than life, and TV rarely does that. Maybe a miniseries on an ODST group like Band of Brothers could work.

Click to shrink...

Can you imagine that Steven Spielberg and Neil Blomkamp were involved with this project at one point.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

The series diving into book lore while simultaneously being unrecognizable from Halo is peak "literally who the fuck is this for".

They had Fall of Reach right there. They literally just had to adapt Fall of Reach.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Careful now, there's a war brewing between the Halo community 343 / 343-faithful. Can't criticize too much these days without seeming entitled, apparently.

Mediocrity is Halo these days, for too many people.

A few things come to mind.

Halo as an IP is poorly managed. As a prime example, they made a conscious choice to team up with Mega Bloks rather than LEGO.

They decided to work with Paramount+ instead of Netflix, Prime, or HBO.

Clearly, leadership is bred straight from MS's legacy because both entities only care about producing "good enough" experiences for the cheapest cost. Just look at everything else they make. Teams, SharePoint, etc. There's always a better product elsewhere.

That's how they treat Halo. How to make a MVP with tinier budgets.

Secondly, Fallout is a more easier IP for the causal audience to understand and enjoy.

Not as many really care about the political turmoil of an intergalactic federation with robotic super soldiers and human-like AI (bUt ThE dIcHoToMy! egh)

It's also not weighted down by one protagonist and his story. That's the same issue the latest Star Wars movies had. Too much reliance on the Skywalker family.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much sums it up and boils it down to the core of what the issue is. Poor management and treating Halo as a Good Enough franchise instead of really taking it to the next level.

Crazy shit.. It goes back to Bungie being stubborn with Ensemble and MS over Halo Wars and then MS with everybody over the IP in general.