resonance

Member
Oct 28, 2017
244
www.youtube.com

Orientalism: Desert Level Music vs Actual Middle-Eastern Music

Human talks at camera then video ends.avi00:00 Iranians react to Orientalist music03:45 Defining Orientalist music11:44 Disclaimers17:44 "Indian, Arab, same ...

Interesting video essay from an Iranian music producer about how ""Middle Eastern""" music in Western media is often a hodgepodge of instruments and compositional styles from entirely unrelated cultures. He argues that, by itself, it's not inherently a bad thing, but when this "orientalist" music is presented as authentic Persian, Turkish, Moroccan, etc. music to Western audiences, it does a disservice to both Westerners and Easterners, and leads to a vicious cycle where audiences expect to hear orientalist music in media set in the Middle East, leading composers to make more of it, which further entrenches it in the public consciousness, and so on.

It's a long essay (an hour and a half) so I know it's a tall ask to recommend this video...but I found it pretty compelling. Once you hear that Armenian duduk instrument, you'll never be able to unhear it. And there are some fun analogies made with hypothetical "occidentalist" music (imagine hearing bagpipes and balalaikas in a movie set in Italy) that help communicate what orientalist music sounds like to folks from Middle Eastern backgrounds.

His main channel content is original modern compositions of music meant to accurately reflect traditional instruments and arrangements used by different cultural traditions, and he goes out of his way to consult academic sources and people from the culture he's working with.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,378
Ran across this the other day, although I think it repeats itself a little more than I would like I still found it insightful in how it narrowed down to details.
 

MyDudeMango

Member
Jul 17, 2021
1,877
Canada
Thanks for recommending this, I'll have to take a look. Similarly I've noticed while watching countless HK/Chinese movies just how different orientalist imitation scores are from the actual music you see in popular movies in these countries. It's a topic that fascinates me, how over-exoticized it gets, and you even see dubs of foreign movies replacing the score because it doesn't sound 'foreign' enough.
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
I watched this a few days ago and thought it was fantastic. Highly recommended!
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,733
That was fantastic, thanks for sharing. I can't deny that I was also guilty before of associating phrygian scale etc. with "desert music" and lumped a bunch of cultures together ignorantly, and I knew that was likely inaccurate but it's really eye-opening to see just how far off the mark it all was. If I had one criticism, it's that he repeats some points sometimes a bit too much. Sometimes he'll spend several minutes just saying the same thing over and over with just slightly different phrasing, it would likely trim down his videos a lot if he was a bit more concise.

Glad to see he's Québécois too! I had no idea until he started speaking French to that other Québécois musician who was learning Iranian music and I went leodicapriopointing.gif 😂

Fake edit: oh shit he made a similar video about "viking" music? 😱

www.youtube.com

Modern Viking Music : Tragedy of a Misunderstood Art

Imagine if talented, visionary European artists decided to adopt Siberian and Mongolian throat singing to enhance their artistic take on European Neopagan sp...

Haven't watched it yet but I am so ready to get all the myths debunked lol
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,415
Minnesota
Oh cool. I recently got into his channel a bit with his dives into Viking music and throat singing. He's really engaging and funny, but also just super learned on his topic. A real treat to listen to.
 

Ephonk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,003
Belgium
I'm just going to use this topic to expose people to Habibi funk, a really cool German label that collects and (re)releases music from the Arab world. Here's a playlist on spotify.
open.spotify.com

HABIBI FUNK

HABIBI FUNK · Playlist · 39 songs · 116.2K likes

And their wiki page - they give a 50% cut to the original artists and/or their family.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,862
The same thing happens for Indian music, and I see that he's already talked about it.
 

SimonChris

Member
Oct 27, 2017
378
Fake edit: oh shit he made a similar video about "viking" music? 😱

www.youtube.com

Modern Viking Music : Tragedy of a Misunderstood Art

Imagine if talented, visionary European artists decided to adopt Siberian and Mongolian throat singing to enhance their artistic take on European Neopagan sp...

Haven't watched it yet but I am so ready to get all the myths debunked lol

He has an entire series about how Mongolian throat singing became associated with "Viking" music! Apparently, a lot of people are really invested in the idea of Viking throat singing.

www.youtube.com

Did “Vikings” Have Overtone Throat Singing? - History of Music

"Current popular representations of the Vikings are typically based on cultural clichés and stereotypes, complicating modern appreciation of the Viking legac...

www.youtube.com

Throat Singing “Vikings” : An Ethno-Musicological Deconstruction of a Pop-Culture Myth

In this video, I want to take a complete look at the myth of the Norse having overtone throat singing, and deconstruct this myth with a critical ethnomusicol...

www.youtube.com

Modern Viking Music : Tragedy of a Misunderstood Art

Imagine if talented, visionary European artists decided to adopt Siberian and Mongolian throat singing to enhance their artistic take on European Neopagan sp...
 

Anomander

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,481
I saw this video and actually wanted to make a thread about it.
Lots of the points he makes in this video is why I praise PoP: The Lost Crown for, it does away with lots of orientalist crap that is prevalent in older PoP games or every game set in the Middle East tbh.
 

MidweekCoyote

Member
Mar 23, 2018
892
Watched this yesterday and it's a fantastic video. I fucking died at "Scimitars of the turban hummus of desert allahu akbar shawarma oasis"
 
Jan 1, 2024
1,873
Midgar
Nice to see this guy posted here. I've been subbed to him for a while but only listened to him a few times. Really passionate about classical musical heritage and folk music, especially around the Balkan, Turkey, Middle East region.
 
Jan 1, 2024
1,873
Midgar

As a Turk don't even get me started on these Orientalist tropes. The number of times we watch a Hollywood film or even British/American documentaries that are in Turkey, and the way they show and frame stuff about Turkey often looks nothing like the Turkey of our family and friends.

Some of the British documentaries about Turkey have been getting better about it though.

Racial codification is another one. Only Europeans can be white, Turks have to be brown for some reason. Which explains why many internet conversations with Europeans and Americans (and even sometimes Middle Easterners) about Turkey and Turks end up with: "This person doesn't look Turkish" because a Turkish person that looks white blows their minds, whereas for me and my family it's looking in the mirror.
 

Bengraven

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Oct 26, 2017
27,901
Florida
To prove the article's point, the moment I read the title I immediately got stereotypical desert videogame level/middle eastern inspired music in my head.
 

Athleon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
182
Racial codification is another one. Only Europeans can be white, Turks have to be brown for some reason. Which explains why many internet conversations with Europeans and Americans (and even sometimes Middle Easterners) about Turkey and Turks end up with: "This person doesn't look Turkish" because a Turkish person that looks white blows their minds, whereas for me and my family it's looking in the mirror.
It's especially funny when the same people will confidently tell you Greeks are white but Turks are not. When in reality you can swap Yorgos from Thessaloniki and Deniz from Istanbul and no-one would know the difference 🤣.
 
Jan 1, 2024
1,873
Midgar
It's especially funny when the same people will confidently tell you Greeks are white but Turks are not. When in reality you can swap Yorgos from Thessaloniki and Deniz from Istanbul and no-one would know the difference 🤣.
Spot on. I mentioned this in a different thread recently, Ancient Greece and therefore modern Greeks are often codified through the lens of Western European racial looks because of Renaissance artwork, which affects people perceptions to this day. A lot of ignorant people think Europeans = definitively white, then as soon as you hit Turkey everyone looks different lol but the reality is as soon as you hit Southern Europe, Balkans, Turkey, Caucasus and to an extent the Levant, it's not clear cut at all and the looks overlap.
 

Athleon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
182
Spot on. I mentioned this in a different thread recently, Ancient Greece and therefore modern Greeks are often codified through the lens of Western European racial looks because of Renaissance artwork, which affects people perceptions to this day. A lot of ignorant people think Europeans = definitively white, then as soon as you hit Turkey everyone looks different lol but the reality is as soon as you hit Southern Europe, Balkans, Turkey, Caucasus and to an extent the Levant, it's not clear cut at all and the looks overlap.
Absolutely. Classic example is the Greco-Persian wars being framed as a west vs east thing, which aside from being white supremacist wankery is also completely ahistorical. The video I posted earlier also touches on these things a bit.
 

9-Volt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,964
Very informal video, this guy knows his Persian classical music.

This reminds me of Firaxis choosing "Katibim" for the theme for Arab civilization in Civ 6. Yeah, a song composed in today's Macedonia. Couldn't you find an actually arabic music? All the other civs have super authentic music.
It's especially funny when the same people will confidently tell you Greeks are white but Turks are not. When in reality you can swap Yorgos from Thessaloniki and Deniz from Istanbul and no-one would know the difference 🤣.
Eh, it actually depends on regions of each nation. Today's people living in each nation have varying origins. In the 18th-19th centuries, Anatolia received crazy number of Polish migrants, assimilated heavily since then. People of western part of the country have that "Polish/northern slavic look". Not all of Poles assimilated though, there is small village in Istanbul retains full polish identity.

Similarly, inhabitants of Morea/Peloponnese were hellenized when it was conquered by the Empire, who were mainly Italians from every part of Italy. They still retain that look.
 

Athleon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
182
Eh, it actually depends on regions of each nation. Today's people living in each nation have varying origins. In the 18th-19th centuries, Anatolia received crazy number of Polish migrants, assimilated heavily since then. People of western part of the country have that "Polish/northern slavic look". Not all of Poles assimilated though, there is small village in Istanbul retains full polish identity.

Similarly, inhabitants of Morea/Peloponnese were hellenized when it was conquered by the Empire, who were mainly Italians from every part of Italy. They still retain that look.
Obviously I'm being reductive for simplicity (and comedic effect). The point is, it's ignorant at best to paint one country with the "white" brush and the other with the "brown" one.
 

9-Volt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,964
Obviously I'm being reductive for simplicity (and comedic effect). The point is, it's ignorant at best to paint one country with the "white" brush and the other with the "brown" one.
Yeah, I know from first hand as a blonde haired Turkish person. But that's mainly an American thing, where has some established racial definitions. In Europe it's totally different, they are aware Turks, Armenians, Georgians and Iranians are not a part of the greater Arab World. "Middle eastern" is not an racial term and looks don't usually confuse people there.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,404
Well, I learned a lot about regional musical instruments today. Also, cracked up at the William Wallace Epic Scottish Battle Music.
 
Jan 1, 2024
1,873
Midgar
Obviously I'm being reductive for simplicity (and comedic effect). The point is, it's ignorant at best to paint one country with the "white" brush and the other with the "brown" one.

Yeah, I know from first hand as a blonde haired Turkish person. But that's mainly an American thing, where has some established racial definitions. In Europe it's totally different, they are aware Turks, Armenians, Georgians and Iranians are not a part of the greater Arab World. "Middle eastern" is not an racial term and looks don't usually confuse people there.
I'm a British Turk. Here in the UK Muslims are codified as brown, it's largely understandable as most Muslims here are of Pakistani background. So if someone says "British Muslim" or "Muslim" the image will not be of an average Turk.

But even with me, an ethnic Turk with a fellow British Turkish wife, baby, family and friends etc. even when we go to Turkey, see our relatives, friends, the general public, it even strikes me when I'm there that "these Muslims don't look like Muslims" because I've lived my whole life in the UK so that the stereotype of "Muslims = Pakistani/Indian looking" has even become ingrained in my own psyche. It goes to show how powerful stereotypes can be, that it can even affect the mindset of a person from a Muslim background (albeit I'm an Atheist).