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Fight scenes in movies ruined by either bad direction or bad editing

Deleted member 21339

Deleted member 21339

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
I give you exhibit A-

https://youtu.be/oSNYkCa1f24



I'm not a filmmaker, and don't have a background in film making but I consider myself a movie buff and would like some opinions on whether folks would attribute the constant cutting here at the director who shot it or the editor who cut it. My hunch is the scene turned out this way because it was either poorly staged or poorly designed and so the editor did his best to give it flow, make it possible to follow and give it energy. But man, there are so many cuts here that it's very disorienting. There are individual shots that are striking, like the overhead angle on the sword above Guy's head, but the whole thing is such a mess to follow. Is this a case of bad editing or bad direction? And if it's a case of bad direction, why wouldn't the director put more time and attention into making the scene possible without relying so heavily on editing?

In contrast, here is a fight scene from the movie Troy, which is just beautiful to watch, easy to track, and doesn't overuse editing. Is Wolfgang Petersen just a better director of action than Ridley Scott

https://youtu.be/tAtbzV8CTV0?t=62

 
Richiek

Richiek

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Nov 2, 2017
12,063
Christopher Nolan's Batman films have horrible fight choreography, made worse by crappy shaky cam work.
 
S1kkZ

S1kkZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,567
there are way, WAY too many to list here. almost every hollywood action film has this issue.
the reason is simple: filming a good action scene takes a lot of time and talent. most directors just say "fuck it, we fix the scene during the editing process".
 
Solo

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,923
Most directors cut too rapidly and dont know how to convey spacial dynamics in a logical, easy to track manner. Fury Road was beautifully simple in its approach/framing/editing. Most could learn from the Millers and Cameron's of the world.
 
trikster40

trikster40

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
682
S1kkZ said:
there are way, WAY too many to list here. almost every hollywood action film has this issue.
the reason is simple: filming a good action scene takes a lot of time and talent. most directors just say "fuck it, we fix the scene during the editing process".
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Unless they are Netflix Marvel directors. They get that shit right and say "screw cuts!"
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
Just about all of them. It's easier to list films that do action scenes well.
 
OP
OP
Deleted member 21339

Deleted member 21339

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
Now that I've looked at those two scenes again, it seems they both have a lot of edits but the edits in the Troy scene seem to have a more logical flow. The other thing is the scene in KoH takes place in a cramped back alley without much space and it doesn't help that the actors are wearing the same clothes and have long dark hair, making it harder to make out who is who. In Troy the actors are wearing different colored armor pieces, have different colored hair, and are fighting in a wide open field. Guess those things worked in its favor as far as shooting went. Hmmm... still think the sword fight in KoH is a lot messier than it should be.
 
jett

jett

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Oct 25, 2017
44,767
How about bad everything

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CloseTalker

CloseTalker

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Oct 25, 2017
32,007
Batman vs Bane is one of the most hilarious fights in the world when you consider they're both basically trained ninjas
 
hendersonhank

hendersonhank

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Oct 27, 2017
1,390
I have no complaints with the KoH fight in OP. The Troy fight looks too slow and choreographed to me. "Okay your turn, now hold there while I pivot.." The absolute worst big fight I can think of for that kind of thing is Kylo and Rey vs the guards. Visually great in terms of color and composition etc, but as a fight it was like watching a talented high school play. Sooooo slow and stiff, it's a bad joke. Should have gotten real stuntmen/fighters to do it and CG'd their faces on or something.
 
Rassilon

Rassilon

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Oct 27, 2017
10,671
UK
Isn't the dodgy camera work usually done to mask the use of stunt actors?

That Kingdom of Heaven clip is a good example because the faces are so often obscured.
 
Thrill_house

Thrill_house

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Oct 27, 2017
10,794
S1kkZ said:
there are way, WAY too many to list here. almost every hollywood action film has this issue.
the reason is simple: filming a good action scene takes a lot of time and talent. most directors just say "fuck it, we fix the scene during the editing process".
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This right here. One of the biggest issues I have with the marvel movies. They make billions but cant get action scenes consistently right. I remember laughing at the winter soldier vs. Cap street fight for example. So many cuts and weird angles.
 
kurahador

kurahador

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Oct 28, 2017
17,825
The entire fights and action sequence in FFXV Kingsglaive were such a clusterfuck directing. I'm still not sure what the hell happen in the fight with Ultros.
 
cognizant

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,757
Rain went through lots of training and fight choreography, only for James McTeigue to completely cut his fight scenes to shreds in the abysmal Ninja Assassin. I'll never forgive McTeigue for that.
 
peteykirch

peteykirch

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Oct 25, 2017
2,869
While not a movie, the Sand Snakes vs Jaime/Bronn fight was absolutely pathetic in Game of Thrones

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HotHamBoy

HotHamBoy

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Oct 27, 2017
16,423
Unit 333 said:
Isn't the dodgy camera work usually done to mask the use of stunt actors?

That Kingdom of Heaven clip is a good example because the faces are so often obscured.
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Sometimes. Often it's used to mask the fact that the actor can't really fight.

In the case of super hero films a lot of the characters are wearing masks, so neither justification applies in that case. Then it's usually a poorly-executed "stylistic" choice to make things feel more "visceral" and/or make up for weak choreography.
 
Fancy Clown

Fancy Clown

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Oct 25, 2017
5,485
Quantum of Solace has really well choreographed action and great stunts, but the haphazard rapid editing really dampens a lot of it.
 
Bumble Bee

Bumble Bee

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Nov 1, 2017
64
I think the second unit is response for most of the action scenes in these films apart from Nolan as he films everything with his DOP.
 
jett

jett

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Oct 25, 2017
44,767
lmcfigs said:
well it's kind of weird how the third movie gets flack for the fight scenes, but I felt like Christopher Nolan didn't know how to direct fight scenes until the Dark Knight. The problem in that film is the choreography, not the direction.
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This head and shoulders fight style they made up for Batman is the dumbest.

Personally, Nolan still doesn't know how to direct, stage, edit or design action scenes as far as I'm concerned.
 
S1kkZ

S1kkZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,567
Zombegoast said:
For a series that is well known for it's lightsaber fights, The Last Jedi was trash

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scene was great, despite that one big fuck up (weapon just vanishes). scenes where a group attacks a single person almost never work. you always end up with people standing at the sidelines, doing nothing or waiting for their cue.
 
AMAGON

AMAGON

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Oct 25, 2017
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Most recently, Mile 22.

Cmon, trash editing with Iko in your movie!

Director should be banned from the industry.
 
Fancy Clown

Fancy Clown

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Oct 25, 2017
5,485
Waffles said:
This fight is shot and edited beautifully. This really isn't what OP is talking about.
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Yeah people get so hung up on micro-choreography details in these big multiperson fight scenes (especially stuff that really isn't even that noticeable unless you're specifically looking for it, and doesn't even seem like a big deal once taken as a part of the whole). Seven Samurai would get skewered by today's forum dwellers if they made a gif of every time someone died when a blade didn't fully connect, or of a sword aiming for another sword at the last second. Really feels like missing the forest for the trees.
 
zerosum

zerosum

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Oct 27, 2017
400
peteykirch said:
While not a movie, the Sand Snakes vs Jaime/Bronn fight was absolutely pathetic in Game of Thrones

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To me, most fights scenes are "good enough" in that they don't really bother me when I'm watching. Like, I know they aren't easy, and they get the point across.

BUT THIS SCENE... yeah... holy shit was it bad. I think it's more glaring that with a show with this much money thrown into production, you have some Kirk vs. Gorn level shit mixed in and it really takes you out.
 
Waffles

Waffles

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,802
Visanideth said:
Really well shot, horribly choreographed.

What it shows is terrible. How it shows it is beautiful.
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We'll agree to disagree. It think it's choreography is fine; not anywhere near the best, but certainly not trash. But OP isn't asking for choreography thoughts, so I had to say something.
 
lmcfigs

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
jett said:
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This head and shoulders fight style they made up for Batman is the dumbest.

Personally, Nolan still doesn't know how to direct, stage, edit or design action scenes as far as I'm concerned.
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yeah my bad I meant the dark knight rises. as in: they are all bad for fight scenes, but the third one is actually the least offensive - but gets most of the criticism.
 
Htown

Htown

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Oct 25, 2017
11,376
trikster40 said:
Unless they are Netflix Marvel directors. They get that shit right and say "screw cuts!"
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Cuts are not what make an action scene inherently good or bad. A fight scene can have a ton of rapid cuts, and it can be great, as long as the shots are framed correctly and each cut has a specific purpose in conveying an action.
 
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