Final Fantasy VII Remake Spoilers Thread, Part 2: Stay Kalm & Mosey Along (UPDATE: Ultimania’s list of four key story changes)

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

This is just a really confusing ending to experience as Aerith and Red XIII desperately want to change the future for reasons they never explain and Tifa and Barret just kind of go along for the ride without asking any questions about what could happen.

Does Final Fantasy 7 end badly for the party? Tifa could ask that.
Does Aerith want to change the future because she's afraid of death for some reason? Tifa could ask her motivations.
Does Advent Children's disease kill everyone?
Has Sephiroth already altered the future somehow? Aerith could explain that.
Does Aerith want to meet Zack again somehow?
Does Aerith have perfect vision of the future or imperfect?

It's just Aerith and Red XIII doing things that seem very bizarre as FF7 had a reasonably happy ending that they desperately want to change and everyone else goes along with the insanity that's happening.

Cloud just beat up a rich guy with a gun and a dog and now he's trying to kill Fate itself.

 

[Rats]

I noticed that also. She doesn't react enough.

Click to shrink...

The entire party basically no-sells the fact that fucking Sephiroth appeared out of nowhere and attacked Cloud. Nobody seems very interested in talking about it when they reunite. That whole chapter feels hastily thrown-together, it wouldn't shock me if it got a lot less love than everything else.

 

[Deleted member 6263]

Tifa is hiding her knowledge of stuff, just like in the original.

Click to shrink...

Naw dude, she legit forgot what Sephiroth did to her and her family...which is just a huge missed opportunity.

The entire party basically no-sells the fact that fucking Sephiroth appeared out of nowhere and attacked Cloud. That whole chapter feels hastily thrown-together, it wouldn't shock me if it got a lot less love than everything else.

Click to shrink...

I feel like no one really knew who Sephiroth even was until after Kalm. That's why him showing up didn't feel like a big deal to me or the party cause we (they, rather) didn't even know who he was.

 

[Visceir]

Recently finished the game again (3rd time now), still not a fan of that ending.
Trying to give them the benefit of doubt since the rest of the game was so fantastic but really can't get behind the introduction of time travel, timelines and all that.. bullshit IMHO.
Still looking forward to the sequel to see what's included and what's new. But if what's new is just gonna be a bunch of stuff related to Zack's adventures in another dimension or whatever I'll definitely not be anticipating it nearly as much.

You who actually are interested in the new direction, are you usually a fan of stories about alternative realities and timetravel? Because as someone who actually likes timetravel as a concept, I can probably count the number of timetravel stories that are done well on like 2 hands. That doesn't really give me confidence that Square of all companies can deliver on those concepts, even if the first remake was really impressive.

Anyway, don't wanna be a downer but just had to get it outta my system. Again lol

Click to shrink...

Don't really view it as a 'timetravel' story -- just seemed more like something used as a means to get to the point the characters are at now. Think it makes more sense to view the game as a sequel rather than a remake, all the previous games and movies happened and led to this point.

They managed to set up interesting premises and questions, I'm intrigued to see where things will go from here. More specifically the conflict between Aerith and Sephiroth.

But so much of the ending is still left open to interpretation. I think it's neat how they've created a situation where it's actually in the villain's best interest to keep the protagonist safe. Don't think there will be dimension hopping or timetravel, all the main players will be in the same reality (meaning Zack interacting with FF7R Cloud in some way) and think it's pretty much guaranteed that the eventual ending will greatly deviate from the original ending. A new ending for a new story.

 

[Hikari]

She has no reason to hide the fact that Sephiroth killed everybody she knew and destroyed her town.

Tifa's interactions (and lack thereof) with Sephiroth are by far the biggest flaw with this game's writing.

Click to shrink...

It will probably be fixed right at the start of next game.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The entire party basically no-sells the fact that fucking Sephiroth appeared out of nowhere and attacked Cloud. Nobody seems very interested in talking about it when they reunite. That whole chapter feels hastily thrown-together, it wouldn't shock me if it got a lot less love than everything else.

Click to shrink...

Now imagining a story based on the real world where the party is fighting a corporation and then Osama Bin Laden shows up and now he can fly and the party just has no reaction, lol.

 

[Rats]

I feel like no one really knew who Sephiroth even was until after Kalm. That's why him showing up didn't feel like a big deal to me or the party cause we (they, rather) didn't even know who he was.

Click to shrink...

Sephiroth is world famous. I'm sure Shinra used him as propaganda.

But besides that point, somebody should have at least been like "who the fuck was that?" The party reunites and it's like nothing at all happened on the bridge, like they simply got separated.

 

[DmckPower]

Square Enix is incapable of telling a story.

What an absolute mess at the end.

And here I was thinking this their chance to tell a story with some semblance of grounding, consequence and characterization.

What a trap this was because it started out what somewhat good.

Also its nice how RED XIII has ome of the worst lines in the series maybe. He had no reason to call Barret a 300 pound sack of shit during the chase sequence.

Yeah, the original FF7 will continue to hold its position , because this will just get worse and worse.

 

[Deleted member 6263]

Sephiroth is world famous. I'm sure Shinra used him as propaganda.

But besides that point, somebody should have at least been like "who the fuck was that?" The party reunites and it's like nothing at all happened on the bridge, like they just got separated.

Click to shrink...

yeah I mean everyone knows of Sephiroth but it wasn't until Kalm that the party (and you the player) truly saw why he was an actual big deal, which is why that whole ending chapter just felt flat.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Sephiroth is world famous. I'm sure Shinra used him as propaganda.

But besides that point, somebody should have at least been like "who the fuck was that?" The party reunites and it's like nothing at all happened on the bridge, like they simply got separated.

Click to shrink...

Yes, this scene is really confusing because again, this is a very mechanically complicated story with limited reactions from everyone other than the character with severe mental illness.

Is Cloud fighting Sephiroth there? Did he jump at nothing? Did he jump at a Sephiroth clone? Did he jump at a Sephiroth clone Sephiroth was possessing? Tifa reacting one way or another would help things a lot, but instead there's nothing and it feels very weird. You have no idea if that scene was real or in Cloud's head and the party's lack of reaction at all makes both options very strange.

Toriyama didn't spend 40,000 hours on Wall Market for Nomura to write these last two chapters in a day.

 

[tjlee2]

Jumping over firaga. Seems like there are tons of hidden dodges....

Click to shrink...

There is only one contextual dodge in the game. Otherwise the hitbox in the game honestly isn't half bad, and any projectile that isn't homing can be dodge with certain moves (dive kick is another).

After watching a bunch of streamers, they really put those HP weapon upgrades to fuck with noobies didn't they? So many completely wasted weapon builds on more HP because people think it's the most important and don't know you can level up HP Up materia.

Click to shrink...

Since you end up getting enough SP to grab anything it just ends up being inconsequential since normal mode it doesn't matter and hard mode you can grab everything you want. That's something I hope they change moving forward.

Also its nice RED XIII has ome of the worst lines in the series maybe. He had no reason to call Barret a 300 pound sack of shit during the chase sequence.

Click to shrink...

That's a localization issue. In Japanese it's along the lines of 'Not to mention the luggage is heavy'. Nanaki jabbing back after Barret commenting on his smile just a bit before is a pretty sensible back and forth for character interaction development.

 

[Rats]

That scene and its fallout are really the most frustrating part of the game to me. Despite my feelings on the ending it's internally consistent, even if the motivations fall a little flat. The bridge scene just doesn't make sense. I have to believe that sequence just fell through the cracks, development resources are finite, after all.

 

[JEH]

Square Enix is incapable of telling a story.

What an absolute mess at the end.

And here I was thinking this their chance to tell a story with some semblance of grounding, consequence and characterization.

What a trap this was because it started out what somewhat good.

Also its nice how RED XIII has ome of the worst lines in the series maybe. He had no reason to call Barret a 300 pound sack of shit during the chase sequence.

Yeah, the original FF7 will continue to hold its position , because this will just get worse and worse.

Click to shrink...

more like one of the best lines in the series

 

[tjlee2]

Yes, this scene is really confusing because again, this is a very mechanically complicated story with limited reactions from everyone other than the character with severe mental illness.

Is Cloud fighting Sephiroth there? Did he jump at nothing? Did he jump at a Sephiroth clone? Did he jump at a Sephiroth clone Sephiroth was possessing? Tifa reacting one way or another would help things a lot, but instead there's nothing and it feels very weird. You have no idea if that scene was real or in Cloud's head and the party's lack of reaction at all makes both options very strange.

Toriyama didn't spend 40,000 hours on Wall Market for Nomura to write these last two chapters in a day.

Click to shrink...

First person to comment after reaching Presidential suite is Tifa with "where is Sephiroth?", so it's safe to assume that's what everyone saw. Having her making the comment is also a weird choice due to how the first half of ch.17 went.

The added ability of the copies being able to appear as him is super weird. That wasn't in the original and based on how the copy turned back at top of the tower prior to Rufus fight, it's not an actual morph as it was with Jenova in the original. Using OG knowledge probably didn't help in interpreting some of the information but things could have been made clearer.

 

[Noctis]

more like one of the best lines in the series

Click to shrink...

Facts

 

[DmckPower]

more like one of the best lines in the series

Click to shrink...

Yeah, insulting some one who saved you and who is fighting a longside you "because lel insert anime humour" is amazing , likeable writing.

 

[Neiteio]

Yeah, insulting some one who saved you and who is fighting a longside "because lel insert anime humour" is amazing , likeable writing.

Click to shrink...

I just saw it as lighthearted verbal jousting, directed at the guy who had called him a lab rat dog.

The storytelling in Remake is seriously leagues better than the original. The characters have so much more, well, character.

 

[Zoe]

Yes, this scene is really confusing because again, this is a very mechanically complicated story with limited reactions from everyone other than the character with severe mental illness.

Is Cloud fighting Sephiroth there? Did he jump at nothing? Did he jump at a Sephiroth clone? Did he jump at a Sephiroth clone Sephiroth was possessing? Tifa reacting one way or another would help things a lot, but instead there's nothing and it feels very weird. You have no idea if that scene was real or in Cloud's head and the party's lack of reaction at all makes both options very strange.

Toriyama didn't spend 40,000 hours on Wall Market for Nomura to write these last two chapters in a day.

Click to shrink...

Barret at least recognizes Sephiroth as the guy from before (in Japanese: てめえ！さっきは, "You! Earlier--"), but given that reaction I wouldn't expect him to actually know who Sephiroth is.

 

[Neiteio]

Their main concern after the bridge was finding Cloud and escaping. Sephiroth had disappeared with Jenova's remains by that point, so any immediate threat is gone and irrelevant next to the more pressing matter of escaping Shinra.

 

[NateDog]

Hiding her reactions to the man who killed everyone she knew?

There's not a single point after Sephiroth shows up where Tifa looks furious or traumatized, I think Nomura/Nojima just straight up forgot to do that. She doesn't even look like she's hiding her emotions behind a poker face.

Click to shrink...

I mean they showed Nibelheim in flames, and Tifa crying over her father's corpse and then taking Sephiroth's masamune and looking for him. They didn't forget.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Their main concern after the bridge was finding Cloud and escaping. Sephiroth had disappeared with Jenova's remains by that point, so any immediate threat is gone and irrelevant next to the more pressing matter of escaping Shinra.

Click to shrink...

The guy ruined Cloud and Tifa's lives five years ago and now he's come back from the dead.

Aerith knows this guy kills her.

It's very weird, come on.

 

[Neiteio]

I mean they showed Nibelheim in flames, and Tifa crying over her father's corpse and then taking Sephiroth's masamune and looking for him. They didn't forget.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, they actually took the time to model Rodeo Tifa and everything for that Ch. 7 cutscene. She's even in the artbook that comes with the Deluxe edition of the game. So it seems unlikely they forgot. Perhaps in Part 2 it will be explained as Tifa blacking out traumatic memories.

 

[DmckPower]

I just saw it as lighthearted verbal jousting, directed at the guy who had called him a lab rat dog.

The storytelling in Remake is seriously leagues better than the original. The characters have so much more, well, character.

Click to shrink...

Quips and humour need to be timed and make sense within context and within character.

In this situation and for this character it made no sense and was obnoxious.

And why does Barret get to be a punching bag to begin with ?

 

[tjlee2]

The guy ruined Cloud and Tifa's lives five years ago and now he's come back from the dead.

Aerith knows this guy kills her.

It's very weird, come on.

Click to shrink...

I don't think that second statement can be reliably backed up yet.

Still very weird, not just for Tifa, but for Cloud too, considering that is the first physical presence in the game for him, after countless illusions.

 

[Neiteio]

The guy ruined Cloud and Tifa's lives five years ago and now he's come back from the dead.

Aerith knows this guy kills her.

It's very weird, come on.

Click to shrink...

Aerith doesn't necessarily know that he kills her. All she knows is he's an existential threat to the planet. That's the vague premonition she's getting from the voices of the planet.

 

[Rats]

Yeah, they actually took the time to model Rodeo Tifa and everything for that Ch. 7 cutscene. She's even in the artbook that comes with the Deluxe edition of the game. So it seems unlikely they forgot. Perhaps in Part 2 it will be explained as Tifa blacking out traumatic memories.

Click to shrink...

If she blocked that out she'd have no reason to join Avalanche. Sephiroth destroying her life is, like, her primary motivation.

 

[Neiteio]

Quips and humour need to be timed and make sense within context and within character.

In this situation and for this character it made no sense and was obnoxious.

And why does Barret get to be a punching bag to begin with ?

Click to shrink...

It worked fine. And Barret was the punching bag because he started his relationship with Red by calling him a lab rat dog, lol. Red didn't like that.

 

[tjlee2]

Quips and humour need to be timed and make sense within context and within character.

In this situation and for this character it made no sense and was obnoxious.

And why does Barret get to be a punching bag to begin with ?

Click to shrink...

He made multiple comments at Nanaki prior to this. This isn't an one sided exchange as you are making it out to be, and not at all hostile given what we know about the characters and their personalities.

 

[Zoe]

If she blocked that out she'd have no reason to join Avalanche. Sephiroth destroying her life is, like, her primary motivation.

Click to shrink...

She doesn't need to know that Sephiroth did it--Shinra company is enough justification.

 

[Neiteio]

If she blocked that out she'd have no reason to join Avalanche. Sephiroth destroying her life is, like, her primary motivation.

Click to shrink...

It could simply be that she blacked out the particular people but remembered Shinra as the instigator. I'm just saying they could resolve this with several story beats if they want.

 

[Hikari]

The guy ruined Cloud and Tifa's lives five years ago and now he's come back from the dead.

Aerith knows this guy kills her.

It's very weird, come on.

Click to shrink...

You're under the impression that the real Sephiroth showed himself when that never happened. Aerith only knows things because she hears the voices of the planet. She wasn't even sure about stepping through the portal but she did it anyway.

 

[Rats]

She doesn't need to know that Sephiroth did it--Shinra company is enough justification.

Click to shrink...

It could simply be that she blacked out the particular people but remembered Shinra as the instigator. I'm just saying they could resolve this with several story beats if they want.

Click to shrink...

I find this harder to swallow than believing the writers just made a misstep with one scene in the game. What would be the point?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

She doesn't need to know that Sephiroth did it--Shinra company is enough justification.

Click to shrink...

This is a very weird form of trauma she has where she remembers all the deaths, but none of the specifics (stab wounds with a giant sword) or how she nearly died and never pieced together the fact that Sephiroth vanished at the exact time as all of her family dying.

And she was Sephiroth's tour guide...

Her barely reacting to fighting the embodiment of fate just suggests Nomura didn't put in reactions of the characters to the insane events happening around them in the last two chapters.

 

[Neiteio]

I find this harder to swallow than believing the writers just made a misstep with one scene in the game. What would be the point?

Click to shrink...

Oh, it's entirely possible it's an oversight. I'm just saying how I think it might be explained or resolved in Part 2, regardless of whether its omission in Part 1 was an accident or by design.

 

[tjlee2]

I find this harder to swallow than believing the writers just made a misstep with one scene in the game. What would be the point?

Click to shrink...

I think it's possible to head canon to Tifa blaming everyhing on Shinra especially with how they did her flashback scene, but that part didn't flow well regardless. It's definitely an issue once you start getting the entire roster together, where if you skip reactions it feels weird since you are expecting characters to respond in a reasonable way, but if you have everyone that needs to react do it, then the scene drags on and the pacing goes down the hole. This will be something that's going to be difficult to get right on a case by case basis moving forward, espcially when we reach that 8-9 full roster range. They will need to juggle a lot of tools to make it work nicely.

 

[Rats]

I think it's possible to head canon to Tifa blaming everyhing on Shinra especially with how they did her flashback scene, but that part didn't flow well regardless. It's definitely an issue once you start getting the entire roster together, where if you skip reactions it feels weird since you are expecting characters to respond in a reasonable way, but if you have everyone that needs to react do it, then the scene drags on and the pacing goes down the hole. This will be something that's going to be difficult to get right on a case by case basis moving forward, espcially when we reach that 8-9 full roster range. They will need to juggle a lot of tools to make it work nicely.

Click to shrink...

I'm super curious how they handle the party going forward. In the original game it's just Cloud and two people experiencing most of the events. Bespoke dialogue and cutscenes seem unrealistic if they want to maintain this quality, full party everywhere could get extremely cumbersome, and I don't think anybody wants to see forced party composition.

 

[Neiteio]

I'm super curious how they handle the party going forward. In the original game it's just Cloud and two people experiencing most of the events. Bespoke dialogue and cutscenes seem unrealistic if they want to maintain this quality, full party everywhere could get extremely cumbersome, and I don't think anybody wants to see forced party composition.

Click to shrink...

Anything can work with thoughtful execution. I'm open to them predetermining our party in each scenario if it serves the story and allows them to create boss battles tailored around those characters. That was one of my favorite design approaches with Remake.

 

[ultima786]

poking fun at ff7 purists

 

[tjlee2]

I'm super curious how they handle the party going forward. In the original game it's just Cloud and two people experiencing most of the events. Bespoke dialogue and cutscenes seem unrealistic if they want to maintain this quality, full party everywhere will get extremely cumbersome, and I don't think anybody wants to see forced party composition.

Click to shrink...

I agree. It's one of the things I've been writing about as well, that the rest of the game will be much harder to adapt due to how the OG was handled. I think they will absolutely want to keep the entire roster together as much as possible with how much they obviously value character interaction (and I'm all for it), but I think a Plot A and Plot B (Wutai?) might be in-play for a section of the game it's easier to give new characters screen time. That being said, they have no ways around big events like Cosmo Canyon, Nibelheim, the temple, Forgotten City, etc. I think the entire roster will be there for those and they will just need to execute it well with various story telling tools.

 

[Nonagon]

This is a very weird form of trauma she has where she remembers all the deaths, but none of the specifics (stab wounds with a giant sword) or how she nearly died and never pieced together the fact that Sephiroth vanished at the exact time as all of her family dying.

And she was Sephiroth's tour guide...

Her barely reacting to fighting the embodiment of fate just suggests Nomura didn't put in reactions of the characters to the insane events happening around them in the last two chapters.

Click to shrink...

But isn't it always like this, even in the real world? If people had communicated more and earlier half of the drama and stories in films and in real life wouldn't exist.
There is also the point where when you missed the opportunity to talk about something, it usually comes back way later.

 

[JEH]

Yeah, insulting some one who saved you and who is fighting a longside you "because lel insert anime humour" is amazing , likeable writing.

Click to shrink...

Are we forgetting Barrett took the first jabs?

 

[Rats]

Anything can work with thoughtful execution. I'm open to them predetermining our party in each scenario if it serves the story and allows them to create boss battles tailored around those characters. That was one of my favorite design approaches with Remake.

Click to shrink...

This is one of the reasons I think the first half-ish of FF13 is criminally underrated. People hate how on-rails it is, but the game is impeccably balanced around each character's abilities.

I'd be into it if it's done well. I don't think there's a correct answer to this question, I just recognize that's it's a fairly monumental problem to solve.

 

[Neiteio]

This is one of the reasons I think the first half-ish of FF13 is criminally underrated. People hate how on-rails it is, but the game is impeccably balanced around each character's abilities.

I'd be into it if it's done well. I don't think there's a correct answer to this question, I just recognize that's it's a fairly monumental problem to solve.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I generally have confidence in this project. There are so many details in Remake that are superbly executed, to the point of seeming effortless. I think that if they apply that same level of thoughtfulness to Part 2, things will come together quite nicely.

It's going to be fun for us, too, thinking up the various ways they can approach this. :)

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

But isn't it always like this, even in the real world? If people had communicated more and earlier half of the drama and stories in films and in real life wouldn't exist.
There is also the point where when you missed the opportunity to talk about something, it usually comes back way later.

Click to shrink...

The reactions of Aerith and Cloud to Cloud crossdressing are layered and complex and make sense.

Feels like there should be as much of a reaction to the a mass murderer who killed the parents of 40% of the party returning from the dead, lol.

And the reaction to fighting fate itself.

 

[Sheng Long]

Yeah, insulting some one who saved you and who is fighting a longside you "because lel insert anime humour" is amazing , likeable writing.

Click to shrink...

You'd be surprised at how much that echoes real life. People who are those types of situations (military, first responders etc) do this all the time.

Is that what amine humor is like, because if it is, they sure didn't invent it.

 

[Rats]

The reactions of Aerith and Cloud to Cloud crossdressing are layered and complex and make sense.

Feels like there should be as much of a reaction to the a mass murderer who killed the parents of 40% of the party returning from the dead, lol.

And the reaction to fighting fate itself.

Click to shrink...

This is really the core of it. It's hard to hand-wave an instance of bad writing when everything that came before had orders of magnitude more nuance and heart. If I didn't love this game I wouldn't be so critical of the frustrating elements (and I wouldn't have hundreds of posts between the two spoiler threads, lol).

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

FF7R's humor is not really anime influenced, it's far more Marvel influenced.

I think the amount of humor is good though, there's a lot of serious moments too in the game.

 

[ultima786]

yeah I mean everyone knows of Sephiroth but it wasn't until Kalm that the party (and you the player) truly saw why he was an actual big deal, which is why that whole ending chapter just felt flat.

Click to shrink...

Correct. I wonder if people wouldn't be complaining about our motivations to chase Sephiroth if the game ended after the Kalm flashback.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Correct. I wonder if people wouldn't be complaining about our motivations to chase Sephiroth if the game ended after the Kalm flashback.

Click to shrink...

The motivations for chasing Sephiroth right now are fine, it's just that Tifa and Cloud's reactions should be far more extreme.

 

[Neiteio]

Correct. I wonder if people wouldn't be complaining about our motivations to chase Sephiroth if the game ended after the Kalm flashback.

Click to shrink...

I think Part 2 opening with the Nibelheim flashback will help develop Sephiroth and the shared trauma of Cloud and Tifa. Then, back in the present in Kalm, Tifa could open up about how she had been squelching her emotions when they encountered Sephiroth in Midgar. All of this could then form the emotional core for their cross-country trip back to Nibelheim.