Final Fantasy XV deserved better. Are we gonna have to wait 15 years for a remake, if ever?

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

There are no good JRPG writers left in the industry in general, and having a manga writer around to "consult" isn't going to help. Hell, having a professional writer consulting does nothing even outside of JRPGs - the new-gen Tomb Raider games had a novelist working on their scripts and their stories were still trash.

The problem with XV wasn't the writing, it was the completely slapdash management and the fact that S-E worked on the game for so long that large chunks of the team didn't even know what made it into the final game and what didn't. It wasn't a badly written story, it was a badly told story.

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It was both a badly written story and a badly told story.

It was largely incomprehensible, especially if you didn't watch Kingslaive or the anime shorts.

It was a mess. The whole game was. But a competent story with better writing could have distracted from the game's other major problems.

The game director and studio management all have their part to play in the game resulting in what it was, but FFXV's story isn't the only FF game with a shitty story in isolation. It's been an ongoing trend since FFX.

You can make excuses and blame it on the studio mamagment and the dev problems that continue to persist game after game over at Square Enix, but the fact is, the people working on the games creatively managing the projects, are failing.

They need better management, yes. But they also need far better writers.

And your point about JRPG writing is nonsense. I disagree entirely. But that's also rather subjective, so each to their own really.

 

[TheCed]

I know some of you are very fond of FFXV... but I think it's time to let it rest.

The game released in 2016, it was everywhere in 2017 and 2018 with collabs, crossovers and all those wonderful New Empire Ads. They milked way too much I just want to move on and talk about something fresh.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

It was both a badly written story and a badly told story.

It was largely incomprehensible, especially if you didn't watch Kingslaive or the anime shorts.

It was a mess. The whole game was. But a competent story with better writing could have distracted from the game's other major problems.

The game director and studio management all have their part to play in the game resulting in what it was, but FFXV's story isn't the only FF game with a shitty story in isolation. It's been an ongoing trend since FFX.

You can make excuses and blame it on the studio mamagment and the dev problems that continue to persist game after game over at Square Enix, but the fact is, the people working on the games creatively managing the projects, are failing.

They need better management, yes. But they also need far better writers.

And your point about JRPG writing is nonsense. I disagree entirely. But that's also rather subjective, so each to their own really.

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I didn't say studio management. I said management in general, and that also extends to PROJECT management. The whole company is run like a clown car. But at this point, after 30 years, I don't expect good writing out of JRPGs anymore, so it doesn't bother me that much unless it's Fire Emblem Fates-level bad.

XV still had a couple emotional beats that worked for me. It was a hugely, hugely flawed game, but it did way more for me than any FF game after IX, which is saying something. The genre is just kind of dead unless you play Yakuza.

 

[Mechaplum]

Writing video games is very different from writing manga or movies. It's not a skillset that translates one to one. Just because you can tell a story doesn't mean you can translate that into a 40 to 60-hour RPG.

As for Taro, again, even if they offered him the job he wouldn't take it. The stress would destroy him, and even if it didn't, I really don't want to play a Final Fantasy game that makes me suffer through its entire story two or three times just to get an ending while having a bunch of utterly generic anime cliches as its main characters. We already did that with Bravely Default and it sucked.

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Come on, I know you have a serious bone with Automata but that's simply not true.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Come on, I know you have a serious bone with Automata but that's simply not true.

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I've been playing Yoko Taro games since Drakengard 1 and I am sick to death of his boner for forced replays. He's done it in every single game he's been in charge of and I no longer have the patience for it.

 

[Mechaplum]

I've been playing Yoko Taro games since Drakengard 1 and I am sick to death of his boner for forced replays. He's done it in every single game he's been in charge of and I no longer have the patience for it.

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Well yeah i woulda hope that he will eventually get sick of it too, but I too think he'd be such a bad director for an FF entry.

 

[Yasuke]

A remake?

Let's just move on. The game got shafted. Hopefully they'll learn from it with its successors.

 

[Cathcart]

Give me a break. I'm fine with forgetting that game ever existed. It's beyond saving.

 

[Swift_Gamer]

No, this game is the worst mainline FF title, tied to FF2, imo, it needs to be forgotten.
They left content out on purpose and went with a predatory MTX model, overcharging for story bits for, like, 2 years after release.
FFXV and its model needs to be buried and forgotten.

 

[zeioIIDX]

I STILL haven't bought FF XV because everyone online continues to say it's kinda crud. I know ONE person in real life who played it and he loved it. So I don't know. Last FF I even played was XIII. I beat VI and VII, skipped VIII, played disc 1 of IX, the demo for X, had XI but couldn't play because we never had the PS2 HDD, definitely didn't play XII or XIV...But I was totally interested in XV. I just don't know though, I almost bought the Royal Edition recently but I'm not sure I wanna have my time wasted if the game just isn't any good.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I didn't say studio management. I said management in general, and that also extends to PROJECT management. The whole company is run like a clown car. But at this point, after 30 years, I don't expect good writing out of JRPGs anymore, so it doesn't bother me that much unless it's Fire Emblem Fates-level bad.

XV still had a couple emotional beats that worked for me. It was a hugely, hugely flawed game, but it did way more for me than any FF game after IX, which is saying something. The genre is just kind of dead unless you play Yakuza.

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Have you played the Persona games?

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Have you played the Persona games?

Click to shrink...

Yes. And their writing isn't good either. They want to be deep, but their writing is freshman year philosophy wrapped in dull anime cliches.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Yes. And their writing isn't good either. They want to be deep, but their writing is freshman year philosophy wrapped in dull anime cliches.

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Yikes.

I'm genuinely surprised by this response. Persona 3, 4 and 5 are the most recent ones i've played and I wouldn't even say the writing is trying to be deep at all, in fact it intentionally takes a more light-hearted approach to some sometimes pretty heavy themes. I found the writing and characters to be rather endearing.

I'm curious what you do consider "good writing" though. Persona games are some of the more enjoyable JRPGs i've played of late, and primarily because they're not trying to be deep at all, rather just fun, but more importantly, comprehensible and easy to follow very character driven stories.

For me, in what they set out to do, they achieve it mostly. FFXV on the other hand failed on every level for me. I got to the end of the game and cared less for the characters, the story and the fate of the world within the game than when I started. To elicit such a response is quite an achievement, and not in a good way.

 

[Leviathan]

This.
Let me care for the group. Every one of them was just one dimensional to the point where I felt more sympathy for the villains
Brooding anime pretty boy trope is not intwresting to me (probably age thing)

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There needs to be a hard rule that no stereotypical character type can compose more than 20 or 30% of an RPG party.

 

[Normal]

If someone says brooding while describing the XV cast, you know they didn't play the game at all lmao.
Oh they wear all black and look to be in their 20s? Must be broodig/emo.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Yikes.

I'm genuinely surprised by this response. Persona 3, 4 and 5 are the most recent ones i've played and I wouldn't even say the writing is trying to be deep at all, in fact it intentionally takes a more light-hearted approach to some sometimes pretty heavy themes. I found the writing and characters to be rather endearing.

I'm curious what you do consider "good writing" though. Persona games are some of the more enjoyable JRPGs i've played of late, and primarily because they're not trying to be deep at all, rather just fun, but more importantly, comprehensible and easy to follow very character driven stories.

For me, in what they set out to do, they achieve it mostly. FFXV on the other hand failed on every level for me. I got to the end of the game and cared less for the characters, the story and the fate of the world within the game than when I started. To elicit such a response is quite an achievement, and not in a good way.

Click to shrink...

I'll put it this way. Unless you count something like Yakuza 0, I haven't thought a JRPG story was well-written since the PSP remake of Tactics Ogre. The genre has been completely lacking in interesting writing for a very long time.

Persona 5 started out with a cool concept and then proceeded to do very little with it beyond "adults suck!" because the high school cast completely destroys any attempt at the themes of servitude and slavery that the game was announced to be built around.

 

[Rendering...]

FFXV's problem is that most of its content is front loaded. You get this giant open world to explore with your bros. The whole road trip segment, which is probably 70% of what the game has to offer, is very strong. Once the entire area opens up, it's easily one of my favorite parts of any Finale Fantasy game. I love the characters and their camaraderie. I love the feeling of traveling across this vast open country, with all kinds of interesting things to see and do, at any pace you like. I think this portion of the game has little to improve upon after the Royal Edition's enhancements. This part makes the whole experience worthwhile.

But then, just after you arrive at a cool new place and think you're going to be treated to more cool places as the story kicks into high gear, it's as though you were dropped into a tube. You fall past the narrative at high speed until you hit a big roadblock. It seems like the developers ran out of time in the middle of production and had no choice but to funnel players into a linear summary of what the rest of the game would have been.

Except, there's that roadblock I mentioned. Right when the story seems like it's building steam again, you have to make a bizarre extended pit stop in an area that's like the reverse of all the design choices that made the rest of the game enjoyable. You're made to roam corridors, small rooms, and big monochromatic areas for several hours, and your combat abilities are replaced by a new mechanic that's not nearly good enough to justify how long you have to rely on it. This whole chapter felt like a different game.

In order to fix FFXV, the devs would have to rework or cut that entire area, create probably three large expansions' worth of content, and weld it onto the first half of the existing game. It could be done--the Royal Edition's finale is the perfect example of how to flesh out the story in a place that badly needed to be something more. But I think it's all moot now. As much as I'd love to play a fully realized version of FFXV, the Royal Edition plus the existing expansions are likely the best we're going to get.

It's really a shame. The first part was so damn promising. I still enjoy playing it. I can't help but think what the game could have been with a more focused production.

 

[warcrow]

I'll say it out right, FFXV is one of my favorite games I played. I think the plot is there and it's really, really good. Noctis as fugitive crown prince, taking over the kingdom from his dad, etc. But the story and scene to scene continuity needed work. I'll admit, it has flaws. I really think if the game stayed in the oven for 2 more years we would have had a perfect Final Fantasy. The whole production and the troubled development from FF X13 Versus is tragic. The whole thing makes me sad because honestly...

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Thanks for posting this! I've had this game in my backlog and cannot seem to crack it open, so your enthusiasm helps. If I were to play it, do you have any tips to help smooth the process?

Like, configurations you found useful, tactics, powers, leveling, etc?

 

[Normal]

Thanks for posting this! I've had this game in my backlog and cannot seem to crack it open, so your enthusiasm helps. If I were to play it, do you have any tips to help smooth the process?

Like, configurations you found useful, tactics, powers, leveling, etc?

Click to shrink...

Get the air dance/step skill as soon as possible.

 

[Mekanos]

I'll put it this way. Unless you count something like Yakuza 0, I haven't thought a JRPG story was well-written since the PSP remake of Tactics Ogre. The genre has been completely lacking in interesting writing for a very long time.

Persona 5 started out with a cool concept and then proceeded to do very little with it beyond "adults suck!" because the high school cast completely destroys any attempt at the themes of servitude and slavery that the game was announced to be built around.

Click to shrink...

What games - not just RPGs, but in general - released this generation do you think have good writing? Genuinely curious.

 

[Spedfrom]

FF XV deserved to be the game that FF Versus XIII was also meant to be. But there was no one capable of turning that vision into reality. Not Nomura, not Tabata, not anyone had what it takes.

Let's move on. I hope FF XVI is in the making and that they'll announce it only when it is 12 months, or less, from being released.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

This game will never be remade. Don't dream like that lol

 

[J_ToSaveTheDay]

The game may have come away with solid sales but I don't think it has the backing to support a remake beyond the mobile remake (lol).

As fans of FFXV, this is all we're ever going to get.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

What games - not just RPGs, but in general - released this generation do you think have good writing? Genuinely curious.

Click to shrink...

Red Dead 2 is probably the best current-gen example I can think of overall at least as far as "big" games are concerned. It might not be the most surprising or unique story in the universe but the execution there is pretty damn good. It managed to make someone like me (who was fully prepared to hate Arthur Morgan) actually give a shit about him.

I'm sure there are indie titles that would also fit the bill, but I don't play enough indie games to have good examples.

 

[BocoDragon]

If someone says brooding while describing the XV cast, you know they didn't play the game at all lmao.
Oh they wear all black and look to be in their 20s? Must be broodig/emo.

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I would say the characters as they were unveiled in the mid-2000s were absolutely tapping into a brooding emo image. It's peak mid-2000s edge. Noctis sitting on a throne looking depressed/bored like a teenager listening to Evanescence in 2005.

In game they were more of a happy go lucky bro team. But I wouldn't blame people for looking at the characters at a glance and getting emo vibes from them. I think it was there in the original visual design of the characters.

 

[Cornbread78]

The pieces were all there for this to be a masterpiece, but the story-telling was so damn horrid that it's impossible to look past.

-They based an entire ship with scenes from their childhood and didn't place the two together until it was two late... literally and figuratively.
- The most emotional scene, which would have had much greater weight during the final chapter was shown in the closing credits
- They told bits and pieces of the game story through the movie and the anime series.
The time line felt so off at times, I mean, time skip? WTF.....



Now, the "bro-trip" was awesome
the graphics were awesome
the gameplay was pretty awesome
The time to get from point A to point B sucked
The world was awesome



but that Story telling; there's no way to fix that without doing a complete remake....

 

[Deleted member 8257]

Thanks for posting this! I've had this game in my backlog and cannot seem to crack it open, so your enthusiasm helps. If I were to play it, do you have any tips to help smooth the process?

Like, configurations you found useful, tactics, powers, leveling, etc?

Click to shrink...

Get airstep and chainlinking skills. Also make one of your party members a healer and has advanced healing skills. Will come in handy in latter dungeons.

Other than that, it's pretty fun leveling system. Try them out depending on your playstyle. There is no right way or wrong way.

 

[Trisc]

FFXV is a disjointed mess of great ideas executed to varying degrees of "this is shit" (questing) to "I can tolerate this even though it lacks and substance" (combat).

The best thing it's got going for it is the soundtrack and visual design. That stuff is stellar. Everything beyond that is up in the air.

 

[XodiousBlack]

Loved this game even with its storytelling flaws. I loved the mix or realism and fantasy more than any of the rest and the combat was also some of my favorite (especially in the visual department). With that said I'd personally rather just have a sequel. And yes I too am in the minority (on resetera...)

 

[Mekanos]

Red Dead 2 is probably the best current-gen example I can think of overall at least as far as "big" games are concerned. It might not be the most surprising or unique story in the universe but the execution there is pretty damn good. It managed to make someone like me (who was fully prepared to hate Arthur Morgan) actually give a shit about him.

I'm sure there are indie titles that would also fit the bill, but I don't play enough indie games to have good examples.

Click to shrink...

I see. I haven't played Red Dead 2 so I can't comment on it, but for me I enjoy the Persona games because they have entertaining characters and emotional beats that land. The plot of these games aren't particularly ambitious but I don't think they need to be.

Personally, at the risk of causing heresy on a video game forum, I think the medium is still in its adolescence phase when it comes to serious storytelling. There is nothing as well written and layered as the best novels, films, and television. To me it's kind of like comic books - it's great for fun tropey genre storytelling, but attempts to "elevate" the medium often fall flat for me in their self importance.

That sounds damning but I love genre fiction. I think the MGS series has extremely ambitious storytelling but it's also batshit crazy and all over the place - and that's part of the fun. In the context of Persona at least, as basically a high school anime aimed at teenagers in game form, I find those games entertaining. I like the characters and want to follow them, cliches and all. You might disagree, but I think that's as good of writing as anyone can hope for in any medium.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I see. I haven't played Red Dead 2 so I can't comment on it, but for me I enjoy the Persona games because they have entertaining characters and emotional beats that land. The plot of these games aren't particularly ambitious but I don't think they need to be.

Personally, at the risk of causing heresy on a video game forum, I think the medium is still in its adolescence phase when it comes to serious storytelling. There is nothing as well written and layered as the best novels, films, and television. To me it's kind of like comic books - it's great for fun tropey genre storytelling, but attempts to "elevate" the medium often fall flat for me in their self importance.

That sounds damning but I love genre fiction. I think the MGS series has extremely ambitious storytelling but it's also batshit crazy and all over the place - and that's part of the fun. In the context of Persona at least, as basically a high school anime aimed at teenagers in game form, I find those games entertaining. I like the characters and want to follow them, cliches and all. You might disagree, I think that's as good of writing as anyone can hope for in any medium.

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Video games are in a weird spot. We both want them to be these singularly-driven auteur experiences, but also we want these massive megacorporations to make them, and those two mindsets are generally not compatible, especially after Ken Levine blew up his own team and Konami fired Kojima. I'm curious if we'll ever really reach the point where games will be comparable to literature, or if the nature of the industry being so blatantly capitalistic will always hold AAA titles back from reaching some kind of artistic next level, at least as far as writing is concerned.

 

[GSG]

There's no chance in hell that XV is being remade in 15 years or ever.

 

[mas8705]

I doubt we're going to see a remake. Mind you that if we are so lucky to see those extra DLC stories come in the future, that'd be nice, but considering the circumstances, I think FF15's time will be up and remain that way for a long time.

 

[Kneefoil]

I actually just beat FFXV yesterday. Loved most of my time with it, but I think what FFXV really deserved was being split into 2 or 3 games. I still think it's a great game, but it also feels like one of the most incomplete games I've ever played.

I get that they needed to ship when they did, but everything after getting the boat feels kind of half-assed. You go to all of these new places that could be a joy to explore, but you barely get to do anything in them. I liked the story too, but some things ended up being poorly explained, and other times those things were only explained in bizarre places, like as text during loading screens.

I really would want a version that reaches FFXV's full potential. I suppose the only way to do that really would be a remake at this point, although realistically I'm expecting only ports and remasters. I love the music, I love the world, and most of all, I love the characters, but the game falls short on so many areas. I just want more, and although they couldn't have been enough, the cancellation of the three DLC episodes still hurts.

 

[Mekanos]

Video games are in a weird spot. We both want them to be these singularly-driven auteur experiences, but also we want these massive megacorporations to make them, and those two mindsets are generally not compatible, especially after Ken Levine blew up his own team and Konami fired Kojima. I'm curious if we'll ever really reach the point where games will be comparable to literature, or if the nature of the industry being so blatantly capitalistic will always hold AAA titles back from reaching some kind of artistic next level, at least as far as writing is concerned.

Click to shrink...

The closest comparison I think is directors like Christopher Nolan. Whether or not someone thinks he's a good director/writer, you can tell he enters each project with his own voice and his own story to tell. These projects also become 100-200 million dollar budget movies with enough mass appeal to be big successes. Of course not every director/writer can be a Nolan, but I think it's just finding an auteur that can speak to the masses yet still feel like they come from a place of authenticity.

The flip side is every Uwe Boll of the world thinks they're a Nolan too, so who knows.

 

[Hikari]

Uh no.... it will never happen. The super anticipated dlc was all cancelled which absolutely makes me furious but XV was a mess to begin with. Cut continents from the so called "biggest map of all time in games", cut 2nd open world, cut lots of cutscenes, the original plot from Versus XIII according to leaks was very dark and had Stella die right off the bat. XV severely toned everything down from that. Nomura was too ambitious in his ideas per usual and makes messy games which caused the downfall of XV in terms of story and gameplay. Sure, it's playable but it's not exactly super great.. If you want a proper FF story these days there is really nothing but XIV to keep me impressed.

 

[Phil me in]

I find it incredibly hard to understand why people say this is their favourite game of the gen or the best ff they've ever played.

Opinions aside this game came out a year after the Witcher and just look at the difference lmao.

The game is objectively mediocre and doesn't excel in anything other than its music. The battle system can be fun but it's far too easy and for a more action based gameplay, it doesn't take much skill to beat the game.

It's a bad final fantasy game and not even a great open world game if it didn't have the ff branding.

 

[Timeaisis]

Remaking a game that came out 2 years ago? What?

 

[spman2099]

It doesn't need a remake, but they could do a directors cut (it would make the most sense to release it for the next gen of consoles)... Fill in the many gaps, hopefully increase the framerate (which would hopefully help the combat feel more responsive), improve the painfully bare bones quests, develop the characters better, give the first half of the game a little more focus, and expand the last half of the game's environments to give them more breadth and depth (instead of being a series of corridors).

That being said... that is still a lot of work. Primarily because the game isn't really finished. Unfortunately, I don't think we will ever get a FFXV that feels finished. It is a very rough game that has a lot of promise, but I don't think Square wants to put anything more into it. It is what it is, for better or for worse.

 

[Hzsn724]

So you're saying that the game is still a Trainwreck? I beat it when it came out and it was absolute trash. But people were telling me it's better now because of the updates, extra episodes, the royal edition content, season pass content...... And that I should play it again.

But if it's still what I played when it came out and the extra content is bogus then I'm not even gonna waste my time. Been thinking about the plat so might just boot up my save data instead of playing through the horrendous story again.

 

[daninthemix]

Having just finished it I get overall the impression of a bucket of inconsistent and often incoherent ideas filled with whatever the developers thought was in vogue at the time, which could be any time during the last 10 years or however long it took to make.

An open world! (sort of) Dialogue choices! (they don't do anything) Seamless action combat! (it's a complete mess, mostly you kind of hold one button and flail around a lot)

I can't say it improved on FF13 much, at least for me. I consider them both worth playing, but just barely.