Finland, Norway, Sweden: the trilogy of "happy northern countries"?

[fireflame]

This is something iI want to talk about because medias talk about it every year. Typicallly, I will hear something like"our economy isn't good, we have problems in our schools,etc, just look at how Finalnd, Sweden, and Norway are doing!. Among common examples about what makes those countries the "good students" of UE: schools with good results, with a modern and effective pedagogy that does not rely on just marks and performances; solid economy, good welfare; jails wherepeople can play gaming consoles and where cops talk with prisoners in friendly way, to the point prisoners can even used metal knives to eat without it being seen as a threat.

Even when I was a teenager, our history teacher told us, "economy is so great they let the cars open because no one will steal them, they are even a bit too happy and this is why there are suicides there."

So I was wondering to those living in those countries, where is the reality and do you feel that your country is doing very well?
It seems there is a genuine belief that your countries are what we should all be, and i sometimes wonder if my life would be happier there.

 

[Vas]

Trio

 

[Chairman Yang]

Trio

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Triumvirate

 

[Vas]

Triumvirate

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Threeocracy

 

[subpar spatula]

Prequel Northern Countries were better.

 

[Carn]

I'm Dutch (Netherlands is ranked #5 I believe in that happiness report thingy that got published) and while nothing is perfect, I'm really glad that I live here. We do lack some epic nature and it's pretty crowded tho. Only people I know that emigrated did it either because of a relationship, a very specific job or the nature/population argument.

 

[CaviarMeths]

jails wherepeople can play gaming consoles and where cops talk with prisoners in friendly way, to the point prisoners can even used metal knives to eat without it being seen as a threat.

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It's actually a pretty fascinating concept that if you treat people with humanity, then they will behave more like humans.

 

[Addi]

You need Denmark on that list too.

I live in Norway, but your question is so open that I don't really know where to start.
But yeah, it's pretty good here, most of things you hear are true (but not that suicide rates are caused by too much happiness, WTF?)
I'd wish there was less conformity and more diversity here though. It's also a young country so art and culture isn't necessarily that highly regarded, people love sports and simple food.
I get jealous of countries with rich cultures like France and Italy when I travel there. Then again, we travel a lot so I think things are slowly getting better and we are becoming more worldly. Sweden and Denmark are bit ahead of us in that regard, we are more of the recluse of the family.
The weather is not the best, but most people don't live in the parts where it's night half the year so it's not as bad as people imagine.

 

[Kapus]

they are even a bit too happy and this is why there are suicides there.

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Can someone explain this to me?

 

[Arebours]

At some level I think it's a bit unfair to compare 5-10 m population countries to 100+ million ones. There are things you can and can't do at such scales. It'd be interesting to see how the Nordic countries compare to individual provinces/states in much larger countries.

Sweden is pretty good though. For me the main thing is that I have great confidence in our justice system. America looks like a medieval country by comparison.
However, if you want to live in a real city, like public transport to be reliable and priced humanely, not a fan of winter, crave strong communities and the social life that goes with that.. then Sweden will let you down. I prefer my life here in japan but sweden is pretty darn good. Also sweden is the worst country I've been/lived in for dining out.

 

[Addi]

Can someone explain this to me?

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I actually had to google that a bit and it seems like the more egalitarian places have a higher suicide rate.
If everybody in a society is supposed to be happy, you can end up putting a lot of pressure on yourself if your not.
You see everybody around you keeping a facade of success and happiness, but you aren't able to keep up.
I'm not sure I'd put that solely on "happiness", but also on homogeneity and conformity (it definitely feels like there's a "correct" way to live here).

 

[Horp]

I'm from Sweden. I love this country. I'm very happy.

 

[sph3re]

I'd love to move to one of those countries (probably Norway), but I feel like I should vacation there first. Maybe this summer.

 

[Honey Bunches of Oats]

I'm American and pretty fucking patriotic, but I see the Scandinavian model (this is still a thing, right?) as the ideal.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

My wife and I spent our honeymoon traveling from our home in the US to Iceland, Norway, Sweden, and Finland for about two weeks total. We decided to completely "wing it," so we booked a flight out to Iceland and a flight home from Finland, and left it to ourselves and our backpacks to make the way across. Was a freaking blast.

We basically agreed that everyone in Iceland is beautiful, everyone in Norway is super nice, all the food and free entertainment in Sweden is incredible, and Finland has the most chill and lax atmosphere imaginable. I mean, yeah, overall everyone seemed supremely happy and polite. But I'd argue the Swedes were the most accommodating - truly, just wonderfully nice people and everywhere (at least in Stockholm) felt very safe and inviting.

But - at the end of the day - we were tourists. I don't really subscribe to the more "up and coming" notion that the USA is some terrible place. As someone who has been fortunate to travel quite a bit, the USA has A LOT going for it. But that's not the question you asked. I'm just cognizant that every developed country is going to have things to admire and aspire to, but also room for improvement elsewhere.

 

[Madison]

I'm American and pretty fucking patriotic, but I see the Scandinavian model (this is still a thing, right?) as the ideal.

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I'm from South America and I think the same thing. With all of its possible faults, I see the Nordic model as the best chance humanity has of developing equally.

I wish I lived in Norway or Sweden, It would be cool to wear feminine clothes without fearing for my life.

 

[loquaciousJenny]

I wish I lived in a happy northern country where cycling is popular :c

 

[ncsoft]

Suicide is not exclusively a first world problem but it is really prevalent in the first world, depression simply doesn't care if you're well fed and have health care coverage, if you're depressed, you're depressed. So we're probably better off treating suicide separately from general well-being of the population.

 

[datwr]

I can only speak for Sweden here, but my possibly cynic view is that we are in a very steady decline. There is problems everywhere.

Alt-right in the government, and marching on the streets.
Healthcare is a mess, lack of nurses and "the most expensive hospital in the world" is totally not working and is a failure.
Gun violence is increasing, more death shootings and use of hand granades.
Problems in the police force, lack of people and low education levels I think it was.
Immigration problems, and with that I mean we can't take care of everybody arriving here.
Schooling is getting very bad, we are behind other Nordic countries and have a lack of teachers.

To not talk about all the Russian interference conspiracy theories I have, but that's not really relevant.

Don't missunderstand me, there is a lot great things in Sweden, Healthcare and studying is still "free" among other things.
But please don't talk about Sweden as some sort of utopia, I honestly believe there is no such country out there.

 

[tsampikos]

Small homogeneous countries tend to have an easier time getting things done.

 

[sfortunato]

I lived in Sweden and Denmark, and travelled in Norway, Iceland and Finland.

Under a welfare point of view, they are pretty much perfect. Everything is free and works pretty fine. As other people mentioned, this is possible because of low population and a state built on welfare since the post-war.

Nature is amazing and I like the fact that, on average, people are really libertine and don't care about other people. They let you live the life you want.

As downsides, culture, food and history are not very good (as an Italian, this is striking), even if music is amazing (The Knife, Royksopp, Bjork, Sigur Ros...). Also, those countries are not very diverse and don't have a troubling political scene meaning that people are a bit boring for my tastes. Sometimes I feel people are "too simple" (not in a derogative way). The fact that the welfare state is doing everything for them make them a bit lazy (which works in their country but don't work when they travel abroad). An example is finding a house during university. In Italy I had to look for ads on websites and the streets, call people, arrange visits, spend a lot of time in bargaining the rent, and so on, which is time consuming but also a process of learning. In Sweden, I got a flat for a really low price close to the university the day after I arrived, during a "accommodation day" arranged by the municipality. Pretty amazing but I'm lucky I could also experience the search in Italy.

 

[RM8]

They also look basically perfect to me. I'm sure people living there are actually aware of the problems in those countries, but nowhere else on earth looks as good regarding quality of life. It's something my country (Mexico, which I love, and where I want to settle down) will absolutely never be.

 

[Lappe]

Even when I was a teenager, our history teacher told us, "economy is so great they let the cars open because no one will steal them, they are even a bit too happy and this is why there are suicides there."

So I was wondering to those living in those countries, where is the reality and do you feel that your country is doing very well?

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I'm 30 years old, and have been living in Finland for 24 years now, my father is British and mother Finnish.

As a kid we never, ever locked our front door, even when we we're on vacations or something. And that wasn't even that unusual, so there is a truth to that.
The problems we have in our countries are really miniscule compared to the big picture, so It's pretty easy to live here.
You've got "free" healthcare, education, social-security and many other benefits that help you in life, If you as a family or individual aren't getting along.

And one thing I would love to see is free public transport. That's a must, and not really a big expense on a city level. It could get people moving more around the county for jobs, and just move more. Things feel to stagnant.

And the stance on weed is something that is going to annoy me until they change it, you don't go to prison or anything you just get a fine and a "H" marking, that you've done drugs at some point of your life. But I would love to see it decriminalized.

The prison system is something that I get asked about a lot, and a lot of foreigners don't seem to understand, that it's more about helping that individual to get his/her shit together, than a literal punishment. People usually do crimes out of need, not because they want to.

I like the fact that the air here is super clean, and I can literally just walk to a forest for a walk, and spend hours there seeing no one.

But my favourite thing in the summer is the Finnish Archipelago, It's just so beautiful, and I love going Island hopping for a week or so with buddies:

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Yeah, I've been looking at Swedens political climate for some time now, and It does seem quite restless at some times.

 

[Cecil]

I live in Sweden, and no, leaving your car unlocked is not a better idea here, then in any other country. :D

We're not the perfect county in any way, but it's relatively good.

Even though we now have a whole political party of mini Trump-wannabees, that unfortunately have gained too much ground. :(

 

[Primal Sage]

Denmark here. We have our problems and we complain like everywhere else. But then we take a look at everywhere else and usually go "oh... We definetely have it a lot better here".

Free healthcare and education is a fantastic thing. We get paid for taking education actually.

 

[Jack Remington]

It's a duo since Finland is fake (there is a Finnish culture and language obviously, but the landmass does not exist), but otherwise I'd agree.

 

[MikeProtagonist]

There are problems of course, but I wouldn't trade living in Sweden for anywhere else.

 

[hjort]

I'm from Sweden, and I consider myself happy (these days) but there are obviously many here who suffer, just like anywhere else. Like others have already posted, we do have our share of problems, the biggest one in my opinion being the rising popularity and acceptance of fascists and nationalists, including having them represented in parliament. Sweden in general doesn't have the same inclusive and humane attitudes that it used to. Or rather, not to the same extent as it used to, and this can be seen in the rise of right-wing sentiments in general.

 

[How About No]

I wanna move to Finwayden

 

[Lime]

Sweden, Norway, and Denmark also had the privilege of colonialism, and they happily benefit from cozening up to past and current global imperial powers. Then you also have to deal with the fact that they are not entirely equal and there is a lot of people still left behind. Then also deal with the fact that they/we have some of the highest producers of e-waste, among other consumption-based aspects. And then there's of course all the rampant racism where the white majority have never learned to be aware of white supremacy, so all three countries, but especially Denmark, is pretty reactionary whenever a brown or black person has something to say about race.

But it's still better than the frankly astoundingly horrific society that believes in 'bootstrap logic', access to guns, every man for himself, a huge military invading and bombing other countries, militarized police forces, prison industrial complexes, rampant unregulated capitalism, settler colonialism, the genocide of native Americans and enslavement of the African diaspora, massive energy consumption, no healthcare, and would rather leave poor people dying in the streets than pay a few dollars more in taxes.

 

[fanboi]

What makes Sweden great is the weather... since we have to deal with +25-30 C in the summer and -25-30C in the winter.

It hardens you, molds you into a being of pure mellanmjölk.

 

[Deleted member 9237]

Happiness isn't the first word that comes to mind when I think of Finns hah.
I live abroad now and I don't think the Scandinavian countries are all that different from the German (or Dutch) speaking countries, so I don't know why they're singled out. The main thing I miss are the long summer nights, and the abundance of nature, which has nothing to do with the society.

What makes Sweden great is the weather... since we have to deal with +25-30 C in the summer and -25-30C in the winter.

It hardens you, molds you into a being of pure mellanmjölk.

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Last summer it was basically never over 25 C

 

[Deleted member 10234]

There are issues of course, but I'm glad I grew up in Finland and I don't have burning desire to move away from here (but I'm also not entirely opposed to it).

I'm from a poor family yet here I am working as a software engineer with an MSc degree and no debt. And I didn't need to be the best of the best to get here, just "good enough" like any other kid.

 

[FireFistAce]

It's actually a pretty fascinating concept that if you treat people with humanity, then they will behave more like humans.

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A shame about their victims though.

 

[Tracygill]

The nordics weren't always this way. Here's a list of labour related strikes in Sweden:
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_över_arbetskonflikter_i_Sverige

 

[Deleted member 9237]

A shame about their victims though.

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Treating inmates like shit doesn't help the victims either

 

[Trickster]

I lived in Sweden and Denmark, and travelled in Norway, Iceland and Finland.

Under a welfare point of view, they are pretty much perfect. Everything is free and works pretty fine. As other people mentioned, this is possible because of low population and a state built on welfare since the post-war.

Nature is amazing and I like the fact that, on average, people are really libertine and don't care about other people. They let you live the life you want.

As downsides, culture, food and history are not very good (as an Italian, this is striking), even if music is amazing (The Knife, Royksopp, Bjork, Sigur Ros...). Also, those countries are not very diverse and don't have a troubling political scene meaning that people are a bit boring for my tastes. Sometimes I feel people are "too simple" (not in a derogative way). The fact that the welfare state is doing everything for them make them a bit lazy (which works in their country but don't work when they travel abroad). An example is finding a house during university. In Italy I had to look for ads on websites and the streets, call people, arrange visits, spend a lot of time in bargaining the rent, and so on, which is time consuming but also a process of learning. In Sweden, I got a flat for a really low price close to the university the day after I arrived, during a "accommodation day" arranged by the municipality. Pretty amazing but I'm lucky I could also experience the search in Italy.

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Come on man, most nations history is lacking compared to Italy, not really a fair judging metric :P

 

[hydrophilic attack]

ok, time to do some swedesplaining

unless you're part of the, say, top 10%, life will be objectively better in the scandinavian social democratic countries

free higher education, public health-care, 18 month parental leave, public child daycare extensive public transportation, public elderly care, public unemployment and disability insurance and so on and so forth

the suicide thing is a myth though. it's based on a speech by president eisenhower in 1960 where he said that sin, nudity, drunkenness and the world's highest suicide rate in sweden was caused by excessive government welfare policies. problem was, that "world's highest suicide rate" number was completely made up

in those days, the american right was so afraid of the swedish social democracy success story as a superior alternative to american capitalism that they made up bullshit to discredit it. these days instead, the american right makes up bullshit about the consequences of our immigration policies. the more things change, the more they stay the same

 

[FireFistAce]

Treating inmates like shit doesn't help the victims either

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You don't have to treat them like shit. Not giving them playstations is not equal to treating them like shit. And them being punished does help the victims - them knowing that justice has been served does help.

 

[FireFistAce]

Come on man, most nations history is lacking compared to Italy, not really a fair judging metric :P

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Isn't Italian food just pasta and pizza? :D

 

[Sphinx]

I think North European countries thrive because they have honest people.

so for example, some guy feeling underpaid in his job in one of those countries will go and say "I feel underpaid" to their boss and expect a negotiation.

in Mexico (where I come from) the same guy would probably just not do his job properly or worse just steal money if the opportunity arises, seeing as he's not only underpaid, but overworked and his needs won't ever be heard anyways....

 

[Perzeval]

It hardens you, molds you into a being of pure mellanmjölk.

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Haha!

 

[rostad]

One of the things I love about Sweden was the "Du-reform" in the 60s.
Some boss-guy was interviewed on national television and was said you don´t need to call me "Mr" as I am not above any of my workers. After that no boss in Sweden liked to be looked like he/she was above their workers and from that day we just stopped calling our bosses by a "fancy title" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen

I think this did a lot for the attitudes we have today in Sweden and Scandinavia

 

[hydrophilic attack]

At some level I think it's a bit unfair to compare 5-10 m population countries to 100+ million ones. There are things you can and can't do at such scales. It'd be interesting to see how the Nordic countries compare to individual provinces/states in much larger countries.

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i don't really buy this argument tbqh. the entire point of an insurance is that the more people risk is distributed over, the better you can provide for people who have bad luck from those who have stayed healthy/employed/whatever. you can view government systems like public health-care and public unemployment support as an insurance covering lots of people. the larger the risk pool, the more efficient the insurance will be

Also sweden is the worst country I've been/lived in for dining out

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where and when did you live here? in stockholm the restaurant scene has improved IMMENSELY over the last ten years. the rest of the country is still not great in this regard, but stockholm is very good for eating out these days

 

[Deleted member 24550]

As a European the only place I witnessed people leaving keys in the ignition as they went for grocery shopping was the USA. So YMMV. In addition it should be noted that those happiness indices are either based on a number of criteria (like gini coefficient correlates) that favor welfare states, or are based on self-report (which is better but) which can be prone to cultural biases and could favor homogeneous countries. In general though I think there's truth to the northwest European welfare states being the happiest, if nothing else because in general the population has the least amount of stress for their future livelihood and health. And I think that's probably the most important democratizing and positive factor for a person's mental wellbeing.

Sweden and Finland do have higher than average (for European standards) suicide rates, I reckon because of the long dark and cold, which is why for all their social benefits I could never see myself living there, because I already consider my own country too dark and cold.

 

[Deleted member 24550]

I think North European countries thrive because they have honest people.

so for example, some guy feeling underpaid in his job in one of those countries will go and say "I feel underpaid" to their boss and expect a negotiation.

in Mexico (where I come from) the same guy would probably just not do his job properly or worse just steal money if the opportunity arises, seeing as he's not only underpaid, but overworked and his needs won't ever be heard anyways....

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That's actually a really good observation that now has me rethinking some things. Can you correlate the level of directness in a culture to general well-being?

 

[Engell]

Think an important thing is that in school parts of the teaching is to get practical experience with what you learn, so that it isn't just theory or text from a book.
Also forcing kids to work together in groups and share responsibility both in work and grades.
And ofc. everyone basically having a somewhat equal chance at getting a good education.

 

[fanboi]

Happiness isn't the first word that comes to mind when I think of Finns hah.
I live abroad now and I don't think the Scandinavian countries are all that different from the German (or Dutch) speaking countries, so I don't know why they're singled out. The main thing I miss are the long summer nights, and the abundance of nature, which has nothing to do with the society.


Last summer it was basically never over 25 C

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You just proved my point! We need to handle that as well!

 

[fanboi]

Also, just to make sure you are onboard:

Sweden > Finland/Norway >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*1000 Denmark

Dennis8K *cough*

 

[jipewithin]

based on a number of criteria (like gini coefficient correlates) that favor welfare states, or are based on self-report (which is better but) which can be prone to cultural biases and could favor homogeneous countries.

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How exactly, what do you mean by favoring homogeneous countries? In what way?