Flawed as it may be, this forum provides a better education than my Political Science classes at a major university

[Deleted member 4482]

Today I was in a class called Political Behavior, which is supposed to examine the relationship between American citizens and the people they elect. Naturally there are a lot of rare circumstances from 2016 that are interesting to examine. However, my professor repeatedly presents these circumstances through republican talking points and conservative frameworks, even though she herself appears to be a moderate democrat in personal opinion. She (and other professors) repeatedly tells the class that she is fully neutral and objective and has no emotional investment in any of the topics we discuss, probably out of fear of being labeled or insulted by certain students.

Here are some examples:
-Electoral college: one student claims more populous states give more power to individual votes. He says a voter in California is more powerful than a voter in the midwest. This is outright false, and rather than correct him, my professor claims she has no opinion.
-The role of attacking opponents in election results: She poses to the class the idea that one of the factors in Hillary's loss was her use of attack ads, claiming that voters prefer candidates that focus more on themselves than their opponents. This is an incredibly strange claim considering Trump spent more time hurling personal insults than any presidential candidate I've ever seen, and he was the winner.

What the fuck is this? It's infuriating. It makes me sad that someone in charge of educating new voters is either entirely clueless about our reality or won't take her job seriously because she's too scared of being labeled somehow. And this seems to be a department-wide policy. If you're an educator, and the truth means stupid fuckheads will label you, tell the truth anyway. You're a university professor - you've already been labeled by the right anyway.

 

[SwampBastard]

Have you tried raising any of these points in class or directly with the professor during office hours?

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

Poli Sci programs, because of their inherent ideological and social implications, depend more on the culture and structure of the program then the budget and reputation of the university. You wouldn't catch me doing a poli sci BA at tons of top tier american schools.

 

[SoH]

repeatedly tells the class that she is fully neutral and objective and has no emotional investment in any of the topics we discuss

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This alone would make me highly dubious of anything a professor has to say to the point that it almost feels intentional to be challenged. What the actual fuck.

 

[Monroe Kelly]

You go to college to get a piece of paper so you can get a job (supposedly), not to actually learn anything. Just figure out what they want to hear to give you a passing grade and repeat it back. Don't actually take it seriously.

 

[The Albatross]

Why don't you raise the counter-point to something that you know is false? That's what you're supposed to do in college.

If someone says the exact opposite thing than what's true, that a person in a more populated state has more power relative to a person in a less populated state, raise your hand and correct them.

Sounds like you just have a bad professor. I loved Political science in college and ended up majoring in it because I liked it so much.

 

[Merv]

Are those supposed to be examples of Republican talking points?

 

[DrArchon]

She (and other professors) repeatedly tells the class that she is fully neutral and objective and has no emotional investment in any of the topics we discuss, probably out of fear of being labeled or insulted by certain students.

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Are they tenured? If they aren't, I can see this being an easy way to avoid rocking the boat and getting certain students to complain about them.

 

[AegonSnake]

Umm she is bringing up topics for debates. you got a problem with what the other guy said, you bring it up there instead of here.

she is the moderator, the class needs to have the debate between them. the teacher is supposed to moderate the debate.

 

[Kill3r7]

If you got something to say then speak up.

 

[Glasfrut]

I used to call people out on shit in my political science classes. My friend used to call it my "fire fighting". If you can and want to, call people out on shit.

If not, do what you need to get the grade. Just keep in mind the reality of the class.

 

[Reckheim]

I think she was trying to get the class to have a debate about it.

 

[Deception]

Why don't you raise the counter-point to something that you know is false? That's what you're supposed to do in college.

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This. The whole point of these type of class-wide discussions is to engage and offer your own point of view. I've challenged multiple professors before and have sometimes been right and wrong, it's just the how it goes.

 

[DaciaJC]

Here are some examples:
-Electoral college: one student claims more populous states give more power to individual votes. He says a voter in California is more powerful than a voter in the midwest. This is outright false, and rather than correct him, my professor claims she has no opinion.

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Perhaps he was trying to across the point, in a roundabout way, that larger states carry more electoral votes, therefore votes cast by citizens in said states might be considered more valuable than those in a small state with just, say, three electoral votes.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Why don't you raise the counter-point to something that you know is false? That's what you're supposed to do in college.

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Sometimes it's better to shut up and tell them what they want to hear for the grade.

 

[mutantmagnet]

Poli Sci programs, because of their inherent ideological and social implications, depend more on the culture and structure of the program then the budget and reputation of the university. You wouldn't catch me doing a poli sci BA at tons of top tier american schools.

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What is wrong with your educators? My various poli sci classes really were very informative. Then again I took those classes right before 911 and immediately after that occurred so things may have changed on a nationwide scale but from my own experience this is just bizarre.

 

[SoH]

Are they tenured? If they aren't, I can see this being an easy way to avoid rocking the boat and getting certain students to complain about them.

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FWIW I found this to be much more of the case even among the non-tenured though I understand it will be very case by case.

 

[Masoyama]

You go to college to get a piece of paper so you can get a job (supposedly), not to actually learn anything. Just figure out what they want to hear to give you a passing grade and repeat it back. Don't actually take it seriously.

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This is dumbest take ive read all day. You can absolutely tell when someone does this, and as someone that has to make decisions about hiring people I would never accept someone like that in my work team.

 

[The Albatross]

Right.

College is where you should be getting into uncomfortable debates with people in person. It's where you should have things challenged. If someone says something that's arguably wrong, e.g., your electoral college example, then challenge them on it. That's the whole point.

Also you're probably giving your professor not enough credit. She likely has a PhD in Political Science or some commensurate program and probably has a pretty deep knowledge of the subject, but maybe her teaching style is to let her students suss out arguments with one another... Maybe that's what she's teaching you, that sometimes you need to vocalize what you think is true rather than rely on someone else to do it for you. If you're waiting for your professor to say what you're thinking, that might never happen, and it's an important educational lesson to learn how to make arguments for yourself.. Exactly the thing you should be learning to do in the safe confines of college.

 

[Deleted member 4482]

Why don't you raise the counter-point to something that you know is false? That's what you're supposed to do in college.

If someone says the exact opposite thing than what's true, that a person in a more populated state has more power relative to a person in a less populated state, raise your hand and correct them.

Sounds like you just have a bad professor. I loved Political science in college and ended up majoring in it because I liked it so much.

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I guess it's just my experience making this whole thing weird for me. I spent 6 years studying computer science, and it was challenging and rigorous as hell, taking me through calculus, physics, biology, chemistry, computer engineering, and programming. All taught by people who knew their shit. I came back to college to do polisci to help shift my career in a certain direction, and to enter a classroom after all that other experience and have a professor just present weird biased nonsense or let lies float unchallenged is strange as fuck.

I'm very used to the professor being the authority, rather than pretending they have no stake in what we learn. I guess it's a different approach to education.

 

[Kill3r7]

Sometimes it's better to shut up and tell them what they want to hear for the grade.

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Isn't the whole point of the teacher being impartial a way to combat this. Also, I doubt class participation impacts your grade that much.

 

[Steel]

Perhaps he was trying to across the point, in a roundabout way, that larger states carry more electoral votes, therefore votes cast by citizens in said states might be considered more valuable than those in a small state with just, say, three electoral votes.

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The state with 3 electoral votes has more electoral votes per person. Not to mention most states don't swing.

 

[The Albatross]

I guess it's just my experience making this whole thing weird for me. I spent 6 years studying computer science, and it was challenging and rigorous as hell, taking me through calculus, physics, biology, chemistry, computer engineering, and programming. All taught by people who knew their shit. I came back to college to do polisci to help shift my career in a certain direction, and to enter a classroom after all that other experience and have a professor just present weird biased nonsense or let lies float unchallenged is strange as fuck.

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Challenge them yourself. Your college professor isn't there to articulate the thoughts that you have in your brain. That's part of the point of a liberal arts education.

I'm the opposite, I started as a compsci major, but switched to Political Science. And... now I'm a software engineer, so go figure :)

 

[Septy]

You go to college to get a piece of paper so you can get a job (supposedly), not to actually learn anything. Just figure out what they want to hear to give you a passing grade and repeat it back. Don't actually take it seriously.

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You don't learn anything in college? I wish I knew that I would have saved so much time with my piece of paper.

 

[Monroe Kelly]

This is dumbest take ive read all day. You can absolutely tell when someone does this, and as someone that has to make decisions about hiring people I would never accept someone like that in my work team.

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Yeah, no you can't. Maybe you just aren't as good at hiring as you think you are.

 

[DaciaJC]

The state with 3 electoral votes has more electoral votes per person. Not to mention most states don't swing.

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Certainly true. Would have been a good point for the OP to bring up in the class.

 

[The Albatross]

Sometimes it's better to shut up and tell them what they want to hear for the grade.

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I think people have this idea in their head, maybe because they read it on a videogame forum or because an older sibling told them that, but it's almost never the case, especially in the humanities. I worked in academia and taught intro computer science classes in post-grad, and when I was a young student I had a lot of preconceived notions about what my professors wanted to hear (particularly in classes I hated, like for me it was psychology ... I fucking hate my psychology class... probably because I was a dumb fuck philosophy major at the time), but knowing dozens of professors, I don't think I know any of them that grade that way especially in the humanities.

And fuck it, your grades don't matter beyond graduating, stand up for your ideas. Unless you're applying to grad school, which OP sounds like they aren't but going back to school for another degree in humanities, it's more important for you to stand up for ideas that are right than to try silently agree with someone who is saying things that are arguably wrong because you have a theory that's going to get you a better grade.

It probably won't. Especially in the humanities like political science, if you articulate a counter-point against something that someone is saying that is arguably wrong, you're going to do better in that class than if you silently ascent to someone saying something incorrect.

 

[Deleted member 4482]

Certainly true. Would have been a good point for the OP to bring up in the class.

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Someone else corrected the guy who was wrong immediately. I'm not used to discussion classes. If the professor is teaching politics should the professor not tell the class what is the truth instead of relying on other students to do it?

 

[Deleted member 8561]

Sometimes it's better to shut up and tell them what they want to hear for the grade.

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I have never encountered a professor in the political field/social fields who would mark a student down for debating topics.

I had routine disagreements with my very, very anti-western professor and had no issue getting an A.

This is honestly more of a myth than anything rooted in reality.

Honestly if you're not raising your voice in these classes and having open contentious debates when the opportunity presents itself, you're doing it wrong.

And while we're on the subject, ERA is fucking clueless when it comes to politics. If you're getting your informed political opinions from ERA OT then something has gone very wrong. Just because ERA as a general population leans in your political direction doesn't mean it's an informed place to gather political opinions and information.

 

[The Albatross]

Yeah, no you can't. Maybe you just aren't as good at hiring as you think you are.

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I don't know about that person's hiring skills, but if you wasted your money on your college degree just going to get a certificate that says you attended college, good on you. But, don't give it as advice to other people. OP is paying to go back to college to get some other degree in humanities, they should get the most out of it.

 

[Dyle]

Maybe it's a very meta class where she is demonstrating how misinformation can grow and spread without effective, informed leadership to prevent it

 

[Parthenios]

As a political science graduate (from a state university, not sure if that counts as a 'major' one or not), I have the opposite opinion.

Lots of Era members usually seems to lack even a high school level of civics and government, let alone some of the other topics I had to spend a ton of credit hours on (statistics!). Era actually reminds me of most of my freshman/sophomore level classes that were filled with non-majors that took polisci classes as electives because "they like to debate" or are super passionate about a single issue and just wanted a platform to talk about it.

And Era's actually way more informed on these issues than most places. If you just want to die every day, forever--get a polisci degree and then spend a couple of hours on Facebook and realize that your racist uncle's opinion ultimately matters as much as yours does :'0

 

[Deleted member 8561]

You go to college to get a piece of paper so you can get a job (supposedly), not to actually learn anything. Just figure out what they want to hear to give you a passing grade and repeat it back. Don't actually take it seriously.

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Not sure what field you're in, but if someone didn't learn anything coming out of my field it would be pretty fucking apparent.

 

[The Albatross]

Someone else corrected the guy who was wrong immediately. I'm not used to discussion classes. If the professor is teaching politics should the professor not tell the class what is the truth instead of relying on other students to do it?

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Every professor has their own teaching style, but, in this case I'd say no, if another student makes the point that contradicts the arguably false point of the previous student, then that can have a more effective teaching lesson than if the professor contradicts the student. Professors who contradict students -- especially in humanities classes -- can have a chilling affect on the class.

In computer science, if you have a bug in your software, you could take your code to your professor and say "I have a bug, why isn't this working?" And they may look at it, look a the console error, and say, "oh, you're trying to run this method on a string when the method assumes you're going to run it on an array." And you can change your code and fix it. Or the professor might teach you how to debug the error yourself so that when you run into a similar error in the future, you're better equipped at debugging it and figuring out how to get to the right answer... instead of just telling you the right answer.

The point of that political science course could be to help students learn how to get to the right answers, or learn some sort of political skill in arguing and making points, as opposed to a wrote memorization of concepts.

Also one thing I'm trying to use here is to say "Arguably false" instead of "Factually false" or "provably false." Political philosophy should primarily be about arguments, not proofs. I mean, if we want to get Machiavellian about it ... in the end ... California has a hell of a lot more power than Wyoming (if California decided to air-drop all of the feces that it's population generates on Wyoming, it'd suffocate the entire state...) ... but the theoretical voting power of one individual in Michigan is less than the theoretical voting power of one individual in Wyoming. In practice, though, Michigan has more political power because despite that the relative voting power of each individual voter is less, politicians are generally more interested in that theoretical less-powerful Michigan voter because of what they represent (swing state, urban middle class, etc). As it's presented your classmate is totally wrong, but humanities shouldn't be about proofs, it should be about arguments... and that's probably a more valuable lesson to take away from your class.

 

[Deleted member 4482]

As a political science graduate (from a state university, not sure if that counts as a 'major' one or not), I have the opposite opinion.

Lots of Era members usually seems to lack even a high school level of civics and government, let alone some of the other topics I had to spend a ton of credit hours on (statistics!). Era actually reminds me of most of my freshman/sophomore level classes that were filled with non-majors that took polisci classes as electives because "they like to debate" or are super passionate about a single issue and just wanted a platform to talk about it.

And Era's actually way more informed on these issues that most places. If you just want to die every day, forever--get a polisci degree and then spend a couple of hours on Facebook and realize that your racist uncle's opinion ultimately matters as much as yours does :'0

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When we're talking about the general population, sure. But there are plenty of people here who are pretty good at explaining the rules and processes and are knowledgeable about issues or individuals far beyond what I'm exposed to at school. Beyond that, the topics that are brought up here regularly drive me to read more in-depth articles to inform myself for these discussions, which is something that my classes hardly ever encourage.

 

[DaciaJC]

Someone else corrected the guy who was wrong immediately. I'm not used to discussion classes. If the professor is teaching politics should the professor not tell the class what is the truth instead of relying on other students to do it?

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Not necessarily. If the professor can foster an environment where students feel encouraged and challenged to apply critical thinking skills when discussing topics and responding to each other, that can often be more productive than the professor delivering a one-way lecture. It's a common mode of teaching/learning in humanities courses.

 

[Kunka Kid]

You go to college to get a piece of paper so you can get a job (supposedly), not to actually learn anything. Just figure out what they want to hear to give you a passing grade and repeat it back. Don't actually take it seriously.

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Yep. Do your learning on your own time.

 

[Parthenios]

When we're talking about the general population, sure. But there are plenty of people here who are pretty good at explaining the rules and processes and are knowledgeable about issues or individuals far beyond what I'm exposed to at school. Beyond that, the topics that are brought up here regularly drive me to read more in-depth articles to inform myself for these discussions, which is something that my classes hardly ever encourage.

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This is certainly true; my favorite classes were the ones that presented issues through the lens of an issue I didn't already know a lot about, instead of taking a dry sort of generalist approach. I had to take several Constitutional Law classes, and my favorite wasn't one of the laws that was "here are famous Supreme Court cases" but "this is 2005 and LGBTQ rights are going to be the next big thing in the country, lets take a tour of cases that will inform this going forward" (even though it wasn't an LTGTQ studies class). Being from bum-fuck nowhere Kentucky I didn't know shit about the topic and was eager to come to class every day (and the professor was on the nose about it being important in the near future).

Era does a good job of that definitely, exposing me (hopefully most users) to topics outside our comfort zones.

 

[Bronx-Man]

I used to be a BA poli-sci because of my interest in politics and that was one of the worst decisions of life. College in general did teach me a lot about different political structures though but most of that came from older friends that already made the transition to full-blown marxist.

 

[StanleyStutters]

Sounds like your prof. was trying to remain neutral and unbiased to encourage debate between the students. If she shares her opinions, regardless of which side they land on, she risks alienating part of the classroom and having students feel afraid or uncomfortable sharing an opinion that they know is opposite of the professor. Try countering some points next class, she what happens. Be part of the conversation and challenge points you disagree with.

 

[moblin]

It sounds like you're taking an entry-level course?

Wait until you start taking more targeted classes by professors knowledgeable in their fields before you go down the dangerous path of thinking the internet - and especially this particular site - can provide you a more substantive education than people who have dedicated their adult lives to research and education.

101 courses are functionally Civics rehashes for students of varying educational backgrounds to ensure everyone is working off of the same basic knowledge.

 

[Bonafide]

could be she's trying to avoid ending up on those "professor/jewish witch hunt" sites funded by the kochs/TPUSA, that's actually becoming a problem.

but i doubt it in this case, sounds like standard fair politics for the US. sterile with adherence to the status quo.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

What is wrong with your educators? My various poli sci classes really were very informative. Then again I took those classes right before 911 and immediately after that occurred so things may have changed on a nationwide scale but from my own experience this is just bizarre.

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Part of that is preference (and snobbery) on my part. I got a good grounding sure but by my upper years I was able to focus on fields like Continental and contemporary marxist theory, critical legal studies, post-structuralist IR, IPE and a ton of other good stuff that people might otherwise not encounter until grad school.
Large swaths of academia are even if not consciously, ultimately concerned more with reproduction then providing the best possible education.

edit: Canadian for context, most of my experience with US schools is anecdotal but pretty substantive.

 

[Deleted member 4482]

Sounds like your prof. was trying to remain neutral and unbiased to encourage debate between the students. If she shares her opinions, regardless of which side they land on, she risks alienating part of the classroom and having students feel afraid or uncomfortable sharing an opinion that they know is opposite of the professor. Try countering some points next class, she what happens. Be part of the conversation and challenge points you disagree with.

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Well this get at the core of my concern. Sure, we could have a class debate on whether we should get rid of the electoral college. That's an opinion. But we shouldn't be allowed to debate how it works. The definition and operation of a system isn't an opinion. The numbers are counted how they're counted. One person is objectively right, and one is objectively wrong. I'm worried that in this age of the degradation of truth, these students are spending more time arguing their different realities rather than their different opinions.

It sounds like you're taking an entry-level course?

Wait until you start taking more targeted classes by professors knowledgeable in their fields before you go down the dangerous path of thinking the internet - and especially this particular site - can provide you a more substantive education than people who have dedicated their adult lives to research and education.

101 courses are functionally Civics rehashes for students of varying educational backgrounds to ensure everyone is working off of the same basic knowledge.

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Nope, I'm at the senior level, 4000-numbered courses. And they're all like this. I had a quiz in my political theory class, 4000/4th year level, and it was 10 multiple choice questions matching up vocab words from the reading to their definitions. We were given 15 minutes and I finished it in 15 seconds. I haven't been this relaxed about school since second grade.

 

[namlook]

I'm very used to the professor being the authority, rather than pretending they have no stake in what we learn. I guess it's a different approach to education

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welcome to the 'soft' sciences

 

[Deleted member 11413]

welcome to the 'soft' sciences

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This is pretty unfair, most professors are not like that

 

[samoyed]

You should have raised an objection.

Mainstream education seeks to uphold the ideological orthodoxy. It doesn't do this fully consciously or fully unconsciously, but in a kind of "everyone doing the thing that's the best outcome for their career leading to a systemic effect of preserving rather than disrupting the status quo because you have no career without a status quo".

Your prof does sound crappy though.

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-...and-education-in-the-21st-century-and-beyond/

 

[Ferrio]

Well this get at the core of my concern. Sure, we could have a class debate on whether we should get rid of the electoral college. That's an opinion. But we shouldn't be allowed to debate how it works. The definition and operation of a system isn't an opinion. The numbers are counted how they're counted. One person is objectively right, and one is objectively wrong. I'm worried that in this age of the degradation of truth, these students are spending more time arguing their different realities rather than their different opinions.

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An argument that will happen in the real world guaranteed. If the world was perfect then you'd be right, but it's not and you'll have to fight stupidity, better be ready for it.

 

[The Albatross]

Nope, I'm at the senior level, 4000-numbered courses. And they're all like this. I had a quiz in my political theory class, 4000/4th year level, and it was 10 multiple choice questions matching up vocab words from the reading to their definitions. We were given 15 minutes and I finished it in 15 seconds. I haven't been this relaxed about school since second grade.

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... this is a level 400 / high level political science class...?

what the hell. What type of university is this?

Well this get at the core of my concern. Sure, we could have a class debate on whether we should get rid of the electoral college. That's an opinion. But we shouldn't be allowed to debate how it works. The definition and operation of a system isn't an opinion. The numbers are counted how they're counted. One person is objectively right, and one is objectively wrong. I'm worried that in this age of the degradation of truth, these students are spending more time arguing their different realities rather than their different opinions.

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Why don't you say this in class?

 

[Deleted member 4482]

... this is a level 400 / high level political science class...?

what the hell. What type of university is this?

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UCF. Same school I did my exhausting, hardcore comp sci work at.