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Oct 25, 2017
13,693
On Friday, a man murdered 49 people in Christchurch, New Zealand. He targeted Muslims at two mosques in the city in what's been deemed a terrorist attack, one of the most horrific acts of violence the country has ever seen.

Shortly before the attack, in what appeared to be posts from the alleged shooter, links to a Facebook livestream of the killings were shared on 8chan. Social media channels later struggled to remove copies of that stream, while his 74-page "manifesto" also spread from 8chan across the likes of Facebook and Twitter.

If the New Zealand terrorist really was radicalized on 8chan, and if there's such a cornucopia of appalling material on the forum, what should be done to counter extremism and illegal activity on the site? Should it be taken down entirely?

One company that's helped keep the site secure and easily accessible is U.S. internet infrastructure and security provider Cloudflare. Its tech gets websites to run faster and protects them from distributed denial of service (DDoS) attacks where Web servers are overwhelmed with traffic. Over the years, Cloudflare has stuck by its policy of allowing anyone to enjoy its services, regardless of how extreme the website. And it has repeatedly been criticized for its "content neutral" approach. In December, it came under fire for protecting websites promoting material for groups deemed terrorist organizations, including al-Shabab and the Taliban.

But Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince did make one exception: During the 2017 Charlottesville riots, the Daily Stormer was ditched after it claimed Cloudflare secretly shared its extreme, neo-Nazi ideology.

Alissa Starzak, Cloudflare's head of policy, defended the services' actions, saying that that taking away support for 8chan wouldn't remove it from the internet. Just like getting rid of a terrorist's electricity supply or preventing them from buying groceries, cutting off Cloudflare would do little to deal with the problem, Starzak told Forbes.

Website moderators are the ones who are there to remove content, not Cloudflare, she added. "We're the Fedex of the internet, passing messages on, not looking inside the boxes," she explained.

If Clouflare did pull the plug, it'd be possible to see who the host of the website was. From there it'd be easier for governments to request the host pull the site. It'd also be easier for anyone willing to break the law and carry out a DDoS attack to knock the forum offline.

As for what to do about fringe sites promoting extremist views, Cloudflare's Starzak didn't have the answers. What's required, she added, was a big public policy push with players from among national governments and private companies allowing such sites to exist.

Forbes attempted to contact the founder of 8chan and admins for the site, but received no response.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomas...uld-8chan-be-wiped-from-the-web/#7e220ee96263
 

Jecht

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,650
Website moderators are the ones who are there to remove content, not Cloudflare, she added. "We're the Fedex of the internet, passing messages on, not looking inside the boxes," she explained.
Fedex absolutely does look inside packages if they suspect illegal items are in transit, you stupid fuckloaf.

Tired of this craven libertarian tech attitude.
 
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BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
Fedex absolutely does look inside packages if they suspect illegal items are in transit, you stupid fuckloaf.

Tired of this craven librarian tech attitude.

Yup. If they feel something is off or hear strange noises from it they will check it. aint nothing new. Just like the post office checks to make sure you aren't mailed poison.
 

Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
5,068
So, they only canceled the daily stormer because it was bad PR.

Hopefully the same thing will happen here.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,889
London
Given how much illegal material is sought out and shared deliberately by users on that cesspool from what I have heard, can't law enforcement submit a formal request to get their users' information and shut the site down?
 
May 30, 2018
1,255
Alissa Starzak, Cloudflare's head of policy, defended the services' actions, saying that that taking away support for 8chan wouldn't remove it from the internet. Just like getting rid of a terrorist's electricity supply or preventing them from buying groceries, cutting off Cloudflare would do little to deal with the problem, Starzak told Forbes.

Website moderators are the ones who are there to remove content, not Cloudflare, she added. "We're the Fedex of the internet, passing messages on, not looking inside the boxes," she explained.

If Clouflare did pull the plug, it'd be possible to see who the host of the website was. From there it'd be easier for governments to request the host pull the site. It'd also be easier for anyone willing to break the law and carry out a DDoS attack to knock the forum offline.

Lmao


Tbh expecting tech companies to do anything that hurts their profit is pointless

As long extremist sites pay they're not getting touched
 
May 26, 2018
24,029
That's not how this shit works. They don't get to decide if if the weight of responsibility falls on them.

The above post about fedex needing to check for bombs and other such things is absolutely correct. If they choose to do nothing, they are actually funneling illegal activity. They would be a direct medium for crime, and thus a criminal enterprise.
 

Sean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,591
Longview
Forever and always - Libertarians are trash and part of the problem.

Fuck tech companies, fuck these assholes who won't go after monsters. If you willingly let Pedophiles and Nazis spread their shit then you're just as bad as they are.
 

whytemyke

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
3,789
They're going to be peddling kiddie porn and making memes about putting Muslims in gas chambers whether Cloudfare provides their internet services or not so they might as well provide services and make some coin off them.

Classic neoliberal attitude there. It's pretty shitty abandoning morality in the pursuit of profits but since I'm posting this on an iPhone I'm not sure I'm in any position to be throwing stones about companies abandoning morality in the pursuit of corporate health.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,833
Given how much illegal material is sought out and shared deliberately by users on that cesspool from what I have heard, can't law enforcement submit a formal request to get their users' information and shut the site down?
They can however usually in these cases they have to be looking for something specific or they have to be told about an incident prior.
For example I know 4chan isn't 8chan but a couple years ago someone stated they were going to shoot up a mall on one of the boards, said persons information was given, they were arrested and the situation didn't escalate. The same happens anytime illicit pornography is posted.

The catch here is that the police were TOLD that something specifically illegal was happening and were given the information to pinpoint who what when where. They can really only do a scorched Earth plan (take down the whole website) or go by exact info, not that I'm opposed to the former though. Otherwise traversing through every IP on the site and attempting to find something illegal isn't really feasible on a resource level.
 

Cpt-GargameL

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,024
Website moderators are the ones who are there to remove content, not Cloudflare, she added. "We're the Fedex of the internet, passing messages on, not looking inside the boxes," she explained.

Well now that you know what type of contents are in this particular box, why don't you eliminate the possibility of more boxes being shipped?

469.gif
 

Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
5,068
So you refuse to help even a "little". Thanks, fuck you.

I don't even get the analogy about cutting electricity or preventing them from buying groceries. Cutting them off from electricity would absolutely affect their ability to spread their views globally, and preventing them from buying their groceries would - if absolutely nothing else - force them to spend more time obtaining basic needs and less time advocating hatred.

I would hate to be kicked off the electrical grid and stopped from buying groceries.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,247
Tampa, Fl
Fedex absolutely does look inside packages if they suspect illegal items are in transit, you stupid fuckloaf.

Tired of this craven libertarian tech attitude.

Exactly.

I work for UPS and every package gets a manifest description and if something seems off the package is opened and checked.

Hell this year my store helped take down drug smuggling ring where the person would bring in huge ass boxes wrapped in plastic wrap, send it Next Day and pay in cash.

We reported the packages to the hub and they opened them and called the DEA.
 

Atolm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,829
I don't even get the analogy about cutting electricity or preventing them from buying groceries. Cutting them off from electricity would absolutely affect their ability to spread their views globally, and preventing them from buying their groceries would - if absolutely nothing else - force them to spend more time obtaining basic needs and less time advocating hatred.

I would hate to be kicked off the electrical grid and stopped from buying groceries.

Hmmm...No?

The Taliban were hidden in caves under the mountains during that farce that was called war. It's 2019 and they have 3/4 of Afghanistan under their thumb.

Those who fight for a cause they believe in (as abnorrhent it may seem said cause to us) will resist much harsher conditions than us from our comfy couches and chairs, because they have nothing, to begin with.

From there it's easy to plant moles around the world that share your ideology.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,311
They said the same things about Stormfront's web hosting and the original first wave of bannings on Twitter before public opinion snowballed on the various tech giants.
 

Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
5,068
Hmmm...No?

The Taliban were hidden in caves under the mountains during that farce that was called war. It's 2019 and they have 3/4 of Afghanistan under their thumb.

Those who fight for a cause they believe in (as abnorrhent it may seem said cause to us) will resist much harsher conditions than us from our comfy couches and chairs, because they have nothing, to begin with.

From there it's easy to plant moles around the world that share your ideology.

You're assuming that most people who are sympathetic or agree with 8-channers are resilient or dedicated enough to live in a cave in order to hold steadfast to the ideals. Yes, some terrorists will still act effectively in such situations, but surely giving them access to an electrical grid and easily obtainable food would make them more effective, no?

I'm not saying there aren't extremists who are willing to die for their cause, I'm talking about deplatforming, stemming the spread of those ideas, and making it far less convenient to be openly bigoted. Comparing the average 8-chan visitor to members of the Taliban or any other group is misguided.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,309
The whole "but Fedex!" argument, even if it wasn't factually wrong, doesn't even make sense theoretically. Cloudflare and the public both know that the company is doing business with 8chan and what 8chan is so there's no 'breach of privacy' involved in the first place. It would be like Fedex being asked to send a parcel with "THIS IS POISON" written on it and using "we just didn't know! privacy!" to justify doing so. They just value money over the lives that have and will be affected by that godawful site; it's really no more complicated than that.
 
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Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Shorter answer: The people running Cloudflare are alt-reich sympathizers.

Alissa Starzak, Cloudflare's head of policy, defended the services' actions, saying that that taking away support for 8chan wouldn't remove it from the internet. Just like getting rid of a terrorist's electricity supply or preventing them from buying groceries, cutting off Cloudflare would do little to deal with the problem, Starzak told Forbes.[/QUOTE]

Umm. That does a whole lot to deal with the problem.
 

Remember

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,484
Chicago, IL United States
What I'm getting from this is that the website is considered a necessary evil for those individuals to gather at, so that they can eventually slip up and get caught.

I can imagine the scattering chaos if the site was taken down, but man it still sucks that it exists.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
What I'm getting from this is that the website is considered a necessary evil for those individuals to gather at, so that they can eventually slip up and get caught.

I can imagine the scattering chaos if the site was taken down, but man it still sucks that it exists.
Lol containment doesn't work, and scattering them is precisely what needs to happen.

Yes it's a game of whack a mole, but it's one that works.
 

Remember

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,484
Chicago, IL United States
Lol containment doesn't work, and scattering them is precisely what needs to happen.

Yes it's a game of whack a mole, but it's one that works.

You make it sound easier than it probably is. Wouldn't scattering them make it extremely harder to track them? What's essentially being done is that all of the 'animals' on 8chan are being herded into one den, rather than all over the place. If you were a person of the law who is trying to use this herd to catch larger prey, what is the right call here? Like I said, I don't like the site nor like the fact that it exists, but I see what is being done here.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
You make it sound easier than it probably is. Wouldn't scattering them make it extremely harder to track them? What's essentially being done is that all of the 'animals' on 8chan are being herded into one den, rather than all over the place. If you were a person of the law who is trying to use this herd to catch larger prey, what is the right call here? Like I said, I don't like the site nor like the fact that it exists, but I see what is being done here.
Is counter-terrorism putting people on 8chan/4chan/r/t_d on a watchlist? No, not to my knowledge.

Would such a thing be politically viable? Probably not the US, which struggles to use the phrase "white supremacist terrorism" in a sentence.

You're suggesting a make believe scenario with no bearing on reality.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
Prediction: "Deplatformed" groups will be the biggest driver in decentralization and pro-privacy based technology. What we have now is easy centralized targets, at the expense of true data ownership. In the future it could swing the other way. There is no solution here, only trade-offs.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
You make it sound easier than it probably is. Wouldn't scattering them make it extremely harder to track them? What's essentially being done is that all of the 'animals' on 8chan are being herded into one den, rather than all over the place. If you were a person of the law who is trying to use this herd to catch larger prey, what is the right call here? Like I said, I don't like the site nor like the fact that it exists, but I see what is being done here.
I get what you're saying, but in practice these communities are safe spaces for them to collaborate and egg each other on. It's as much a pressure cooker as it is a quarantine (and, as reddit has shown us after it banned certain subreddits, is a very poor one.)
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Prediction: "Deplatformed" groups will be the biggest driver in decentralization and pro-privacy based technology. What we have now is easy centralized targets, at the expense of true data ownership. In the future it could swing the other way. There is no solution here, only trade-offs.
Interesting idea though I feel they've shown to be all talk and little action, and when they commit to action it's violent.

Many has therefore started to argue for the need, not for parallel platforms, but a decentralisation of internet infrastructure. The decentralisation philosophy is the opposite, a radical idea of doing away with any concentrated point of power (or failure). Anarchist and libertarian programmers and internet activist have long built platforms that enable a decentralised internet outside of the control of either Government or big corporations. Technologies that makes it difficult or impossible to monitor internet usage and censor content, this has caught the interest of the alt-right. Video sharing platform BitChute is one of the first platforms to make use of these technologies.

https://hopenothate.com/2018/11/04/alt-tech-far-right-safe-spaces-online/

Innovation is not their strong suit, it kind of goes with the territory of being a violent extremist, they have difficulty tapping into the innovative powers of diversity. That said, some politically apathetic entrepreneur could be inclined to exploit this potential market for decentralization.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Shut it down you dense piece of shit.

Not doing anything because they would try finding a way while happily accepting their money makes you a contributor in the evils being committed.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,608
"I'm the Cloudflare of the postal service, passing packages on, not looking inside them" said the postal worker, placing the transparent box of white powder labeled 'ANTHRAX' at the doorstep.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,382
In December, it came under fire for protecting websites promoting material for groups deemed terrorist organizations, including al-Shabab and the Taliban.
I thought knowingly aiding designated terrorist organizations was illegal.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
Interesting idea though I feel they've shown to be all talk and little action, and when they commit to action it's violent.

That's true of any group though. There's those few couple people who actually commit and they drive the whole thing forward. Realistically we're not afraid of most white nationalists, just in aggregate we know that the more there are the more likely it is that one of them is deranged enough to act. All it takes is one person to make something popular, to make an idea viable, to make technology usable. We haven't found that yet in the field of privacy, but it seems inevitable.