gimbles123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
302
Again, Padme died from childbirth and "losing the will to live" in a space station surrounded by robot nurses.

That's pretty damn stupid, no argument from me there, but she needed to die for the story to not be broken. Bad execution isn't the same thing as having free reign with the story and then deciding to introduce an element unexplained that basically rewrites what you thought possible about all the force users in the series.
 

Iori Loco

Member
Nov 10, 2017
2,288
Darth Sion from KotOR II is who you're referring to.

That's the one. Thanks.

The OP literally states how it trivializes the past, which is does. That a majority of this thread is rebuffing that notion is handwaving. The fact that force healing is the form that contrived writing takes doesn't absolve it from being problematic. I have no problem if people don't care how the force manifests itself, but most aren't saying that. Instead we have a sea of justifications for something dumb.

OP states that it trivializes the past regarding Anakin's visions of Padme dying, but remember he couldn't just go ask the other Jedi how to save her when their relationship was a secret. though he probably could have asked after his mom died.

Another thing is that the Jedi didn't saw dying as the end, they think of the dead as rejoining the force so maybe they didn't tried to prevent someone like Qui Gon, who got split in half, to die and maybe remain in pain, as opposed to the Sith who keep themselves alive by pure hatred feeding the force.

Outside of Padme and Anakin's mom I don't think there's other scene where they could just apply force to the injury to save someone. Usually when someone dies in the films it's in a pretty instantaneous way.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,911
OP states that it trivializes the past regarding Anakin's visions of Padme dying, but remember he couldn't just go ask the other Jedi how to save her when their relationship was a secret. though he probably could have asked after his mom died.
Honestly, Anakin should have known just because that's a very useful ability to have when you're frontline military. All the Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars should have been taught it.

But that would just bring us back to the point that Anakin could have just told Padme to visit the doctor and then prepare one of the many established life-saving technologies in the Star Wars universe for the moment her water breaks.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
Okay hold on. I'm gonna go donate blood. No, not like a bag where I then get a cookie and some orange juice. I'm gonna ask the doctor to cut me open and wring me for every drop, and take every organ possible despite my otherwise healthy condition.

lol, don't take it out on me, I didn't write this shit. TROS posits that Rey can cure all injuries up to and including death, and presumably she can teach the technique to all Force Sensitives. Star Wars is now a post-malady universe. Jedi are the ultimate doctors. Their abilities to kinda sorta predict the future and do sweet flips pale in comparison to the power to heal the sick and injured, and any Jedi worthy of the title would have a moral obligation to do it as much as possible. How could one be so reckless as to get into swordfights when they're a living panacea? Do you think that JJ intended for that to be the case when he wrote TROS, and that future Star Wars writers will make use of this new development in Star Wars lore, or do you think it's the by-product of a thoughtless hack script and Lucasfilm is going to pretend it doesn't exist from here on?
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,813
Still not as broken as that Dyad bullshit Rey and Kylo have in TROS, which couple with their other powers should make them nigh-omnipotent.
 

TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
So many things in these movies break previous movies. Like the prequels having Star Destroyers fly next to the ground broke the OT, and lightspeed ramming in TLJ broke the entire universe.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,911
lol, don't take it out on me, I didn't write this shit. TROS posits that Rey can cure all injuries up to and including death, and presumably she can teach the technique to all Force Sensitives. Star Wars is now a post-malady universe. Jedi are the ultimate doctors. Their abilities to kinda sorta predict the future and do sweet flips pale in comparison to the power to heal the sick and injured, and any Jedi worthy of the title would have a moral obligation to do it as much as possible. How could one be so reckless as to get into swordfights when they're a living panacea? Do you think that JJ intended for that to be the case when he wrote TROS, and that future Star Wars writers will make use of this new development in Star Wars lore, or do you think it's the by-product of a thoughtless hack script and Lucasfilm is going to pretend it doesn't exist from here on?
I mean... Yeah?

bacta-tank-main-image_913e9351.jpeg


https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F180320125821-star-wars-luke-skywalker-prosthetic-hand-alt.png


Also, one of the main points of the Jedi in the prequels is they're a bunch of stuck-up ivory tower assholes. They live in a universe where chattel slavery is widespread and sit on their asses instead of doing something about it. The one time they do finally do something, it's as government thugs fighting a fraudulent war.

Lucas failed at many things in the prequels, but one thing he did very well was communicating just how rotten the Jedi Order was.
 
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Iori Loco

Member
Nov 10, 2017
2,288
Honestly, Anakin should have known just because that's a very useful ability to have when you're frontline military. All the Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars should have been taught it.

Can't argue with that one. Maybe he would have both arms if he could heal himself.

But that would just bring us back to the point that Anakin could have just told Padme to visit the doctor and then prepare one of the many established life-saving technologies in the Star Wars universe for the moment her water breaks.

True. Anakin was very stupid by thinking the force was the way to save Padme when technology kept someone like Grievous (and later on himself) alive. Maybe he just wan't that into the idea of a cyborg wife, though he loves machines, who knows?
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,911
True. Anakin was very stupid by thinking the force was the way to save Padme when technology kept someone like Grievous (and later on himself) alive. Maybe he just wan't that into the idea of a cyborg wife, though he loves machines, who knows?
Now I wanna see the AU where Anakin never falls to the Dark Side and is married happily to Padme's brain in a jar.
 

gimbles123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
302
OP states that it trivializes the past regarding Anakin's visions of Padme dying, but remember he couldn't just go ask the other Jedi how to save her when their relationship was a secret. though he probably could have asked after his mom died.

Another thing is that the Jedi didn't saw dying as the end, they think of the dead as rejoining the force so maybe they didn't tried to prevent someone like Qui Gon, who got split in half, to die and maybe remain in pain, as opposed to the Sith who keep themselves alive by pure hatred feeding the force.

Outside of Padme and Anakin's mom I don't think there's other scene where they could just apply force to the injury to save someone. Usually when someone dies in the films it's in a pretty instantaneous way.

It does trivializes many elements though, I mean you point to a great example with Qui Gon. He literally dies from the same wound that Rey inflicts on Kylo and subsequently saves him from death.

My point is that it's so undefined how and who can heal that it makes you question everything, that is the problem.
 

Iori Loco

Member
Nov 10, 2017
2,288
It does trivializes many elements though, I mean you point to a great example with Qui Gon. He literally dies from the same wound that Rey inflicts on Kylo and subsequently saves him from death.

My point is that it's so undefined how and who can heal that it makes you question everything, that is the problem.

Yeah, I don't think there's any hard written rules established on how the force works, and the prequels and sequels are written in a clunky manner, still, I think the logic to no save someone like Qui Gon when it may have been possible for someone with healing knowledge was due to their beliefs of returning to the force after death, which made Obi Wan and Yoda face their own deaths without fear.

Another of the idiosyncrasies of the Jedi that may have prevented them to try to save a dying person may be their detachment from everything in a sentimental way, for better or for worse. That way of thinking was what lead to the weird rule of forbidding romantic relationships to the members of their order.

Rei didn't carried any of that baggage since she wasn't formally trained by a master Jedi, so she could revive a dead Kylo just because she could. On top of that, Luke and Yoda realized that the Jedi order was stupid in some ways, so I guess that love being what saved everyone at the end (as cheesy as it is) kind of fits with Yoda burning the old Jedi texts, since they thought of attachment as a path to the dark side.
 
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Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,911
Rei didn't carried any of that baggage since she wasn't formally trained by a master Jedi, so she could revive a dead Kylo just because she could. On top of that, Luke and Yoda realized that the Jedi order was stupid in some ways, so I guess that love being what saved everyone at the end (as cheesy as it is) kind of fits with Yoda burning the old Jedi texts, since they thought of attachment as a path to the dark side.
Rise of Skywalker is a very bad movie, and part of why it's so bad is that the writers just smushed Rey into a retelling of Luke's story in Return of the Jedi when Rey isn't Luke and should have been allowed to be a different character from Luke.
 

Deleted member 910

Oct 25, 2017
16,503
They have retroactively stated it's a force dyad exclusive powers TM. Like force skyping and force teleporting items through the galaxy.
 

Desi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,378
In Rebels there's a place called the World between Worlds that's a force nexus that lets you time travel. Well it kind of takes on different properties depending on who uses it, Sheev wanted to use it become an omnipotent space force god.
That shit was so wild. I didn't know what to think but it works in a Cult of Jedi kind of way. at least it
Ashoka to live
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,111
Put me in the camp of not everyone can use the Force in the same way. It's a mystical power, not a skill tree with pre-defined paths. Being attuned to the Force doesn't mean you can automatically do anything with it and it doesn't mean you automatically know everything you can theoretically do with it. In the OT, when a Jedi died, their body vanished and they became a ghost. In the PT, it turns out that's not something any Jedi can do, in fact no Jedi does it until Qui-Gon, who then teaches it to others.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
Going to point out that force heal closed at least one worm.
 

Iori Loco

Member
Nov 10, 2017
2,288
Rise of Skywalker is a very bad movie, and part of why it's so bad is that the writers just smushed Rey into a retelling of Luke's story in Return of the Jedi when Rey isn't Luke and should have been allowed to be a different character from Luke.

Can't argue with that one.
 

Salsanta1373

Member
Apr 6, 2019
213
Healing powers are a tricky thing to do in media. You gotta keep control of it and not rely on. This issue came up in Jojo. I know the meme, but I have a point. Recently two main characters had healing powers. One uses it in unique ways and has limitations, while other one used it as a get out of jail free card and trivialize the action. Try to not to rely this power and not to trivialize the consequence of action.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
42,920
Greater Vancouver
...Does it actually?

Like if you're gonna talk about Anakin, I again mention this is a universe where they can literally just heal your injuries by dropping you in a tube of liquid for a few days.
No no no, he died because she was sad.

It's way different.
lol, don't take it out on me, I didn't write this shit. TROS posits that Rey can cure all injuries up to and including death, and presumably she can teach the technique to all Force Sensitives. Star Wars is now a post-malady universe. Jedi are the ultimate doctors. Their abilities to kinda sorta predict the future and do sweet flips pale in comparison to the power to heal the sick and injured, and any Jedi worthy of the title would have a moral obligation to do it as much as possible. How could one be so reckless as to get into swordfights when they're a living panacea? Do you think that JJ intended for that to be the case when he wrote TROS, and that future Star Wars writers will make use of this new development in Star Wars lore, or do you think it's the by-product of a thoughtless hack script and Lucasfilm is going to pretend it doesn't exist from here on?
Know else who can heal the sick and wounded? Regular doctors.

And like... present political trashfire aside, we typically don't ask that they do so at the supposed sacrifice of their own lifeforce to do it.
 

Desi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,378
Healing powers are a tricky thing to do in media. You gotta keep control of it and not rely on. This issue came up in Jojo. I know the meme, but I have a point. Recently two main characters had healing powers. One uses it in unique ways and has limitations, while other one used it as a get out of jail free card and trivialize the action. Try to not to rely this power and not to trivialize the consequence of action.
But it works so well for the second hero because they are a fucking genius and the final boss is also bullshit. The meme says it all! "that's bullshit. I'll believe it"
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,942
The force is like chakra, bankai or nen etc. It's a plot device that lets characters have cool powers. The issue is Star Wars didn't embrace this and have very Jedi or sith have a cool expertise or technique. Your medical Jedi, combat Jedi, mind trickery Jedi, Force lightning etc. instead it's just random things that everybody can or maybe can't do depending on the circumstance and pops out of thin air

Japan wins again
 
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Sterok

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,131
Lack of force heal wasn't the problem. I doubt Anakin would ever be satisfied no matter what powers he had. Padme was just fine until Anakin turned Sith and choked her. If he wanted to look out for her he would've cared about her wishes and ideals, which don't include slaughtering (non-Tusken) children and embracing space fascism. And in the end there was nothing medically wrong with Padme. The doctors couldn't help her because there was nothing for them to fix. Not much they can do when the force is draining her life energy in order to fix her husband's crispy-fried body.

Well if that was the intention the movie probably should've done something concrete to imply it. Either way the force heal is more a problem with narrative presentation than some sort of lore breakage. TROS does that in plenty of other ways.
 

Naphu

Member
Apr 6, 2018
736
I don't know why some folks are so insistent on trying to pin down what the force is and the extent of what it does. It would be easier to say it fucking does everything and people are just figuring it out by bits and pieces here and there. Enjoy the space wizard/samurai show

Because it causes unsatisfying story problems when used as a sudden Deus Ex Machina.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
Know else who can heal the sick and wounded? Regular doctors.

And like... present political trashfire aside, we typically don't ask that they do so at the supposed sacrifice of their own lifeforce to do it.

I shouldn't have to say this, but magic, instant healing with a touch is a pretty big deal. There was a guy on planet Earth who could allegedly do it and we still tell stories about him 2,000 years later. If tomorrow we woke up and someone had developed the ability to cure Corona with a touch, cure cancer, I think it'd be a significant moment for the human race. Pretty sure it might make the papers.

Again, my point here is that JJ Abrams wrote another laughable script with no consideration for the ramifications of anything in it. And, just like subsequent Star Trek writers have pretended his magic death-curing Khan blood doesn't exist, future Star Wars writers are going to sweep instant Wolverine-level Force Healing under the rug, too.
 
Nov 3, 2017
695
I can only second how lucky Lucas was that the internet wasn`t present during his filming of the original trilogy. Or when West End Games published their RPG. Constantly inventing new stuff. People would`ve lost their shit.

Or KOTOR *shudders*

Guess what? I play the Fantasy Flight Game RPG. Official licensed. There is a Heal/Harm force power in it. And that game came out before the last film.

Star Wars ruined? I guess so.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
If it helps just imagine that the Force isn't a spellbook where you do the right ritual and boom, healing. Think of it like any other tool in the world, just because a blacksmith can shape metal doesn't mean he can shape it into a computer. And just because I can swing a hammer doesn't mean I'm a blacksmith. Healing a damaged body would be a pretty complex operation, not a single move.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,273
lol that thread title is such a gnarly and gross mental picture. like a force power that makes worms grow in your flesh or something.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,246
why does luke force projection cost him his life when rey and ben are force skype fighting like it's nothing
Luke was using Force AT&T. That service is so bad, it literally ends up killing him.

Rey and Ben were on Google Force Fibre.

I think choosing your Force Service Provider carefully is like the entire message of the new Star Wars trilogy, come to think of it.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
OP states that it trivializes the past regarding Anakin's visions of Padme dying, but remember he couldn't just go ask the other Jedi how to save her when their relationship was a secret. though he probably could have asked after his mom died.

Another thing is that the Jedi didn't saw dying as the end, they think of the dead as rejoining the force so maybe they didn't tried to prevent someone like Qui Gon, who got split in half, to die and maybe remain in pain, as opposed to the Sith who keep themselves alive by pure hatred feeding the force.

Outside of Padme and Anakin's mom I don't think there's other scene where they could just apply force to the injury to save someone. Usually when someone dies in the films it's in a pretty instantaneous way.
The prequel Jedi did NOT know force healing... Rey did.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,227
I don't know why some folks are so insistent on trying to pin down what the force is and the extent of what it does. It would be easier to say it fucking does everything and people are just figuring it out by bits and pieces here and there. Enjoy the space wizard/samurai show

theyre just still mad at TROS like all of star wars hasnt been goofy af space camp.

get over it y'all
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,803
I thought she could heal because of her unique connection to Kylo gave her insight into how to manipulate her lifeforce or something (plus being super strong with the force), so I assumed its just a really hard to discover/use and rare ability.

Also didnt Padme die "from a broken heart" or something (plus being choked while close to labor)? Like the whole point was that if Anakin didnt give in to fear she would have been fine, dooming her because he tried to save her was supposed to be ironic or some shit, if he heard about force healing he would fail to learn it and Palpy would just dangle that on a stick in front of his face to make him turn.

In the end, force just does what force does, the vaguer it is the better.
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
12,384
Thailand
Force Healing isn't what Anakin looking for.
They're a bunch Jedi can do that.

He want revive or bring her soul back.

Go play or watch Vader Immortal VR game.
 

RocketKiss

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,691
The only can of worms that Star Wars opens is the one that was used in the assassination attempt of Padme.