RBH

Official ERA expert on Third Party Football
Member
Nov 2, 2017
33,316
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By Keith Naughton, Archie Hunter, and Heejin Kim


Ford Motor Co. has begun cutting orders from battery suppliers to stem growing electric-vehicle losses, according to people familiar with the matter, as it throttles back ambitions in a rapidly decelerating market for plug-in models.

Ford continues to maintain partnerships with its battery suppliers, which include South Korea's SK On Co. and LG Energy Solution Ltd., as well as China's Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Ltd., said the people, who asked not to be identified revealing internal decisions.

The move is part a retrenchment of Ford's EV strategy, which includes reducing spending by $12 billion on battery-powered models, delaying new EVs, cutting prices, and postponing and shrinking planned battery plants. Ford has forecast EV losses of up to $5.5 billion this year and Chief Executive Officer Jim Farley recently said its EV unit, Model e, "is the main drag on the whole company right now."

A spokesman for Ford said the company typically doesn't comment on relationships or terms with suppliers. CATL said its "cooperation with Ford is moving forward as normal" without elaborating. SK On and LG said their contracts with Ford remain in effect but didn't immediately address the prospect of order changes.

As EV prices have plunged and demand has slackened, Ford's losses per EV exceeded $100,000 in the first quarter, more than double the deficit from last year, one of the people said.

Bloomberg Intelligence estimates the losses Ford expects to sustain in its EV unit this year will come close to wiping out the profits it earns from its Ford Blue division, which makes traditional internal combustion engine vehicles like the Bronco SUV and gas-electric hybrids such as the Maverick truck.

"That raises questions about the prudence of investing heavily in EVs," BI analysts Steve Man and Peter Lau wrote in a May 3 research note.

The reduction in orders is a fresh sign of the headaches plaguing the industry. Automakers in the US are confronting EV demand that continues to fall short of expectations.

Meanwhile, battery makers in South Korea, China and elsewhere are dealing with a backlog of unsold inventory.

That, in turn, is rippling even further up the supply chain to impact prices for key metals like lithium, cobalt and nickel, which have all traded at multiyear lows this year, stalling investment decisions on new projects and, in some cases, leading to mine closures.

Ford officials say they have cut thousands in costs from their EVs to try to make them profitable, but they've also had to slash prices to remain competitive against market leader Tesla Inc., which has aggressively discounted its models.

"We've seen prices coming down quite dramatically and that's why we haven't been able to keep up from a cost reduction standpoint," John Lawler, Ford's chief financial officer, told analysts April 24 on the company's earnings call.

"But we're targeting to take out as much cost this year as we can on Model e and all in the spirit of driving toward that contribution margin positive."

Lawler was promoted to vice chair Friday to focus on long-term strategy and help find a way to stem the EV losses.

Ford is fast-tracking the development of small EVs that will start at $25,000 and debut in late 2026, Bloomberg has reported. Farley has said those models will be profitable within their first year on the market.

Finding a path to profitability on electric vehicles is critical to the company's long-term survival, Lawler said in an interview this month.

"Model e has to stand on its own," he said. "It needs to be profitable and it has to provide a return on the capital we're investing."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...es-top-100-000-per-car?embedded-checkout=true
 
Jan 23, 2024
398
I'm waiting for those small EVs mentioned in the article for $25k. I've zero interest in gigantic houses on wheels that used to cost what a whole-ass house cost circa 1985.
 
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NetMapel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,515
Maybe make smaller cars and not monster trucks and you'll get more people buying your cars. Smaller battery too.
 

The_R3medy

Member
Jan 22, 2018
2,876
Wisconsin
For gods sakes just make modestly sized cars at reasonable prices.

The market for a Ford F150 is almost always going to be with gas. The smaller cars, like a Focus or even something the size of a Bronco could work with EVs
 

smurfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
they could have made a ton of money from affordable hybrid mavericks but instead they would rather make more f150s and electric vehicles that don't sell.
 

Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
3,752
I believe this is net loss divided by number of vehicles sold. In other words, they are spreading expenses like advertisements, corporate overhead, etc of the EV division to each vehicle. It is not really a good way to count losses per vehicle, because per vehicle losses sound like you are counting only direct costs.
 

WizdogC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
522
I believe this is net loss divided by number of vehicles sold. In other words, they are spreading expenses like advertisements, corporate overhead, etc of the EV division to each vehicle. It is not really a good way to count losses per vehicle, because per vehicle losses sound like you are counting only direct costs.
Exactly this and the fact they do this annoys the shit out of me. It's the equivalent of taking a sound bite out of context. Normal people read this and jump to the worst conclusions
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
94,845
here
I believe this is net loss divided by number of vehicles sold. In other words, they are spreading expenses like advertisements, corporate overhead, etc of the EV division to each vehicle. It is not really a good way to count losses per vehicle, because per vehicle losses sound like you are counting only direct costs.
that makes more sense, but it still seems like they bought in too hard and in the wrong direction

i know trucks are very profitable for them, but they shoulda prob aimed for the tesla market
 

Tsuyu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,754
I believe this is net loss divided by number of vehicles sold. In other words, they are spreading expenses like advertisements, corporate overhead, etc of the EV division to each vehicle. It is not really a good way to count losses per vehicle, because per vehicle losses sound like you are counting only direct costs.

This make more sense because the sunk cost is high. Guess they sell way too little evs then.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,148
I believe this is net loss divided by number of vehicles sold. In other words, they are spreading expenses like advertisements, corporate overhead, etc of the EV division to each vehicle. It is not really a good way to count losses per vehicle, because per vehicle losses sound like you are counting only direct costs.
The main net loss is retooling of factory lines as changing from ICE to EV can be quite expensive. The cost then would be much smaller to update EV lines, but still it is very expensive upfront cost. But this is one of the things where car manufacturers talk about ev cars being a big cost for them but then they dont talk about how the retooling would need to be done regardless at some point and are just dragging their feet.
 

Randam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,925
Germany
Maybe make smaller cars and not monster trucks and you'll get more people buying your cars. Smaller battery too.
We always have the same argument in Germany, but when you look at the sales Numbers, then you'll see that small cars also have only small sales numbers.

Pick Ups, SUVs etc are the most wanted models.
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,725
"That raises questions about the prudence of investing heavily in EVs," BI analysts Steve Man and Peter Lau wrote in a May 3 research note.
Obviously Ford are doing it wrong right now but as a vehicle manufacturer, you have to heavily invest in EVs because how much longer will ICE be saleable? A decade, maybe two?

I think in the 2030s, you'll want to be making mostly EVs, so they do have to heavily invest in it now if they want to still be in business then.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,954
Toyota really accidentally'd into a strong market approach by not going all-in on EVs.

Yes, they're still incredibly dumb thinking hydrogen fuel cells are ever going to be a thing, but them not abandoning hybrids has proven to be a wise choice.
 

shiba5

I shed
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
15,873
I have a F-150. I tow with it. I'm not towing a horse trailer with a Lightning. It doesn't have the range, and I'm just imagining trying to park a Lightning + horse trailer at a charger (will it even fit?) with the horses standing there in a hot box while it does its thing.
They need to make cheaper evs that make sense. The Lightning is for people who just drive their F-150 around like a normal car.
 

winjet81

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,042
Honestly, no sympathy for Ford - I see this as just as likely Ford's tactic to be:

EV adoption + environmental considerations + poor transformational tooling practices + fat c-suite packages = government bail out.
 

Culex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,958
I keep saying this but WHY THE HELL are we not seeing an EV version of the Corolla or Civic?

It still boggles my mind.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,977
Richmond, VA
Ford thought it would start from the top down with the lightning, and it was obviously a mistake.

I had a preorder for one when it was announced, but I cancelled as it was just too big and expensive for my needs.

They should have started at a lower price point and worked back up. They aren't the only ones. Every EV that comes out is like a luxury model. Even Tesla is too pricey.
 

Yesterzine

Member
Jan 5, 2022
8,190
I keep saying this but WHY THE HELL are we not seeing an EV version of the Corolla or Civic?

It still boggles my mind.

Yeah, there's a million of that size in the UK now but no Corolla, no Civic, no Focus.

The Chinese (and Stellantis) are basically owning the whole thing with Renault close behind.
 

Excuse me

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,035
And there is probably going to be trafi hike on Chinese EVs, so US is probably going to take step back when it comes to affordable EVs. Maybe some euro cars will deliver good options, but I think many will go hybrid if prices won't come down.
 

SteveMeister

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,837
I have a F-150. I tow with it. I'm not towing a horse trailer with a Lightning. It doesn't have the range, and I'm just imagining trying to park a Lightning + horse trailer at a charger (will it even fit?) with the horses standing there in a hot box while it does its thing.
They need to make cheaper evs that make sense. The Lightning is for people who just drive their F-150 around like a normal car.
I DO tow a horse trailer with my Lightning! It has plenty of range for that. I'm not traveling cross country with the horses. Rarely more than about 30-40 miles each way maximum. We always make sure we're at a full state of charge before we go. That'll give us 100-160 miles, depending on the time of year.
The lack of pull-through charging stations is a problem. On the rare occasions where we've needed to charge with the trailer attached, we have either unhooked from the trailer, used an end charger at turn in so the trailer isn't straight back & isn't blocking another charger, or in one case there was a lane behind the chargers that we pulled up to & stretched the cord over.
The horses are fine during this. They have hay, shade, and if necessary we can give them water. But in most cases we aren't charging for very long, maybe 20 minutes at most. We only need enough to finish the trip.
We also use it to pick up hay & feed. It's absolutely farm-capable. But it's also super nice & comfortable, and great on road trips (without the trailer). You just stop about every 150-180 miles and charge up to 80%, and stretch your legs, grab a bite to eat, shop (lots of Electrify America stations are at Walmarts or shopping centers) or relax. You're back on the road in 20-30 minutes.
 

shiba5

I shed
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
15,873
I DO tow a horse trailer with my Lightning! It has plenty of range for that. I'm not traveling cross country with the horses. Rarely more than about 30-40 miles each way maximum. We always make sure we're at a full state of charge before we go. That'll give us 100-160 miles, depending on the time of year.
The lack of pull-through charging stations is a problem. On the rare occasions where we've needed to charge with the trailer attached, we have either unhooked from the trailer, used an end charger at turn in so the trailer isn't straight back & isn't blocking another charger, or in one case there was a lane behind the chargers that we pulled up to & stretched the cord over.
The horses are fine during this. They have hay, shade, and if necessary we can give them water. But in most cases we aren't charging for very long, maybe 20 minutes at most. We only need enough to finish the trip.
We also use it to pick up hay & feed. It's absolutely farm-capable. But it's also super nice & comfortable, and great on road trips (without the trailer). You just stop about every 150-180 miles and charge up to 80%, and stretch your legs, grab a bite to eat, shop (lots of Electrify America stations are at Walmarts or shopping centers) or relax. You're back on the road in 20-30 minutes.

I was always driving up and down the East Coast so it wouldn't be feasible. My friend has a huge, diesel dually for towing and her farm vehicle is a Prius. lol
 

Pomerlaw

Erarboreal
Member
Feb 25, 2018
8,628
Do not trust car makers. They would happily go back to gas only. They killed the electric car once and would love to do it again.
 

Lmo2017

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,149
To the east of Parts Unknown...
Bad planning all around. Trucks are popular but the prices were getting out of hand before the lightning was even released. Then you add this new model that was promised to be electric but also somewhat obtainable and the prices do exactly what any other truck price did, which killed the hype dead.

Ford even predicted this issue would happen by trying to bypass the dealer network all together, but couldn't make it happen.
 
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captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,087
Houston
"losing 100k per car"

is such irresponsible reporting. If you believe ford is losing 100k on every lightning sold, i have a bridge to sell you.

They're expanding and building plants, this takes an exceptional amount of capex to build these plants to build cars.
 

blackhawk163

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,259
For gods sakes just make modestly sized cars at reasonable prices.

The market for a Ford F150 is almost always going to be with gas. The smaller cars, like a Focus or even something the size of a Bronco could work with EVs
You mean the Bronco sport, I agree with you there.

Also does Ford not get Government subsidies for making EVs like Tesla did? Or is that (Tesla part) a myth?
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,087
Houston
The best way to tackle the climate crisis is mass transportation. We need to accept that reality.
100%
we need some high speed bullet trains please.

but even then, we're never going to build trains to everywhere.

I don't need that. please just make an affordable EV lol
they do, its called a mustag mach e, you can get one right now for 41k after the destination fees.

but even the lightning is affordable, relative to trucks. For instance on the gas side, they have a whole 3 models under 50k. Trucks are expensive, period. EV or not.

I DO tow a horse trailer with my Lightning! It has plenty of range for that. I'm not traveling cross country with the horses. Rarely more than about 30-40 miles each way maximum. We always make sure we're at a full state of charge before we go. That'll give us 100-160 miles, depending on the time of year.
The lack of pull-through charging stations is a problem. On the rare occasions where we've needed to charge with the trailer attached, we have either unhooked from the trailer, used an end charger at turn in so the trailer isn't straight back & isn't blocking another charger, or in one case there was a lane behind the chargers that we pulled up to & stretched the cord over.
The horses are fine during this. They have hay, shade, and if necessary we can give them water. But in most cases we aren't charging for very long, maybe 20 minutes at most. We only need enough to finish the trip.
We also use it to pick up hay & feed. It's absolutely farm-capable. But it's also super nice & comfortable, and great on road trips (without the trailer). You just stop about every 150-180 miles and charge up to 80%, and stretch your legs, grab a bite to eat, shop (lots of Electrify America stations are at Walmarts or shopping centers) or relax. You're back on the road in 20-30 minutes.
i always love when people without an electric truck tell us with actual electric trucks what they can and cant do. and also how we only use it to pick up groceries.

i also tow on occasion with mine. usually large log tree stumps, and the range loss is barely even noticeable cause the wind drag is negligible.
 

Mass Effect

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
16,963
Stop making giant electric trucks and give me an electric Mustang you cowards (no, not the Mach E)!
 

Chasex

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,707
I DO tow a horse trailer with my Lightning! It has plenty of range for that. I'm not traveling cross country with the horses. Rarely more than about 30-40 miles each way maximum. We always make sure we're at a full state of charge before we go. That'll give us 100-160 miles, depending on the time of year.
The lack of pull-through charging stations is a problem. On the rare occasions where we've needed to charge with the trailer attached, we have either unhooked from the trailer, used an end charger at turn in so the trailer isn't straight back & isn't blocking another charger, or in one case there was a lane behind the chargers that we pulled up to & stretched the cord over.
The horses are fine during this. They have hay, shade, and if necessary we can give them water. But in most cases we aren't charging for very long, maybe 20 minutes at most. We only need enough to finish the trip.
We also use it to pick up hay & feed. It's absolutely farm-capable. But it's also super nice & comfortable, and great on road trips (without the trailer). You just stop about every 150-180 miles and charge up to 80%, and stretch your legs, grab a bite to eat, shop (lots of Electrify America stations are at Walmarts or shopping centers) or relax. You're back on the road in 20-30 minutes.

It's cool you use it on a farm, it's definitely possible. People making it sound like it's totally impossible to use an EV truck for truck things are obviously wrong. On the other hand there are definitely sacrifices in practicality and price still. Hard to blame a family in rural America for buying a gas truck still.
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,419
I imagine the middle of the venn diagram for people that want an EV and people that want a truck/suv is fairly small.
 

Shadow2222

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,646
The F-150 is the best selling car in America. Making an electric version would've seemed like a slam dunk on paper.

I just bought a new '23 at a massive discount. It's a great truck.
 

Muu

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,984
$100k loss per vehicle sounds like they're including cost of retooling for EVs.
 

shiba5

I shed
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
15,873
I have a F-150. I tow with it. I'm not towing a horse trailer with a Lightning. It doesn't have the range, and I'm just imagining trying to park a Lightning + horse trailer at a charger (will it even fit?) with the horses standing there in a hot box while it does its thing.
They need to make cheaper evs that make sense. The Lightning is for people who just drive their F-150 around like a normal car.

Edit: Obviously I was wrong and will take the L.