Forza Motorsport will lock the framerate during online races "to ensure a consistent/competitive online racing experience"

[Linus815]

I wonder if this has to do with syncing player positions? If two players are side-by-side in a corner and one of them is at 120 fps while the other is at 60, that 8 ms difference could be about half a meter when going 100 mph which could mean one of them sees enough room for a clean pass while the other doesn't.

Considering the player base is sim/esports types, that kind of super pedantry might be warranted.

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And yet more serious simulators can make it work just fine with different framerates. Including GT7. Which supports 60 and 120 hz modes now.
And seeing the above, its not even gonna be locked at 60 fps for every monitor, which is pretty ridiculous. Its gonna work like FH where fps caps are based on evenly dividing your refresh rate, so 72 fps for 144 hz and 83 fps for 165 hz.

 

[chubigans]

View: https://twitter.com/Hoki_Hoshi/status/1693995078342357124?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1693995078342357124%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

It's a bit strange because of this. Maybe they will lock it down to the closest to 60fps integer divider of the refresh rate?


It says right after that you can unlock them

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Added a threadmark but that's still a bit confusing to me- so one lobby will be the 60fps lobby, the other the 120fps lobby, etc? Or am I reading that wrong?

 

[Pargon]

Presumably because they might be pushing the graphics for the menu or something, in fact GT7 has a lot of 30FPS menus when you enable RT

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That just sounds ridiculous to me, favoring graphics over responsiveness in a menu. But here we are.

I can't figure out why you cut off "however this can be unlocked in the video options menu" from the end of the sentence you quoted. It's like a recipe to spread FUD.

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It says "the first time you launch Forza Motorsport" right there. But I'll edit in the full quote if you think it's necessary.

 

[DrowsyJungle]

I've never really played motorsport for multiplayer but I can see the rational argument for the decision here. It would be frustrating for someone on console to get smoked by a player with a major response time advantage. The selfish side of myself is a little frustrated to be gimped by a platform I'm not playing on. But I get it.

 

[Gestault]

View: https://twitter.com/Hoki_Hoshi/status/1693995078342357124?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1693995078342357124%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

It's a bit strange because of this. Maybe they will lock it down to the closest to 60fps integer divider of the refresh rate?

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This makes it sound like the premise of the OP may not quite be accurate, specifically re: 60 fps. They didn't specify 60 fps for whatever it "locks" to in the write-up, so it sounds (?) like it sets the game at your monitor's max (and then you can limit the render below that).

Edit: Updated article does now specify 60 fps for the MP modes:

In multiplayer, framerates are locked to 60FPS to ensure a consistent and competitive online racing experience for all players across a variety of PC hardware configurations and the Xbox Series X|S consoles.

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[Linus815]

Added a threadmark but that's still a bit confusing to me- so one lobby will be the 60fps lobby, the other the 120fps lobby, etc? Or am I reading that wrong?

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No, there wont be different lobbies.

What hes saying that if your monitor doesnt divide evenly with 60, you get locked to whatever refresh rate your monitor supports thats closest to 60.
with 144hz it would be 72 fps, with 165hz 83 fps, etc.

 

[UltimateHigh]

higher frames is of course an advantage but by how much here? I dunno. I would say letting console turn off vsync and all that is more needed. that's the input delay that really sucks, and PC always has an advantage because of that alone.

 

[OGlol]

This has surely been asked a thousand times in the history of the internet but can someone refresh me the different between Horizon and Motorsport?

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horizon = fun
motorsport = serious

 

[Phinor]

Very weird decision. There's so many other things that can contribute far bigger advantage over the baseline setup than frame rate. Are there even any PC sim racing titles that are arbitrarily fps locked? I can't say I've ever encountered one.

 

[BloodHound]

I'm curious about the technical benefits/rationale for this. I trust T10 more than a lot of devs when it comes to technical priorities, so I'm assuming this is for a good reason. I'm sure we'll get interviews about it over time. The PC version is getting a lot of love based on all the news out of Gamescom, so this doesn't seem like it would be arbitrary.

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For those wanting to know why this is done....

View: https://youtu.be/p6doHF3nP94

 

[chubigans]

No, there wont be different lobbies.

What hes saying that if your monitor doesnt divide evenly with 60, you get locked to whatever refresh rate your monitor supports thats closest to 60.
with 144hz it would be 72 fps, with 165hz 83 fps, etc.

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ohhh gotcha, ok I'll update the OP.

 

[Ogawa-san]

Imagine if iRacing locked everyone to 60fps...

 

[Slayven]

I know the crazy rigs people have but is higher fps really that much of an advantage in racing? I honestly have no clue. I know it is in shooters and stuff… but racing?

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For the average person, marginally, but for serious players it can be a game changer.

 

[Just Great]

Fuck that.

 

[RivalGT]

How did the other Forza games get around this in the past, I'm sure the Horizon games play well together at all frame rates, even in online play.

Being limited to 60 fps for an online mode seems not great, especially in 2023. Update, it seems like maybe it locks the frame rate to half the monitors refresh rate.

Locking to half the monitors refresh rate is still rather terrible, a monitor will perform at its best, and have its lowest input lag at its highest refresh rate and frame rate.

 

[Linus815]

I've never really played motorsport for multiplayer but I can see the rational argument for the decision here. It would be frustrating for someone on console to get smoked by a player with a major response time advantage. The selfish side of myself is a little frustrated to be gimped by a platform I'm not playing on. But I get it.

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The extra framerate doesn't offer a major advantage, its absolutely minor, the setup however does, like custom controllers, wheels, ultra wide/multiscreen setup etc.

For those wanting to know why this is done....

View: https://youtu.be/p6doHF3nP94

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This has been known for a while but frankly if this is the reason and they hadn't actually fixed it for FM8, that's pretty incredible. Even Rockstar fixed framerate dependant physics for the PS5 release of GTA 5.

I'm personally skeptical though. Also I'm fairly sure the main difference in FH5 is between 30 and 60 fps, once you are comparing 60 with 120 the difference is near non existant.

How did the other Forza games get around this in the past, I'm sure the Horizon games play well together at all frame rates, even in online play.

Being limited to 60 fps for an online mode seems not great, especially in 2023.

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It's not a technical limitation most likely, just an attempt at evening the playing field but it seems like such a weird thing to tackle.

 

[Darkstorne]

It's a perfectly reasonable competitive rule to require a level playing field.

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"It's a level playing field because my FPS is capped at 60."

 

[zma1013]

So what about PCs tht can't acheive 60 fps? Are they then going to limit the consoles to 30 fps?

Like, what is going on here this is ridiculous. Shit aint that serious.

 

[UraMallas]

Isn't this just saying that each person is locked to their own frame rate and not the entire lobby locked to the same frame rate?

 

[zolee]

Ah yes, that will ensure there is no advantage due to a persons video output...

*laughs in 32:9*

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until you get locked to 16:9

 

[kenjieno]

GT7 caps at 120. Can't they do the same?

 

[pksu]

For those wanting to know why this is done....

View: https://youtu.be/p6doHF3nP94

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So the limit is just a workaround for their design flaws

 

[RivalGT]

The extra framerate doesn't offer a major advantage, its absolutely minor, the setup however does, like custom controllers, wheels, ultra wide/multiscreen setup etc.



This has been known for a while but frankly if this is the reason and they hadn't actually fixed it for FM8, that's pretty incredible. Even Rockstar fixed framerate dependant physics for the PS5 release of GTA 5.

I'm personally skeptical though. Also I'm fairly sure the main difference in FH5 is between 30 and 60 fps, once you are comparing 60 with 120 the difference is near non existant.



It's not a technical limitation most likely, just an attempt at evening the playing field but it seems like such a weird thing to tackle.

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60 fps or half a monitors refresh rate is still rather terrible, if a 240hz monitor is locked at 120hz its not able to perform at its best, and it will just introduce more input lag, any benefits that monitor would of had are gone. There are other factors that will also be worse, but from a gameplay perspective that is the worst one.

 

[SteveWinwood]

have a pc only online multiplayer that doesnt have cross play and allows unlocked frame rates

there i came up with a solution that shouldn't exist because the problem itself is manufactured

 

[wrongway]

I call shenanigans. None of the other sims on PC institute framerate caps. Enforced 'consistency' also doesn't square with supporting ultrawide aspect ratios and wheels.

For those wanting to know why this is done....

View: https://youtu.be/p6doHF3nP94

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oof.

 

[Gangrel]

Will pc have vr and/or multi monitor support?

 

[LCGeek]

Partially but FH5 has a bug related to someone having higher fps and giving an advantage but this video goes in to the problem.

Should watch the video and factor that reason for the cap was gonna tag and quote reply but the complaint is so much you can either check the link or keep complaining.

FPS does matter considering this bug can induce a 5/10ths difference in some races just from a 30/60fps difference and it gets worse the way higher you go. Only crowd that would want this are HFS bastards like myself and that want that advantage which I don't care for.

pksu posts the same video.

nice to see the complaining part of the site decided to complain vs look for something known for a while.

 

[chubigans]

I don't think Horizon and Motorsport run on the same engine yeah? I mean Horizon would be much further along since it has so many more releases.

 

[Deleted member 22750]

So the limit is just a workaround for their design flaws

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This is forza not horizon and they've gone into detail about the new tires and physics for this game

Until there is data on this game we shouldn't be saying it's a 1:1 to horizon

 

[Theorry]

I don't think Horizon and Motorsport run on the same engine yeah? I mean Horizon would be much further along since it has so many more releases.

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Same engine. Both pg and turn 10 work on it and benefit from each others upgrades

 

[elenarie]

You certainly know more than I do about how this multiplayer stuff all works but I wonder if this has to do with syncing (perceived) player positions? If two players are side-by-side in a corner and one of them is at 120 fps while the other is at 60, that 8 ms difference could be about half a meter when going 100 mph which could mean one of them sees enough room for a clean pass while the other doesn't. The physics itself runs at hundreds of fps but maybe this is all about what the player can see on screen?

Considering the player base is sim/esports types, that kind of super pedantry might be warranted.

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I don't really know how their tech works, but the advantage would be so mathematically minimal, it is irrelevant. Which is why I would like to learn more.

Can only share a perspective from Battlefield here. Let's take 2042 since it is more recent. Client side render is entirely unlocked. So the game can render at any amount of fps, as long as your gpu and cpu can push for it. Local sim rate is locked to 45. Network tick rate is locked at 45. This means the data the game gets from the server gets refreshed 45 times per second. And the local simulation and logic also runs 45 times per second.

Regardless of whether the game renders at 60 fps or 120 fps or whatever. From a simulation and network update point of view, every game client is in the exact same state. It only becomes a problem if the local sim rate starts dropping below 45, but you have bigger issues then.

The advantage in our case world be smoother perceived presentation for 120 vs 60, but the internal logic and state would be the same across every player.

 

[LCGeek]

I don't think Horizon and Motorsport run on the same engine yeah? I mean Horizon would be much further along since it has so many more releases.

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The physics are shared.

 

[Just Great]

Partially but FH5 has a bug related to someone having higher fps and giving an advantage but this video goes in to the problem.

Should watch the video and factor that reason for the cap was gonna tag and quote reply but the complain is so much you can either check the link or keep complaining.

FPS does matter considering this bug can induce a 5/10ths difference in some races just from a 30/60fps and it gets worse the way higher you go. Only crowd that would want this are HFS bastards like myself and that want that advantage which I don't care for.

pksu posts the same video.

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I'm trying to think of a reason why I, a consumer, should simply accept this because of their physics bugs and I'm drawing a blank.

 

[LCGeek]

I'm trying to think of a reason why I, a consumer, should simply accept this because of their physics bugs and I'm drawing a blank.

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Ok do you want me or hfs users to have a half second advantage in a sim like game that is not because of skill? its leads to seconds of differences in the right moments especially if you are considering the guy was using good race lines to compare the problem not people being randomly off in the moment.

It's not soley a physics bug but the interaction of that and fps networking would only make it worse on various configs of players to keep synced.

 

[keyrodi]

This is an odd choice, to the point where I can say it's absolutely meaningless. I don't know why they're doing this.

In racing games, especially sim racers, you do not make snap decisions on a track. You race well because you know how to navigate the track and you know how to react to other drivers when they're 3-4 cars ahead of you. I cannot imagine a framerate difference separating two racers' skill to a discernable degree.

First person shooters, a genre in which a higher framerate objectively increases your accuracy, tracking, and visibility and can increase a player's performances, do not cap framerates on PC commonly.

This is so strange.

 

[writhingcorpse897]

Doesn't affect me as I will rarely touch MP and I doubt I'll be getting higher than 60fps with everything turned up.

 

[Connope]

The physics are shared.

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That article was last updated 4 years ago and is about Motorsport 7. Motorsport (2023) is supposed to have "overhauled" physics (which yeah, doesn't mean much, but that article is about a different game) https://forza.net/news/forza-motorsport-the-most-technically-advanced-racing-game-ever-made.

Obviously a chance the same problem's still there though, yeah.

 

[Just Great]

Ok do you want me or hfs users to have a half second advantage in a sim like game that is not because of skill?

It's not soley a physics bug but the interaction of that and fps networking would only make it worse on various configs of players to keep synced.

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How about they fix their underlying issues, because it's not an issue in iRacing.

 

[BloodHound]

I don't think Horizon and Motorsport run on the same engine yeah? I mean Horizon would be much further along since it has so many more releases.

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Same engine. The physics have been heavily evolved for motorsport but the foundation should be the same, so I'm sure the physics are still tied to framerate.

 

[LCGeek]

How about they fix their underlying issues, because it's not an issue in iRacing.

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I'm not against that only suggesting some very basic reasons why synchronization might suck for them, not that they shouldn't fix it and do better.

 

[LumberPanda]

I don't really know how their tech works, but the advantage would be so mathematically minimal, it is irrelevant. Which is why I would like to learn more.

Can only share a perspective from Battlefield here. Let's take 2042 since it is more recent. Client side render is entirely unlocked. So the game can render at any amount of fps, as long as your gpu and cpu can push for it. Local sim rate is locked to 45. Network tick rate is locked at 45. This means the data the game gets from the server gets refreshed 45 times per second. And the local simulation and logic also runs 45 times per second.

Regardless of whether the game renders at 60 fps or 120 fps or whatever. From a simulation and network update point of view, every game client is in the exact same state. It only becomes a problem if the local sim rate starts dropping below 45, but you have bigger issues then.

The advantage in our case world be smoother perceived presentation for 120 vs 60, but the internal logic and state would be the same across every player.

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It seems there's an issue with physics simulations incrementing in 33ms vs 16.7ms vs 8.3ms. Intuitively this makes sense to me as someone whose done many DE simulation courses for my B.Math, but I'm not a game dev so I don't know if that intuition holds up.

My question is this: If they lock physics simulation to 16.7ms for everyone, and you're refreshing your render at a locked 8.3ms, what exactly would Forza show for those "alternating" frames where there's no physics simulation? Would the camera move forward but the car not move forward? Or would it need to provide an estimate for where the car should be, and then have the car "snap" back to the "real" 16.7ms physics?

How about they fix their underlying issues, because it's not an issue in iRacing.

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Has there been thorough testing to know if this is actually true?

 

[Just Great]

I'm not against that only suggesting some very basic reasons why synchronization might suck for them, not that they shouldn't fix it and do better.

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If their solution is to hamper the player experience instead of figuring out the real problem then their game isn't ready to be released as far as I'm concerned.

 

[BloodHound]

It seems there's an issue with physics simulations incrementing in 33ms vs 16.7ms vs 8.3ms. Intuitively this makes sense to me as someone whose done many DE simulation courses for my B.Math, but I'm not a game dev so I don't know if that intuition holds up.

My question is this: If they lock physics simulation to 16.7ms for everyone, and you're refreshing your render at a locked 8.3ms, what exactly would Forza show for those "alternating" frames where there's no physics simulation? Would the camera move forward but the car not move forward? Or would it need to provide an estimate for where the car should be, and then have the car "snap" back to the "real" 16.7ms physics?

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Based on the physics video on horizon 5, it would affect the timer and your car position.

 

[Lant_War]

It seems there's an issue with physics simulations incrementing in 33ms vs 16.7ms vs 8.3ms. Intuitively this makes sense to me as someone whose done many DE simulation courses for my B.Math, but I'm not a game dev so I don't know if that intuition holds up.

My question is this: If they lock physics simulation to 16.7ms for everyone, and you're refreshing your render at a locked 8.3ms, what exactly would Forza show for those "alternating" frames where there's no physics simulation? Would the camera move forward but the car not move forward? Or would it need to provide an estimate for where the car should be, and then have the car "snap" back to the "real" 16.7ms physics?

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Physics simulation happens at 360hz in the new Forza regardless iirc. Same as in other sims, framerate doesn't (or shouldn't) affect the physics update

 

[MadDogTannen]

Ludicrous decision making tbh

 

[LumberPanda]

Physics simulation happens at 360hz in the new Forza regardless iirc. Same as in other sims, framerate doesn't (or shouldn't) affect the physics update

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Interesting. I guess my question only matters if the physics simulation is less than the render framerate, the other way around the question doesn't matter at all.

Based on the physics video on horizon 5, it would affect the timer and your car position.

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Horizon 5 doesn't seem to implement the solution that elenarie described.

 

[LCGeek]

Physics simulation happens at 360hz in the new Forza regardless iirc. Same as in other sims, framerate doesn't affect the physics.

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So they upped it even more from previous games and they added more complexity, they must really be liking what the new ryzens allow them to get away with. That tire video on physics that happened recently was crazy to me.

If their solution is to hamper the player experience instead of figuring out the real problem then their game isn't ready to be released as far as I'm concerned.

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Your right there with some influencers, but this problem may not have a solution that is doable in a quick time, they never fixed leaderboards cheating and that is way simpler than what it is being discussed. Devs are only gonna do what they can till MS wants this out.

 

[Just Great]

It seems there's an issue with physics simulations incrementing in 33ms vs 16.7ms vs 8.3ms. Intuitively this makes sense to me as someone whose done many DE simulation courses for my B.Math, but I'm not a game dev so I don't know if that intuition holds up.

My question is this: If they lock physics simulation to 16.7ms for everyone, and you're refreshing your render at a locked 8.3ms, what exactly would Forza show for those "alternating" frames where there's no physics simulation? Would the camera move forward but the car not move forward? Or would it need to provide an estimate for where the car should be, and then have the car "snap" back to the "real" 16.7ms physics?


Has there been thorough testing to know if this is actually true?

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Given the myriad of community tools to analyze replay/lap data and how long iRacing has existed, if there was a wonky situation like this it certainly would've been noticed by now.

 

[bitcloudrzr]

copy pasting my comment from the other thread:

I feel pretty bad about it, because theres a lot of other things that provide much more tangible advantages, like having custom controllers, controllers with paddles, wheels, multi monitor setups....... and the list goes on.

the added benefit of 60 + fps is miniscule beyond the game just feeling better. Its not gonna make a tangible difference in reaction times or whatever. And yeah if shooters allow different framerates (even on consoles!) then i find it a bit insane that a racing game wouldn't.


IMO, the justification of "fairness" is bullshit. Even something like, your TV's input latency, or how far you sit will have much much larger effect on your performance than high refresh rate.

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Shooters on console and controller also have a lot of AA though so facing 120fps is not that big of a deal. Although I also agree that it was not that big of an advatanhe to begin with.

 

[hanshen]

Same engine. The physics have been heavily evolved for motorsport but the foundation should be the same, so I'm sure the physics are still tied to framerate.

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The physics simulation runs at 360 hz regardless of framerate.