Foundation (Apple TV+) - Jared Harris Goes to Space... Again [SEE STAFF POST]
- Thread starter Spectromixer
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That really doesn't mean anything. Look at Wheel of Time. Had Jordan's widow and Sanderson on staff and couldn't be bothered to stay true to what made the story good.
The Expanse and book based GoT are examples of how you convert great source material to the screen.
I came into this without any knowledge of the source material and absolutely loved it. One of the best shows of last year for me, and I watched over 80 seasons last year so it had some competition.
I found all of the mysteries in the show captivating. Their resolutions always unique and unexpected yet believable. I was excited for each character's journey, I couldn't wait to see where they'd go. Most of all, the scale of it all was masterful. It's hard to tell a story that will span centuries, but so far they've done it.
I don't know how it was unfaithful to the source material. Maybe that would have been even better. But I also don't care. What we got was excellent. I'm looking forward to season 2.
On the contrary, I absolutely love the Wheel of Time books. They shaped my interests as a child and still inform what I love today. The Wheel of Time show was a great adaptation in my mind overall. No, I didn't like all of the changes, but I did understand them and, most importantly, the characters are still the same characters in the ways that count.
I think a lot of book readers fear change in their adaptations. But change is necessary. The mediums are not at all the same. They require different techniques to tell a story. The real question we should be asking is whether the soul of the source is still intact. For wheel of time, it is. I can't speak for Foundation on that aspect.
I found all of the mysteries in the show captivating. Their resolutions always unique and unexpected yet believable. I was excited for each character's journey, I couldn't wait to see where they'd go. Most of all, the scale of it all was masterful. It's hard to tell a story that will span centuries, but so far they've done it.
I don't know how it was unfaithful to the source material. Maybe that would have been even better. But I also don't care. What we got was excellent. I'm looking forward to season 2.
On the contrary, I absolutely love the Wheel of Time books. They shaped my interests as a child and still inform what I love today. The Wheel of Time show was a great adaptation in my mind overall. No, I didn't like all of the changes, but I did understand them and, most importantly, the characters are still the same characters in the ways that count.
I think a lot of book readers fear change in their adaptations. But change is necessary. The mediums are not at all the same. They require different techniques to tell a story. The real question we should be asking is whether the soul of the source is still intact. For wheel of time, it is. I can't speak for Foundation on that aspect.
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I don't want to derail this thread more, especially since we have discussion threads for WoT.
Foundation tells a decent story and I do like the Empire stuff mostly because of Pace. But the soul of Asimov's Psychohistory does not come through. It should be the centerpiece of the story as experts wrestle with this insanely powerful humanity altering algorithm.
Maybe it's not suitable for transition to TV but that's what made these stories so fascinating to young nerds like me when I discovered it almost 40 years ago. It was like nothing I had read before.
I finished the first season yesterday, after starting about a week ago. Spoilers ahead.
I liked it overall, as it was exciting to get back into a big sci-fi show that was more the abstract weirdness of Logan's Run than the merchandising engine of Star Wars:
Just a couple of things:
1) I love the scope of the story, but it felt like the pace swings wildly and got bogged down with uninteresting details (namely on the Terminus side of things).
2) Love the diversity in the cast, but I hate that there are monoculture planets, and "the barbarians" are, you guessed it, brown people from planet brown. And Gaal herself gets so many racist compliments about her intelligence, i.e. the "so well spoken" problem. I do appreciate that they brought the Anacrians into the fold by the end, but this came off like a "redemption' for them that was totally unnecessary.
3) Hari Seldon is so full of shit and I'm not 100% sure the show understands that. On one hand he is an almost satirical portrait of a Randian "Great Man" (the thing about him dying and being sent off in "a casket he designed himself" sounded like a parody, except it was another plot device). On the other, he is functionally the magic smart white man who comes out to un-fuck the situation when it's absolutely necessary - like a Gandalf with fascist aspirations.
4) "The Plan" - I really can't help but draw comparisons between Foundation and Battlestar Galactica - particularly because they both underline this plot device. Prophecies are nothing new to stories, but what has been a bit frustrating about this in Foundation is that 'The Plan' is seemingly perfect, all-wise, and self-fulfilling. Any sort of complication was all just part of the plan. Many people complain that BSG had 'no actual plan', but I found it more exciting to see that show go off the rails while still, ultimately, making it to its destination. There were very few reassurances that it was all 'according to schedule', which made the ride wild. Foundation's domino effect comes off more contrived.
I liked it overall, as it was exciting to get back into a big sci-fi show that was more the abstract weirdness of Logan's Run than the merchandising engine of Star Wars:
Just a couple of things:
1) I love the scope of the story, but it felt like the pace swings wildly and got bogged down with uninteresting details (namely on the Terminus side of things).
2) Love the diversity in the cast, but I hate that there are monoculture planets, and "the barbarians" are, you guessed it, brown people from planet brown. And Gaal herself gets so many racist compliments about her intelligence, i.e. the "so well spoken" problem. I do appreciate that they brought the Anacrians into the fold by the end, but this came off like a "redemption' for them that was totally unnecessary.
3) Hari Seldon is so full of shit and I'm not 100% sure the show understands that. On one hand he is an almost satirical portrait of a Randian "Great Man" (the thing about him dying and being sent off in "a casket he designed himself" sounded like a parody, except it was another plot device). On the other, he is functionally the magic smart white man who comes out to un-fuck the situation when it's absolutely necessary - like a Gandalf with fascist aspirations.
4) "The Plan" - I really can't help but draw comparisons between Foundation and Battlestar Galactica - particularly because they both underline this plot device. Prophecies are nothing new to stories, but what has been a bit frustrating about this in Foundation is that 'The Plan' is seemingly perfect, all-wise, and self-fulfilling. Any sort of complication was all just part of the plan. Many people complain that BSG had 'no actual plan', but I found it more exciting to see that show go off the rails while still, ultimately, making it to its destination. There were very few reassurances that it was all 'according to schedule', which made the ride wild. Foundation's domino effect comes off more contrived.
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I subscribed to + for another year before this arrived, it was easy to do as I have been hoping for something Foundation related ever since I read the books. After watching this abomination it will be just as easy to skip another year.
I thought the empire story was solid and this must have been what Goyer had wanted to film in the first place and just frankensteined 1% of the foundation into it to get his funding. He basically confirmed that in watching the start of that mindscape interview. Failed adaptation is one thing but this is just dirty. Villeneuve and his love for the source material is what you hope for, foundation fans got a con man and now we will never receive a proper series/movie. Fuck Goyer.
I thought the empire story was solid and this must have been what Goyer had wanted to film in the first place and just frankensteined 1% of the foundation into it to get his funding. He basically confirmed that in watching the start of that mindscape interview. Failed adaptation is one thing but this is just dirty. Villeneuve and his love for the source material is what you hope for, foundation fans got a con man and now we will never receive a proper series/movie. Fuck Goyer.
But that's the point, isn't it? It's a prophecy that the characters are struggling with. If the prophecy didn't get fulfilled, it wouldn't be relevant.
Importantly, I think this prophecy was quite well-written. It wasn't perfect — as soon as they get off-world everything goes haywire when Gaal doesn't go to Terminus and the dude dies. It happens again when Gaal refuses to help start the second Foundation. It happens a 3rd time when Gaal's daughter, who effectively stepped up to take Gaal's place, decides to abandon the Foundation.
It also wasn't self-fulfilling. Every turning point revolves around decisions of an individual.
It's not all-wise because it can't predict what an individual will do. We see evidence of that throughout the season.
Perhaps you don't like the prophecy trope in general. That's fair. But I don't think it's fair to call this series' prophecy a bad one. In fact, I think expressly making it so that it can't predict individuals makes it that much more interesting than your average prophecy.
There is a second season. I really hope they're able to improve the show for a second season
So apparently Foundation season 2 has already started filming...? Wonder if we can get it by the end of the year or will have to wait until 2023...
Also, I wonder what that image is all about...Definitely glad they are showing more Empire stuff either way.
https://collider.com/foundation-season-2-image-lee-pace-jared-harris-cast-apple-tv-plus/
Also, I wonder what that image is all about...Definitely glad they are showing more Empire stuff either way.
https://collider.com/foundation-season-2-image-lee-pace-jared-harris-cast-apple-tv-plus/
I see they're leading with "Lee Pace wearing revealing outfits"
Finally got around to watching this and binged it all. Enjoyed it, with the Clone Dynasty stuff in particular being outstanding. Pace was born for that role.
Show is gorgeous as well, if a bit uneven visually between episodes from time to time.
Interested to see where it goes in S2
Show is gorgeous as well, if a bit uneven visually between episodes from time to time.
Interested to see where it goes in S2
Currently wrapped up episode 9 and man there is something very grating and frustrating about some of the character drama in this show. It just feels like it wants to hit certain points on a story template rather than actually building up to and earning those beats. There were times when I found myself desperately wanting to fast-forward through certain scenes/dialogue just so I can get to the more interesting aspects.
I can't help but feel like I wouldn't have minded certain parts being outright cut to make slimmer episodes. A lot of these narrative reinforcement scenes would've been better to have not made it off the cutting room floor. For example: did we really need to see an extended past scene of Synnax, when it was already succinctly explained in the opening episode? Did we really have to have our heads bashed in about destiny, fate, and how lucky Salvor is almost every time she's on-screen?
The characters aren't any more interesting for these and I might actually like them more if they just let them serve their roles on-screen without feeling insulted every time they go about reiterating it.
Now on the positive, visually striking at times, found myself really wanting to always see more of those moving paintings whenever they were shown. Lee Pace crushes his role in this, Harris is always a pleasure, as well Laura Birn, Kubbra Sait and T'Nia Miller all have done great in their more limited roles.
I can't help but feel like I wouldn't have minded certain parts being outright cut to make slimmer episodes. A lot of these narrative reinforcement scenes would've been better to have not made it off the cutting room floor. For example: did we really need to see an extended past scene of Synnax, when it was already succinctly explained in the opening episode? Did we really have to have our heads bashed in about destiny, fate, and how lucky Salvor is almost every time she's on-screen?
The characters aren't any more interesting for these and I might actually like them more if they just let them serve their roles on-screen without feeling insulted every time they go about reiterating it.
Now on the positive, visually striking at times, found myself really wanting to always see more of those moving paintings whenever they were shown. Lee Pace crushes his role in this, Harris is always a pleasure, as well Laura Birn, Kubbra Sait and T'Nia Miller all have done great in their more limited roles.
Oh my god, that was a frustrating watch.
It's really irritating how they do such a good job with the Empire aspect of the show only to go 180 everywhere else. Terminus got ass over tea kettle stupid when Hari popped in and basically solved interstellar peace in the middle east while also validating Phara by telling everyone they're actually revolutionaries meant to fight against the Empire. He also comes off as a major dick when he just decides to peace out after dropping in for 5 minutes, but hey he talked to the kids on the way out. Oh, that wacky, lovable Hari who just pisses off everyone, but knows what's best! And the ending, Gaal's journey to Synnax seems incredibly contrived. Going into Season 2 on that note, I'm not sure the purpose of her story or Salvor's at this beyond deus ex machina.
Agreed. This is something that happens a lot in space based science fiction. And while it can be valid at times, particularly early colonization of a planet. At a certain point these planets really should be diversifying.
Like we're talking entire planets here, but stories only write about one small corner of that planet, and often handwave things away as it's the only place on that planet.
Just finished this yesterday. I know nothing about the source material so I don't care about that, and liked parts of it, but felt it got worse near the end. The entire ending portion with the Invictus just had too many coincidences.
Lee Pace obviously the standout for most of it. Him and the Zephyr on Maiden was pretty good.
Lee Pace obviously the standout for most of it. Him and the Zephyr on Maiden was pretty good.
Just finished season 1 yesterday. Like a lot of people, I thought the Empire storyline was fantastic but the stuff on Terminus…wasn't great.
The explanation of the Vault was really dumb, I thought. To the settlers on Terminus (people who are ostensibly familiar with the Empire and its technology), the Vault is a mysterious artifact that's beyond any level of technology they've seen before. Almost magical. But then it turns out that Hari swallowed some nanobots and the nanobots turned his casket into the Vault? Where did these magical nanobots come from, and why does Hari have access to technology beyond that of a galactic empire?
I'll keep watching because I'm a sucker for sci-fi and the show can be gorgeous, but there's a lot of sloppiness to season 1 that makes it impossible for me to recommend this show to people. Lee Pace and the rest of the Empire actors are killing it, though!
The explanation of the Vault was really dumb, I thought. To the settlers on Terminus (people who are ostensibly familiar with the Empire and its technology), the Vault is a mysterious artifact that's beyond any level of technology they've seen before. Almost magical. But then it turns out that Hari swallowed some nanobots and the nanobots turned his casket into the Vault? Where did these magical nanobots come from, and why does Hari have access to technology beyond that of a galactic empire?
I'll keep watching because I'm a sucker for sci-fi and the show can be gorgeous, but there's a lot of sloppiness to season 1 that makes it impossible for me to recommend this show to people. Lee Pace and the rest of the Empire actors are killing it, though!
Yeah i finished S1 over the weekend and this is exactly how I feel about the seires. Found the terminus/foundation storylines so damn jarring both in terms of pacing and tone.
The Empire storyline was easily the best, Lee Pace and the older actor killed it their roles.
Didn't the people on her pla et follow some weird anti science religion though? That might be why it's not very diversified.
you also had the "indian planet" though, I hate the "everyone from this village have the same facial features so you can tell where they're from"-trope in fantasy, and it's even worse when it's done in Sci-fi
There are a group of SciFi authors who go hard in "monoethnic/monoreligious cultures are the most advanced and stable entities in the galaxy"
Just look at Peter F Hamilton, in the Nights Dawn trilogy, the multicultural planets are depicted as failed states/planets and hardcore monocultures or religions are the most advanced and stable.
While I absolutely don't believe that multicultural or multireligious planets are doomed from the start and mono planets are a path to success,
I do believe that in a future where we either colonize hundreds of planets or more realistically, millions of O'Neill cylinders, that we shouldn't cram in cultural or religious diversity for diversity's sake.
If there is abundant space, cultures and religions should be able to make mono societies if they want.
Minorities in a country don't always choose to be in the country they end up with. Either they were conquered, driven from their homes, fleeing conflict, or they had no home country for hundreds of years. Truth is, they would rather have their own country instead of being a minority in a country just for diversity's sake.
