unless you were about to hand down some cash, i'm curious what kind of advice or help you would be offering that could possibly be of use to OP.
fuck capitalism
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Depending on the issue, anything from direction to a relevant financial assistance program, budgeting software, things that could cut down the cost of living if relevant etc.
I don't really understand the hostility tbh, I've been in debt and had enough friends and colleagues in debt to hear every reason under the sun as to how it can eventuate, I just wanted to help *shrugs*
budgeting apps and austerity help, for someone screaming "fuck the system, it's drowning me"?
ok i guess.
and its not hostility, its the barest tiny bit of resistance
Okay maybe not hostility, but your responses have been dry and snarky. I'm not going to let you bring down my mood because I didn't yell "fuck the system" and instead had the audacity to ask OP what was wrong.
Enjoy your day. OP I hope things work out. I'm out. This forum sometimes, yeesh.
Oh man, this is so incredibly tone deaf. Do you think everyone is living in conditions that they can even afford to observe the different people at a gym. You know that there are places people live that don't have drinkable water right? Food desserts for 50+ miles. There are areas of cities that literally are boarded up and collapsed for many blocks. I've seen this in both Detroit and Chicago. This corrupt as system funnels money to lucrative areas and then lets people live in squalor while rich people are spending 1000 dollars on a meal because "fuck you why not?"
Price systems are means for an economic system to provide valuation to any commodity in the form of money. In modern price systems, that is expressed by fiat money (a promissory note that suggests it has value but does not have any intrinsic value itself).
What most of the world operates on, even socialist countries, is a "free price system", where prices are determined mostly arbitrarily based on what a consumer is willing to spend for it and nothing more.
This, for one example, is why carbon pricing is such a demonstrably polarizing idea in society, because it imposes a value on, and thus commoditizes, befouling the earth, an act which people find both abhorrent in one hand and not something they believe should add value to a product on the other, along with some corporations who place no value on true sustainability and thus reject the price that's applied to it.
Conversely, it allows the commoditization of human suffering, which is why we fine big corporate polluters in lieu of jailing them, more often than not. Or sometimes governments just take kickbacks to look the other way. But in either case, it is commoditizing suffering by putting a price on it. The price system not only allows it but encourages it.
capitalism COULD exist theoretically without the price systems we have. But billionaires and paupers alike seem to appreciate the arbitrary nature of the current system far too much to part with it.
EDIT: People come into threads like this talking about Marx, but attention would be better given to Thorstein Veblen, who was also more anti-price system than anti-capitalist, but understood how those terms are almost always inexorably linked together, regardless of whether or not they should be. Interpretation of Marx by Lenin and Mao and other through the price system lens is part of why I think communism has inevitably failed, but that's a whole other discussion. But it is why I say that the price system fails us all, even those in socialist countries.
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that's the thing. it's not about your mood.
it's more the "why are you in debt" question which too often is an appraisal of someone's situation and whether the circumstances are deserved or not over an offer of real help.
and so when I ask what have you got, you have a suggestion for some programs, maybe some helpful apps, or maybe a suggestion to tighten the old belt buckle. in today's world.
with systemic, foundational issues with our society, your help might be less helpful than you think. that's all.
and again, it's not you, and its not your fault the system and it's so called "remedies" are so limited. it's not your fault that a good mood and some standard advice might help, or might be useless.
Private property that is free and equal access to anyone who needs it is way more socialist my dude.
A capitalist gym would have a group of men with sticks beat everyone off all the equipment. They would then create a new set of rules that says that if people don't pay them for the equipment they will be beaten and removed from the gym permenatly. They can kick you off the equipment whenever they want. New owners of equipment are chosen by the current owner, usually their children. All people are allowed to vote for a new gym manager. If you don't use the equipment you starve to death.
I mean, I appreciate the sentiment you're espousing here, but actually we know what capitalist gyms would look like because that's the kind of gym that exists in our society.
You should've stopped with "if you don't pay for access to the equipment you will be kicked out of the gym with violence" because that is, actually, implicitly true and notable.
Student debt seems to be more of a US problem than capitalism problem, a lot of other capitalist counties around the world have already solved this.
I agree, that's a much better example of what I was looking for.
Holodomor - Wikipedia
Capitalism is a very flawed economic system, which I severe issues with - this is why I like to reform it. There are many injustices in how its build and caused, which you'd find I agree with you about on many issues on the subject I suspect. In fact, I like when countries utilise both socialism and capitalism together to dilute them and fill in the gaps of each other's flaws. The Cold War was a horrific disaster which both sides can lay claim to horrendous body counts, as well as Communist countries who did to their own before the Cold War began outside their borders (Soviet Union, China, Cambodia).
That's the problem. You don't want dialogue, you want blind obedience. No introspection, no acknowledgement that socialism/Communism is just as flawed as capitalism is, no building bridges to share our common interests.
I'm not whitewashing anything. You, however, are whitewashing how bad the Communist countries were in practice.
This thread is exhausting. As a non-American I find the discourse to have a certain quality that is incredibly aggravating, even as I might agree with much of the sentiment.
Few things come in my mind reading this thread.
The definition of capitalism change from a person by person, for example, I think the social democracies in Europe are capitalist.
Some of the issue people have a gripe with are American issues, not necessarily something about capitalism.
People here compare a real example of compromise: the American system (even no the best compromise people found) with their idealized idea that currently doesn't exist in any real form.
The definition of capitalism change from a person by person, for example, I think the social democracies in Europe are capitalist.
Some of the issue people have a gripe with are American issues, not necessarily something about capitalism.
People here compare a real example of compromise: the American system (even no the best compromise people found) with their idealized idea that currently doesn't exist in any real form.
Yup agreed.
I sympathise with the US era users who are stuck in heavy debt and working in jobs that can't deliver a basic quality of life let alone enable them to clear their debts and live better but I am grateful to be living in a country where the practise of moral/empathetic capitalism is prevalent and aspects like national healthcare, minimum wage that changes depending on inflation, banking regulations and personal debt management are taken into consideration in the government. It certainly isn't perfect and often politicians will choose to turn a blind eye or choose to go against the grain for profit but it is somewhat reassuring that citizens here care deeply about them and will voice their concerns effectively to keep it that way. Sadly, it seems that in the US, unless you have lots of money, you can't really influence real change or be heard in government.
Student debt is ok because you'll be a millionaire eventually, it's the american dream after all
I find this to be a very generalised statement. While I agree with you that - much like Communism - both systems can be flawed, I often wonder if that would still be the case if those economic systems were properly implemented/practised in the first place. I do not believe that Soviet Communism was a true implementation of communism and I certainly do not believe that US Capitalism is a true implementation of capitalism.
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uhm where that quote comes from?
I don't think I ever write it lol.
Having said that you cannot dismiss them with
"They were not implemented correctly"
Which countries? Norway, Denmark, Switzerland? Maybe Austria?
Certainly not here in the UK.
Anyway, fuck capitalism! And most of all those that use it to disproportionately monopolise the world's resources! I think there is little as evil in human history as spurious arguments that justify the generation of gross inequalities, and the connected exploitation of people and other species. Fuck those beliefs.
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If you honestly believe in this you need to reevaluate your life and life perspective.
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There was never a time when capitalism was ever good
Rockefeller was an awful man. But historians seen him as the first billionaire who's a philanthropist.
Fast forward to now and you see these very same people burning down the rain forest.
Rockefeller was an awful man. But historians seen him as the first billionaire who's a philanthropist.
Fast forward to now and you see these very same people burning down the rain forest.
In how many western countries do you have to take out a private loan and end up with bailiffs at your door if you don't pay, so you have to go work a shit tier job? Even in the UK, which isn't perfect by a long shot, student loans basically functions as a graduate tax not a traditional loan. That's way different from how it is in the US. So, yeah, Fuck US capitalism, whose failures, to me, are ones of redistribution, like I said, other capitalist countries have already solved a lot of the problems in the US that are just blanket blamed on capitalism.
I agree with this. While pure capitalism is bad, capitalism within a socialistic democracy or democratic socialsim system can work.
It works by exploiting third world countries and workers. It's all still capitalism and it's all still bad.
I am fairly sure it could be mitigated and removed completly if all countries went the same route, because the only thing that would work, if this wouldn't is that each country become self sutainable with domestic production, which would lead to some countries cease in development and some starve.
Or is there something else you see that could fix it? Since what I think is that my suggestion is that we have heavy regulations for these companies that force them to do moral choices.
That wouldn't happen. Capitalism needs an underclass to work in order to extract money and labor. To create an underclass, capitalism exacerbates existing divisions and it would be very easy to exploit the differences in countries. So, not all countries would be on the same level. In fact, capitalists would make sure of that. The US has overthrown socdem governments and replaced them with right wingers and even fascists to maintain the uneven balance so that wealth can be extracted from those countries more easily.
Capitalism abhors equality.
Socialist revolution
Yeah the US sucks. No debating.
It's very easy though imagine a country with a socialist system that exploits poorer counties to enrich itself. Comparing perfect socialism to US capitalism is a slam dunk argument, but that's probably not how things play out in reality. If we're going just off the perfect versions of systems then I can imagine a world full of perfect soc dem systems too.
Billionaires shouldn't exist, but I think people should still be allowed to become millionaires.
I mean, 20 years of working at $100,000 and saving/investing will get you in the millions for sure.
and, what about if you start a company? As long as your employees all have great healthcare, maybe one day provided by the US government, and that your employees are paid a proper ratio of earnings, then go ahead and be rich.
But if you're making 1000 times what your least paid employee makes, then we gonna tax the fuck outta you.
we just need to enforce our rules, and make sure we have some sort of estate/inheritance tax.
I mean, 20 years of working at $100,000 and saving/investing will get you in the millions for sure.
and, what about if you start a company? As long as your employees all have great healthcare, maybe one day provided by the US government, and that your employees are paid a proper ratio of earnings, then go ahead and be rich.
But if you're making 1000 times what your least paid employee makes, then we gonna tax the fuck outta you.
we just need to enforce our rules, and make sure we have some sort of estate/inheritance tax.
People inherently know all of this, but conveniently seem to forget it all when it comes to actually criticizing capitalism. The propaganda is strong, and a lot of people don't give a fuck about disparity as long as they get their piece.
Danish students get $900 each month, that they don't have to pay back. The only requirement is that they don't live with their parents.
In Germany you have to prove that your parents don't have enough money to support you and after the studies you have to pay back half of the money but not more than €10,000. Last year only 15% of the students got financial support. German bureaucracy is a beast. At least there are no more tuition fees, only a semester fee of €250.
Your "perfect" socdem system cannot exist because the capitalism part of it will make sure it won't. You are trying to have capitalism without capitalism.
Even if I were to accept that premise, capitalism is literally killing us right now. It is the main driving force behind climate change.
I think it's more that our governments are failing to properly regulate and punish those who contribute the most to climate change. Incentives need to be radically realigned but the political will isn't there
Good morning, everybody.
Quick Reminder that "the most sensibly regulated system of capitalism" also has two million Americans who do not have access to basic plumbing and running water. But no, America doesn't have third-world conditions because gyms and something something freedom.
These two are connected because there's a large political body that believes all of this should be handled by companies, in case this has to be said. You know, the most sensibly regulated force? The same systems of regulations that had the 2008 crash and the Equifax breach and nobody has gone to jail?
Quick Reminder that "the most sensibly regulated system of capitalism" also has two million Americans who do not have access to basic plumbing and running water. But no, America doesn't have third-world conditions because gyms and something something freedom.
These two are connected because there's a large political body that believes all of this should be handled by companies, in case this has to be said. You know, the most sensibly regulated force? The same systems of regulations that had the 2008 crash and the Equifax breach and nobody has gone to jail?
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Yeah and that's your opinion. I wouldn't say that for sure. Someone could similarly say that a perfect socialist revolution could never occur for a whole ton of reasons. At least for me, we have a lot of soc dem countries right now, they are not perfect by any means, which haven't reverted into US capitalism. You can totally have capitalist countries which are very pro-worker and have huge safety nets. And a lot of these countries are leaning towards providing even more socialist policies.
I'm strictly talking about tuition fees here. Sure, it could be better, but most of Europe just doesn't operate in the same way as the US.
No system is perfect.
I'd rather improve capitalism with more protections/safety nets for the citizens, than blow up the system completely
I'd rather improve capitalism with more protections/safety nets for the citizens, than blow up the system completely
The political will is not there because of capitalism. A small, but damning example of that is regulatory capture in which businesses place their people in regulatory entities that are supposed to oversee those businesses.
Those soc dem countries still depend on the exploitation of third world countries. They still extract wealth from the ones who need it and coalesce that wealth into the hands of a few while still being "pro-worker".
Also, it's quite funny that we have to have safety nets in the first place. Capitalism is so horrible, we have to have policies set in place so that it doesn't completely destroy people.
That's been a problem in the US, ergo we need reform. Not every American capitalist is a Republican or anarchy capitalist.
Again, true. But I don't see you offering any valid solutions to solve it where capitalism failed. These are immensely difficult problems to solve and are constantly being fought.
Where's the receipts that socialism will solve these ills? History shows us it is no match for capitalism at its height of power. What's changed the game to make allow socialist to overcome it successfully? Prior socialist countries tried and failed, and many were as bad or worse at governing than the US was.
That's not entirely untrue, but you're omitting the fact current and past socialist countries don't have a stellar track record on that front, either.
That's empty rhetoric that's never going to happen, not an actual answer. As well as being super vague, given how diverse socialism is as an ideology. Do you want another Reign of Terror, which occurred after the French Revolution? Recreate a state like the Soviet Union? A stateless anarchist collective? Something entirely new? Or are you happy letting others fill in the blanks because that's as far as it goes?
So, we agree these soc dem countries are not perfect and still have problems. I agree with this, but like I said, exploitation of these countries, to me, isn't a strictly capitalism problem, I could see this happening with a socialist society very easily as well.
I disagree that the presence of a safely net shows that something is inherently bad.
I'm not going to go too far down that rabbit hole, but the perception here in the US was that they were credible enough workers revolutions, enough to scare the daylights out of the American elites
And the perfect socialsm revolution can't exist due to humans then since there will ALWAYS be corruption and ill will.
And what is funny that there is a need for regulations? I mean, are you arguing for anarchy where there are NO laws or anything in place? Safety nets and regulations isn't bad to have.
Exploitation is inherent in capitalism though. One of the goals of socialism is mutual aid, not exploitation. From the those according to their ability to those according to their need.
There will always be those things, yes, but I don't want to have a system that rewards those behaviors like capitalism does.
To the extent of regulations under capitalism, I'd say it does.
I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be regulations, just pointing out that in order to make capitalism somewhat tolerable, you have to have so many backstops so that it doesn't entirely engulf us.
I do subscribe to anarcho-socialism, though. Time to rid ourselves of unjust hierarchies!
How do you propose to ensure equality under pure direct democracy? The latter tends to hamper minority rights because of "votes".
California has direct democracy and the citizens haven't exactly been a beacon of goodwill for minority residents.
This depends on what you mean by exploitation. I personally don't believe that all profit is exploitation. And, ultimately mutual aid is something I want my government system to try and bring about and promote. And even then, mutual aid for who? The people within your system or also those outside of it. My point is that goals that be very differently interpreted by different people.
"To the extent of regulations under capitalism, I'd say it does."' I'd need you to elaborate on this. I don't quite understand.