OP
OP
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
In principle, I don't see any reason why something analogous to RTX IO couldn't be implemented on a Switch-like device, especially if they upgrade to one of the newer, PCIe based memory card formats like SD Express. There'll probably be some sort of overhead, as it appears to basically be offloading some decompression to the GPU, but I don't think we even have any good numbers for it on PC yet, as it's not really out in the wild.
It's probably worth bearing in mind that PCs get more out of this sort of thing than consoles, though, as I believe RTX IO allows data to bypass main RAM and go straight to VRAM. That's not really a consideration on Switch which has a unified memory pool.
OP
OP
I feel like mandating game installation in the internal flash storage would require Nintendo to have a minimum of 256 GB of internal flash storage since mandated game installation does take a good chunk of storage size, which I'm not sure Nintendo's willing to do without increasing the price.
That's "Dark Knight" AKA Bruce Wayne, the "Black Knight" is Dane Whitman
Now you know!
In either case, Nintendo is in some predicament to deal with for such a device, even if they make a very powerful portable console it would be missing in some other aspect or have a caveat
OP
OP
I'm sorry if I sound really repetitive, but if Macronix's 48-layer 3D NAND memory replaces the XtraROM used in all Nintendo Switch Cards, then I don't mind having the internal flash storage for the DLSS model be UFS 2.1, considering Macronix's 48-layer 3D NAND memory is roughly comparable to UFS 2.1, assuming Macronix's 48-layer 3D NAND memory is comparable to Samsung's 48-layer 3D NAND memory found in the Samsung PM953.
I had a midsummer dream about Atlantis, the lost continent and the lost Nintendo handheld. Atlantis was incredible but it was run by a strongman with a strong arm. He ruled Atlantis with an iron fist. It turned out to be Nvidia CEO, Jensen. He was so wealthy because Atlantis, the handheld, not his island continent, was somehow *his* idea and not Nintendo R&D. Atlantis had no Nvidia GPU powering it though, but it did have a StrongARM CPU. The GPU was a mystery. I got ahold of another Atlantis handheld, cracked it open to see the motherboard. Immediately I saw the StrongARM cpu chip, but then noticed two more ASICS on the motherboard. They were labeled Oberon and Puck. I immediately knew that Nintendo must have acquired the chipset Atari was working on for the Jaguar II. This was at least 5 times better than the PS1, although it was no Dreamcast it *was* better 3D hardware than what ended up going into the original Nintendo DS and it seemed comparable to the PSP. I was shocked and I began collecting as many Atlanti handhelds as possible and the dream was over.
Ha ha what the hell? Fire up the Animus we're getting the rest of this.
guise! I think I found a better comparison than the GT 1030: a GT 750!
with 4GB of VRAM! :O
definitely an anomally. if you told me these were made for gaming cafes in china, that would be very believable. boasting 512 maxwell cores at 1GHz, it's more powerful than the GT 1030, and with a usable amount of VRAM
with 4GB of VRAM! :O
definitely an anomally. if you told me these were made for gaming cafes in china, that would be very believable. boasting 512 maxwell cores at 1GHz, it's more powerful than the GT 1030, and with a usable amount of VRAM
But I knew in the dream that the CPU in Atlantis was running at 200 MHz and what I was seeing on its screen were games that a 16 MHz ARM CPU and beefed up SNES-like 2D hardware could not run.
It was at least Panasonic M2/PSP/Dreamcast/3DS class graphics. Halfway between N64 and Gamecube, on a chipset designed for a cancelled Atari home console that would've released around 1996, the same time frame as the Atlantis. LOL.
Seriously though, I loved my GBA and Gamecube.
Ha ha what the hell? Fire up the Animus we're getting the rest of this.
LMAO :)
brainchild
Congratulations mate. You're seriously one of the coolest dudes I've interacted with online and I'm almost 40. All the best to you in your future endeavours!
Congratulations mate. You're seriously one of the coolest dudes I've interacted with online and I'm almost 40. All the best to you in your future endeavours!
I watched a video about the Playstation Vita TV (to join the two different names that the thing had), and even though it was not a commercial success, it physically represents what I'd want to see in a Switch TV.
I'm I'm completely honest, make it slightly larger, put a cartridge port and USB port on the front. On the back we get a slot for storage expansion, two more USB ports, an ethernet port, hdmi, and power.
It's a slick little box.
I'm I'm completely honest, make it slightly larger, put a cartridge port and USB port on the front. On the back we get a slot for storage expansion, two more USB ports, an ethernet port, hdmi, and power.
It's a slick little box.
that definitely exists somewhere in Nintendo. probably shelved at this point. though they could Vita TV it and use it as a dumping ground for leftover parts
I think, because it would use 90% the same electrical components as the Switch, they could manufacture about 500k of them and launch it in a single market. Maybe through just one or two retailers. Think if it's a North America and Gamestop and/or Best Buy exclusive. Package it in its own box without a controller for $100 or $150 or whatever and let the retailers bundle them with a controller and/or memory card or not. Minor amounts of advertising at most. Possibly package them with a joycon charging rail or manufacture more packaged charging grips to go out to the test retailers as well.
The microSD Express cards Lexar is releasing next year are also rather comparable, at least in sequential read speeds. Unfortunately they haven't announced anything in terms of random reads, and the only thing I can find on the underlying SM2708 controller chip is that it's A2 compliant - which is great for SD cards, but pales in comparison to UFS. Even eMMC 5.1 has over triple A2's 4000 minimum IOPS. Of course, the SM2708 could support over 4000 IOPS; that's just the only guarantee I could find.
I'm confused as to why he was outside though lol
Also, nice find, thanks for sharing!
He always does beauty shots outside. It's a nice change of pace from the usual warehouse workbench
As Thraktor clearly laid out, the removable media are declining sharply thanks to the cloud and large internal storage. Any new removable standards introduced in this climate can hardly reach the critical mass. The UFS Association's decision to build a card format on top of the embedded format therefore was rather inspired—any mobile devices with UFS lanes (that's, like, the most of them, including Orin) can easily support the cards as a result. The combined scale of eUFS and UFS Card gives the latter a leg up in the competition for the shrinking removable media market.
As mentioned above, the scale of UFS standard may be larger than you think. Aside from the phone market, UFSA also seems to be targeting the automobiles, drones, and IoT/edge AI devices. The spread of the 5G network could further heighten the demand of faster storage to handle the increasing content sizes.
This is to say that the current hold microSD (UHS-I) has on the mobile market may not hold. As for the adoption of SD Express, I'm guessing (not an expert) that the latter's PCIe requirement is going to be difficult to support on most mobile devices. (That said, TX2 and Xavier do support PCIe, and I supposed Orin too. So the door isn't completely closed for the SD Express to be on Switch.)
The UFS Card form factor is royalty-free, unlike the SD, which has a fee on every single card.
I can see that. There's no stopping them! Thanks for answering.
This does give me hope that it would be an option to use (if CFExpress isn't) on a device like the switch. Nintendo has large enough weight to throw, and game consoles although slower to reach a large amount of units do so at a pace and have a more dedicated following. So a game console, other devices like the ones you mentioned, and use cases that extend farther can help for keeping its relevance. While that is all said, it becomes more of a "Will they throw that weight around?"As mentioned above, the scale of UFS standard may be larger than you think. Aside from the phone market, UFSA also seems to be targeting the automobiles, drones, and IoT/edge AI devices. The spread of the 5G network could further heighten the demand of faster storage to handle the increasing content sizes.
This is to say that the current hold microSD (UHS-I) has on the mobile market may not hold. As for the adoption of SD Express, I'm guessing (not an expert) that the latter's PCIe requirement is going to be difficult to support on most mobile devices. (That said, TX2 and Xavier do support PCIe, and I supposed Orin too. So the door isn't completely closed for the SD Express to be on Switch.)
I do hope Nintendo put a lot of research into the expandable storage in future proofing, and considered it as one of the priorities.
I also hope that developers did ask them to include faster storage/ faster storage options, as in it is possible to upgrade for faster storage for the platform. Nintendo is asking around for developer input, and hope this isn't an area that was omitted outside of the obvious things like more RAM, more CPU Cores (and faster ones at that), etc.
I have a feeling that it may be less mentioned, but not completely ignored.
While people talk about other things, storage is really the thing that I think is a completely unknown factor.
Poll results update with added deadline
OP
OP
And that's probably the absolute best case scenario for the DLSS model.
Anyway, excuse me for being off-topic, but as of 12 July 2021 at 22:35 (UTC-07:00 or PDT), so far, the poll results for who should create the 2nd OT thread is:
- 28 votes (or 73.68%) for me
- 10 votes (or 26.32%) for someone else
I've decided to set the deadline for the poll at 20 July 2021 at 05:00 (UTC-07:00 or PDT) to make sure anyone else who wants to participate can do so.
If you haven't participated and want to do so, click on here to access the poll.
But that again doesnt go against my points, that whats point of OLED revision with old hardware when around year later we getting revision with new hardware and that will not be new main model, and that having stronger revision 5.5 years after platform launch in way is getting late.
Yes, but COVID effect could actually means that Nintendo changed plans and that from releasing "Pro" for instance this or last year they simply decided to release Switch 2 in 2023. because maybe they think its now too late for "Pro".
What Nintendo tells about its general thinking/plans at investors meetings is not always relevant because plans are changing, especially with Covid effect.
What part exactly is not true?
I disagree it doesnt influence the other at all.
Its possible that OS will be replaced with Switch 2, but no chance with revision
I voted for you, you've been doing a stellar job with it.And that's probably the absolute best case scenario for the DLSS model.
Anyway, excuse me for being off-topic, but as of 12 July 2021 at 22:35 (UTC-07:00 or PDT), so far, the poll results for who should create the 2nd OT thread is:
- 28 votes (or 73.68%) for me
- 10 votes (or 26.32%) for someone else
I've decided to set the deadline for the poll at 20 July 2021 at 05:00 (UTC-07:00 or PDT) to make sure anyone else who wants to participate can do so.
If you haven't participated and want to do so, click on here to access the poll.
Thank you, I've heard of the 3D layout for Macronix new game cards. I'll look at Thraktor's post that I missed too.
This is ultimately what it boils down to, but with the caveat that it's impossible to do so in a performant matter within the Switch's power envelope. Though I'll also add - you said part of the stack, but they always say it's the entire stack. I'm over my head in all of this and can't really describe it better.
This is ultimately an assumption. When PlayStation and Xbox outgrew the read speeds of optical discs, they simply stopped running games off of them. Nintendo could similarly decide that performant physical media is too costly.
Of course, there's more factors working against them than there were for Sony and Microsoft eight years ago; performant flash storage is still more costly today per gigabyte than hard drives were back then, and the meager 64 GB of storage in the OLED model is the first time Nintendo's gone above 32 GB. Forcing installs would simply require them to both increase the internal storage capacity and readily allow comparable expandable storage, which has been a point of debate in this thread because there just isn't an obvious path forward (though the more I read Thraktor's posts, the more I get won over into the UFS camp). Allowing games to be run off the cards has big advantages, but it'll be weighed against whatever pressure Nintendo is feeling to up their storage speeds.
The dream scenario would be for internal storage, expandable storage, and physical game media to meet or exceed 800 MB/s in read speeds, but I'm not counting on it.
I fall into that and can tell you the physical-only life is a myth. I've filled my storage with game updates and DLC alone - never mind digital-only titles and save data. I could probably get by without storing everything on the Switch*, but that limits the appeal of a portable system.
*In fact, I was, and it was actually the desire to try out homebrew that led to me buying an SD card, not an absolute need for more storage. But it was starting to bug me then, and I've only accumulated more updates and games since buying the card; it's hard to say whether I would've just bought one anyway if I had no desire to mod my Switch.
Last edited:
So the FCC filing for the Switch OLED (HEG-001) is up, but only test-report results seem to be included.
No internal or extenal photos yet, as per Nintendo's short-term (180 days) confidentiality request.
Here are the general equipment info/specs (mostly radio frequency/power ratings) as per FCC reports, compared to the currect Switch model (HAC-001):
I think there's not much to see here, but folks more specialized in the field might find something interesting.
General (non-scientific) observations:
No internal or extenal photos yet, as per Nintendo's short-term (180 days) confidentiality request.
Here are the general equipment info/specs (mostly radio frequency/power ratings) as per FCC reports, compared to the currect Switch model (HAC-001):
I think there's not much to see here, but folks more specialized in the field might find something interesting.
General (non-scientific) observations:
- The Switch OLED engineering prototype was received by the FCC on July 31st 2020
- To be mass-produced in China & Vietnam
- I don't know if it's engineering prototype-specific, but the Switch OLED is listed to be using an LDS antenna vs a PCB antenna for the current model (not sure of the difference beetween the two)
Last edited:
So the FCC filing for the Switch OLED (HEG-001) is up, but only test report results seem to be included.
No internal or extenal photos yet as per Nintendo's short-term (180 days) confidentiality request.
Here are the general equipment info/specs (mostly radio frequency/power ratings) as per FCC reports, compared to the currect Switch model (HAC-001):
I think there's not much to see here, but folks more specialized in the field might find something interesting.
General observations:
- The Switch OLED engineering prototype was received by the FCC on July 31st 2020
- To be mass-produced in China & Vietnam
- I don't know if it's engineering prototype-specific, but the Switch OLED is listed to be using an LDS antenna Vs a PCB antenna for the current model (not sure of the difference beetween the two)
«TE's use of laser direct structuring (LDS) antenna and product technology can save valuable space in your application by integrating high frequency, mechanical and electrical functionality into one component. Laser structuring enables 3-dimensional (3D) design/routing capability, versus the limiting 2-dimensional (2D) capability on a printed circuit board (PCB). LDS technology also allows for improved antenna performance because antennas can be placed in the design where they have more room for better bandwidth and efficiency. LDS is a three-step process. First, the antenna is molded in a standard single shot mold using one of the LDS resins. Second, the desired pattern is directly structured onto the antenna by the 3D laser system. Finally, the pattern is plated using industry-standard methods where the plating adheres to the plastic only where the plastic has been activated by the laser, thus creating a conductive pattern.»
Custom-Designed Antennas
TE offers a wide array of customized antenna solutions to accommodate the mechanical constraints of your application.
www.te.com
Even though I'm new here I find this very awesome to read! I wish you the best of luck!
«TE's use of laser direct structuring (LDS) antenna and product technology can save valuable space in your application by integrating high frequency, mechanical and electrical functionality into one component. Laser structuring enables 3-dimensional (3D) design/routing capability, versus the limiting 2-dimensional (2D) capability on a printed circuit board (PCB). LDS technology also allows for improved antenna performance because antennas can be placed in the design where they have more room for better bandwidth and efficiency. LDS is a three-step process. First, the antenna is molded in a standard single shot mold using one of the LDS resins. Second, the desired pattern is directly structured onto the antenna by the 3D laser system. Finally, the pattern is plated using industry-standard methods where the plating adheres to the plastic only where the plastic has been activated by the laser, thus creating a conductive pattern.»
Custom-Designed Antennas
TE offers a wide array of customized antenna solutions to accommodate the mechanical constraints of your application.
Cheers for that.
So it's a space-saving alternative (vs PCB) that -potentially- allows for improved performance.
Better wireless connectivity, this may be what Dakhil was hoping forSo the FCC filing for the Switch OLED (HEG-001) is up, but only test report results seem to be included.
No internal or extenal photos yet as per Nintendo's short-term (180 days) confidentiality request.
Here are the general equipment info/specs (mostly radio frequency/power ratings) as per FCC reports, compared to the currect Switch model (HAC-001):
I think there's not much to see here, but folks more specialized in the field might find something interesting.
General (non-scientific) observations:
- The Switch OLED engineering prototype was received by the FCC on July 31st 2020
- To be mass-produced in China & Vietnam
- I don't know if it's engineering prototype-specific, but the Switch OLED is listed to be using an LDS antenna Vs a PCB antenna for the current model (not sure of the difference beetween the two)
I've a question for this line of thinking: wouldn't 2023 feel rather early for a successor if a "Pro" had released in 2021? Now sure, it didn't (and won't) release this year, but if the idea is that Nintendo was in fact planning on doing so - wouldn't that mean they weren't planning for a successor until likely 2024 at least, if not longer? I don't think they'd accelerate their entire platform lifecycle because they had to delay a revision.
I'm not specialized in the field, but Googling the antenna stuff gives hope they've improved the wireless performance, perhaps significantly. LDS can offer great performance; the higher gains are interesting, but higher isn't always better, and I'd rather leave an actual expert to comment on that matter.So the FCC filing for the Switch OLED (HEG-001) is up, but only test report results seem to be included.
No internal or extenal photos yet as per Nintendo's short-term (180 days) confidentiality request.
Here are the general equipment info/specs (mostly radio frequency/power ratings) as per FCC reports, compared to the currect Switch model (HAC-001):
I think there's not much to see here, but folks more specialized in the field might find something interesting.
General observations:
- The Switch OLED engineering prototype was received by the FCC on July 31st 2020
- To be mass-produced in China & Vietnam
- I don't know if it's engineering prototype-specific, but the Switch OLED is listed to be using an LDS antenna Vs a PCB antenna for the current model (not sure of the difference beetween the two)
It's also more expensive. It wouldn't seem very much like Nintendo to spring for it and not reap the benefits.
Nintendo also stopped using the optical media they were forced into to go back to cartridges. Cartridges align perfectly with Nintendo's view of the gaming market which includes the best ease of use for the mass market. Today there's nothing better than a cartridge that you can put in your console right after having bought it and start playing immediately: instant pick up and play. I don't see them changing them for other solutions when it has kept them market leader until now on handhelds and them being market leader for 2,5 years with their hybrid.
Nintendo already have a solution to maximize the internal storage usage: you can auto remove old games to install newer ones. 64 GB is huge and is there so that every game can be installed on the system without requiring an additional SD card, which wasn't the case with 32 GB. Also, flash storage have the tendancy to have reduced performance when it reaches near full capacity, I think because of how NAND technology is designed.
I think Nintendo will definitely upgrade storage speeds, but limit it to what Macronix cards will be able to do. If these game cards can even reach 400 MB/s, it will be good enough. I'm sure they'd rather use 1 GB RAM as IO cache than add a costly storage solution. We'll see.
Most people on the market don't have tons of games for their system, even with 10 games on cartridges, 32 GB space is far more than necessary.
GaaS though often require an SD card, I don't know how much storage Fortnite is taking.
I think this would better clear it up a bit more:
Unictron | Unictron Technologies Corporation
www.sanav.com
I believe this makes it clearer than the other google results. It kept giving me what it is but not what it is for/ what it is meant to solve 😅
But, this would mean that the other model would also have better wireless connectivity.
After OLED revision announcement its not any more that 100% certain that "Pro" rumors were actually rumors about stronger Switch revision and not about Switch successor that get mixed with OLED revision by leakers. If plan was to release "Pro" this year than successor could be released in 2024. (or later) for instance, point is that Covid could effect plans about stronger revision and successor. Point is that "Pro" should carry Switch platform going forward until succesor launch because current Switch hardware is getting outdated and Switch game IQ and performance are getting worse especially with next gen launch, and having such a revision at end of next year would be maybe too late and Nintendo could easily say "better we go full Switch successor in 2023. instead stronger revision in 2022".
I mean maybe OLED revision didnt exist at all before Covid, or like I wrote maybe those rumors about stronger Switch revision were actually early leaked infos about next gen Switch, at this point nothing is certain and all options are very wide open, but at this point I think we are not getting "Pro" next year but we are getting full next gen Switch launch in 2023. because that make most sense now.
These cards are way slower than I thought. And with internal memory having having similar load times, the emmc is probably throttled. They should really change that
So the internal memory must be throttled to not completely blow the cards out of the water, but why the fuck are the cards so slow?
off-topic....ish, but I suspect the storage of the OLED model would be this
H26M74002HMR from SK Hynix, or the 64GB version of what is in the Lite which is different.
but it should be a reasonable assumption.
and here on page 9, we see the performance of the former.
edit: does not seem to work, but it is 280MB/s read, 170MB/s write for the 64GB variant.
Current Switch uses SK Hynix H26M62002JPR 32 GB eMMC, according to the homebrew page, while the Lite uses Samsung KLMBG2JETD-B041 32 GB eMMC. Here it gives some info, but that is the 64GB variant, so it would be slower than the listed 330MB/s read and 200MB/s write.
Note: these are not what the switch speed is at, however.
H26M74002HMR from SK Hynix, or the 64GB version of what is in the Lite which is different.
but it should be a reasonable assumption.
and here on page 9, we see the performance of the former.
edit: does not seem to work, but it is 280MB/s read, 170MB/s write for the 64GB variant.
Current Switch uses SK Hynix H26M62002JPR 32 GB eMMC, according to the homebrew page, while the Lite uses Samsung KLMBG2JETD-B041 32 GB eMMC. Here it gives some info, but that is the 64GB variant, so it would be slower than the listed 330MB/s read and 200MB/s write.
Note: these are not what the switch speed is at, however.
Mandating game installation could also concern physical game cards. Nothing prevent 3rd party Devs to use smaller game cards as they have done with the OG model and PS4/PS5 games. Having 256GB of internal storage could be feasible in a $500 model in 2021 and in a $300-350 model in 2023-2024.
I don't see any advances in storage coming until the platform after the next one anyway. I thought that was the case even with most of the people crazy about m2 drives.
Full Mandatory installs are kind of overkill, but if a game as popular as gtav can do mandatory partial installs on PS3, I don't see why that can't be fit for a wide audience.
And I can see why supporting a massive speed increase of a single media might be more favourable than supporting a massive speed increase of three different media, especially when the internal type is already commonplace as ufs.
Remember Nintendo allowed a game as high profile as Dragon Quest X to be installed to a usb stick as standard. Nothing is going to be as awkward as that again
Last edited:
If Nintendo was willing to implement it, the OLEDswitch storage would no longer be emmc and they could have added more capacity.
It wouldn't have been too difficult to build a system to install a physical copy of the data into the storage with FW updates.
It didn't happen that way, though.
It wouldn't have been too difficult to build a system to install a physical copy of the data into the storage with FW updates.
It didn't happen that way, though.
Good news! Thanks for sharing. Ever since it became apparent that the OLED model got a new enclosure I'd been waiting to hear about the antenna changes. For those who are more visual, this is what the LDS antenna may look like in a phone:
And here's the PCB antenna in the current Switch model:
Last edited: